Is America a racist nation?

[Typical Lax Dad]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

I am not hiring a tradesman that’s not certified to work on my house… I don’t care who recommends him/her.

[youthathletics]

Because there is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

You understand this is an arbitrary difference, yeah? Someone in the Government pulled this concept out of their *ss, and made it a thing.

This is not a free market choice. It was an arbitrary choice, made by a literal bureaucrat.

And the logic doesn't work: you're telling me the "reason" Academy grads get free tuition etc. is that they sign up to serve.

Yeah, so does the rest of the military. So.......

Take a look at the original GI Bill----everything from zero down payment loans, to free tuition and books, to vocational trainin. Well, only if you were a white soldier, sadly.

THAT is how you take care of our military. We did it with zero difficulty or hardship.

Apply this thought process to the American workforce, and add in a mandatory service component that starts immediately. We could turn the entire country around in a generation.

Instead? How would you rate how our current system is going?

I edited my post before you could reply....but does not change much.

And the logic doesn't work: you're telling me the "reason" Academy grads get free tuition etc. is that they sign up to serve.

Yeah, so does the rest of the military. So.......

I answered that with clarity. We can argue it is like that in every aspect of life, its why I drew the parallel about having a college degree and not having one, and how it handicapped that very same poor people argument you are making, which was NOT made up by a literal bureaucrat.

It seems like you are arguing for something currently unattainable in the US. I will say, we have seen progress made in the arena of NOT requiring a degree for many places of employmentalthough I wonder what the stats are on that.

[youthathletics]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Sounds like dropping degrees because labor is scarce, not because you could do just as well as an employer by not requiring a degree….

It’s like a low level club lacrosse team. You pick what’s leftover if you have to. You really don’t believe that the team is just as good but it pays the bills.

[youthathletics]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Still not a very good listener I see....just out for gotcha's. I never said no certification, that is you not listening....again. You can be an EE without a PE....but you don't know that, so you assumed and went off the deep end. YPreschool and Day care centers do not require a degree...damned near none of them have that level education. You sound stupid.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Still not a very good listener I see....just out for gotcha's. I never said no certification, that is you not listening....again. You can be an EE without a PE....but you don't know that, so you assumed and went off the deep end. You sound stupid.

Just like there have always been plenty of jobs not requiring a degree, right?

[a fan]

I answered that with clarity. We can argue it is like that in every aspect of life, its why I drew the parallel about having a college degree and not having one, and how it handicapped that very same poor people argument you are making, which was NOT made up by a literal bureaucrat.

Yes, but one is a decision made in the free market.

The other is a wholly Government-made decision to pick winners and losers unfairly. What started this conversation is that you, Kram, and OS are all beneficiaries of the Government largesse...and you're all telling me you're perfectly fine getting your checks from the government, and free tuition.....

...yet offering this same deal to all soldiers who serve is "a bridge too far" for you. In short, you're telling us: Government for MY pockets, not for yours, sorry mate, you're SOL.

All while claiming to be operating in a free market.

It seems like you are arguing for something currently unattainable in the US.

And yet every first world country does it.....offers free vocational training, health care, and Higher Ed.

And we did this ourselves after WWII for millions of soldiers. And added in no-down payment home loans to soldiers.

I guess they had magic beans that we no longer have in 2024.

[youthathletics]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Still not a very good listener I see....just out for gotcha's. I never said no certification, that is you not listening....again. You can be an EE without a PE....but you don't know that, so you assumed and went off the deep end. You sound stupid.

Just like there have always been plenty of jobs not requiring a degree, right?

Again with the not listening, it's all the time with you....the comparison was Enlisted vs Officer and College Degree vs No Degree as an example in my conversation with afan. But you butted in and phucked it all up as usua, providing zero input. You still sound stupid BTW.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I answered that with clarity. We can argue it is like that in every aspect of life, its why I drew the parallel about having a college degree and not having one, and how it handicapped that very same poor people argument you are making, which was NOT made up by a literal bureaucrat.

Yes, but one is a decision made in the free market.

The other is a wholly Government-made decision to pick winners and losers unfairly. What started this conversation is that you, Kram, and OS are all beneficiaries of the Government largesse...and you're all telling me you're perfectly fine getting your checks from the government, and free tuition.....

...yet offering this same deal to all soldiers who serve is "a bridge too far" for you. In short, you're telling us: Government for MY pockets, not for yours, sorry mate, you're SOL.

All while claiming to be operating in a free market.

It seems like you are arguing for something currently unattainable in the US.

And yet every first world country does it.....offers free vocational training, health care, and Higher Ed.

And we did this ourselves after WWII for millions of soldiers. And added in no-down payment home loans to soldiers.

I guess they had magic beans that we no longer have in 2024.

We would get a huge societal return. Same is true for early childhood education, summer programs and post high school programs. The money we spend on housing prisoners could be much better spent. Funding a prison systems is a unproductive use of cash. We are being sub-optimized.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Still not a very good listener I see....just out for gotcha's. I never said no certification, that is you not listening....again. You can be an EE without a PE....but you don't know that, so you assumed and went off the deep end. You sound stupid.

Just like there have always been plenty of jobs not requiring a degree, right?

Again with the not listening, it's all the time with you....the comparison was Enlisted vs Officer and College Degree vs No Degree as an example in my conversation with afan. But you butted in and phucked it all up as usua, providing zero input. You still sound stupid BTW.

The government could easily apply it to all servicemembers...not just officers..... just like dropping a degree requirements for jobs, right? It would actually be easier for the military. Like AFAN pointed out.... we used to pay for college.... you aren't this stupid

[youthathletics]

I answered that with clarity. We can argue it is like that in every aspect of life, its why I drew the parallel about having a college degree and not having one, and how it handicapped that very same poor people argument you are making, which was NOT made up by a literal bureaucrat.

Yes, but one is a decision made in the free market.

The other is a wholly Government-made decision to pick winners and losers unfairly. What started this conversation is that you, Kram, and OS are all beneficiaries of the Government largesse...and you're all telling me you're perfectly fine getting your checks from the government, and free tuition.....

...yet offering this same deal to all soldiers who serve is "a bridge too far" for you. In short, you're telling us: Government for MY pockets, not for yours, sorry mate, you're SOL.

All while claiming to be operating in a free market.

It seems like you are arguing for something currently unattainable in the US.

And yet every first world country does it.....offers free vocational training, health care, and Higher Ed.

And we did this ourselves after WWII for millions of soldiers. And added in no-down payment home loans to soldiers.

I guess they had magic beans that we no longer have in 2024.

Why would we not want our government to provide Officers for the strongest military on the globe? And to make sure those candidates have the sustained identifiable characteristics that support being an officer for our military. I really do not understand your argument, even after all this. It's like you just want to have everything like a walmart and we can just show up and go shopping for whatever it is we need at that moment with no sacrifice, no commitment, no money....nothing, just a whim.

[youthathletics]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Still not a very good listener I see....just out for gotcha's. I never said no certification, that is you not listening....again. You can be an EE without a PE....but you don't know that, so you assumed and went off the deep end. You sound stupid.

Just like there have always been plenty of jobs not requiring a degree, right?

Again with the not listening, it's all the time with you....the comparison was Enlisted vs Officer and College Degree vs No Degree as an example in my conversation with afan. But you butted in and phucked it all up as usua, providing zero input. You still sound stupid BTW.

The government could easily apply it to all servicemembers...not just officers..... just like dropping a degree requirements for jobs, right? It would actually be easier for the military. Like AFAN pointed out.... we used to pay for college.... you aren't this stupid

I literally made that comparison/argument a few posts ago....thus proving, once again, you do not listen. You sure know how to terd sum chit up.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

You hiring a self taught electrical engineer with no certification?

You are making my point and should be arguing with afan. It's the difference I am drawing between Enlisted and Officer; Electrician vs Electrical Engineer. And I am not arguing that every profession requires no college, although if an EE does not have their PE, most are just book smart anyway, with little applied wisdom They just copy and paste someone elses work and finesse it to call it their own. It's how most contractors make all their money....change order from poor designs.

So you would hire an electrical engineer with no certification. Thanks #QFP

Anyway, these are good outcomes:

Many firms in the health care industry, motivated largely by how difficult it is to recruit qualified workers including pharmacists, home health aides and more, are dropping degree requirements for some job applicants.

In 2022, 12% of health care job postings required college degrees, compared to just 9.3% in 2023, according to ZipRecruiter.

"It makes sense because labor shortages are most acute in health care. It's where we see the largest numbers of unfilled job openings," Pollack said. "The difficulty filling vacancies is prompting employers to relax requirements where they can."

Education is another employment sector lowering college degree hurdles for job candidates. The move is one of many being taken by the schools to combat widespread teacher shortages.

Children are being taught by people without required teaching credentials

"People shouldn't pursue a four-year degree as a ticket to an immediate first job. It's meant to make people mobile past that first job,"

Was hoping to find the "folks without a degree can run circles around people with a degree" answer but didn't see it. You can advise your friends and family not to send their kids to college. Please do....

Still not a very good listener I see....just out for gotcha's. I never said no certification, that is you not listening....again. You can be an EE without a PE....but you don't know that, so you assumed and went off the deep end. You sound stupid.

Just like there have always been plenty of jobs not requiring a degree, right?

Again with the not listening, it's all the time with you....the comparison was Enlisted vs Officer and College Degree vs No Degree as an example in my conversation with afan. But you butted in and phucked it all up as usua, providing zero input. You still sound stupid BTW.

The government could easily apply it to all servicemembers...not just officers..... just like dropping a degree requirements for jobs, right? It would actually be easier for the military. Like AFAN pointed out.... we used to pay for college.... you aren't this stupid

I literally made that comparison/argument a few posts ago....thus proving, once again, you do not listen. You sure know how to terd sum chit up.

Just putting it out there.

[old salt]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

What's your point ? Be more specific.

What were your advantages when you went to USNA? Was it on your own ball in a free market? Open competition? I believe that was AFAN’s position. Did all of the elements you cited exist when you applied? A lot of poor kids there? A representative sample of minorities represented? I believe you are suggesting it was free because the goal was to have the plebe classes reflect the socio-economic makeup of the country at that time……as for today, I don’t personally know any poor or working class kids that went to an academy. The kids I know were all well off. 12 of them.

You do not have a representative sample size. Most of my company mates were public school kids from working class families. Most fathers had served, as enlisted men. 1 of 3 entrants in my class did not last until graduation. I was selected from a pool of qualified alternates & competitors, as were 2/3 of my classmates. I don't know the precise demographics. I doubt that data was collected. We were all male (by law) & racially diverse.

You said it academies were tuition free to attract kids from all socio-economic strata. I don’t believe that was true. Lots of ways to attract a sample closer to the population without making it free for everyone.

My philosophy has always been you don’t need to make “college” free for people that have the capacity to pay. Also, I don’t know of any highly selective school that admits kids that don’t meet admission requirements. Do you? You did mention the black football player that failed out of USNA. Not sure why he was picked as an example. He must have been unqualified because only unqualified students fail out, right?

He was picked because he was not offered an extra "turnback" year like Army & AF Cadet FB & Lax players are.
Academic turnbacks have also been offered for diversity. I had a buddy/compaymate who received one & graduated after a 5th yr.
The Mid I cited would have been a 'two fer".

[Typical Lax Dad]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

What's your point ? Be more specific.

What were your advantages when you went to USNA? Was it on your own ball in a free market? Open competition? I believe that was AFAN’s position. Did all of the elements you cited exist when you applied? A lot of poor kids there? A representative sample of minorities represented? I believe you are suggesting it was free because the goal was to have the plebe classes reflect the socio-economic makeup of the country at that time……as for today, I don’t personally know any poor or working class kids that went to an academy. The kids I know were all well off. 12 of them.

You do not have a representative sample size. Most of my company mates were public school kids from working class families. Most fathers had served, as enlisted men. 1 of 3 entrants in my class did not last until graduation. I was selected from a pool of qualified alternates & competitors, as were 2/3 of my classmates. I don't know the precise demographics. I doubt that data was collected. We were all male (by law) & racially diverse.

You said it academies were tuition free to attract kids from all socio-economic strata. I don’t believe that was true. Lots of ways to attract a sample closer to the population without making it free for everyone.

My philosophy has always been you don’t need to make “college” free for people that have the capacity to pay. Also, I don’t know of any highly selective school that admits kids that don’t meet admission requirements. Do you? You did mention the black football player that failed out of USNA. Not sure why he was picked as an example. He must have been unqualified because only unqualified students fail out, right?

He was picked because he was not offered an extra "turnback" year like Army & AF Cadet FB & Lax players are.
Academic turnbacks have also been offered for diversity. I had a buddy/compaymate who received one & graduated after a 5th yr.
The Mid I cited would have been a 'two fer".

OK.

[old salt]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

I think you all are talking past one another....

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I sent kids to a public school and USNA, so I have a bit of skin in the game with this conversation and may be able to provide some input.

Do you have a more direct question.

Not to debate but most of the kids I know also went to “public” schools. It’s actually easier to go to many private schools than to pay the entry fee into Darien or Weston or New Canaan public schools.

my bad....while I did send my kids to public HS they also went to public colleges

You missed my point. Supposedly way back when OS matriculated, academies were free to ensure the class makeup reflected the population. I don't believe the class make up reflected the general population then and probably not now. Not a criticism just a reality. I really don't know a lot of poor people at the academies and a large chunk of people in this country are poor. Westchester County, Fairfield County, Bergen County, Louden County, Montgomery County public schools are NOT what most people thing of when they think of public schools. When Charter Schools are solutions in those communities, I may change my mind. The military as a whole probably has a better representation of the demographic makeup than most places in society. But I don't believe the make up of military academies are at parity with the general military population from a socio-economic standpoint. I may be wrong. If you have the data that says otherwise I will definitely take a look at it.

How 'bout you provide data that supports your theory.

[old salt]

Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

This taxpayer does not know what he's talking about.
Tuition assistance is for serving members.
The GI Bill can be used by serving members & vets, including military retirees.

[a fan]

Why would we not want our government to provide Officers for the strongest military on the globe? And to make sure those candidates have the sustained identifiable characteristics that support being an officer for our military. I really do not understand your argument, even after all this. It's like you just want to have everything like a walmart and we can just show up and go shopping for whatever it is we need at that moment with no sacrifice, no commitment, no money....nothing, just a whim.

How is it DMac and TLD got my point so easily, and you and Old Salt are just.....lost?

I'm not asking that they cut off Academies. I'm saying: why the F aren't we doing this will all our soldiers/veterans? We've done it before...and what happened?

We got the biggest economic boom the world has ever seen....all from the GI Bill. That bill directly sent my family on the economic trajectory that we're STILL benefitting from this very day. And you're telling me this is simply impossible.

I disagree.

Further, let me give you my second point, using your ideas and logic: Why would we not want our government to provide Engineers, teachers, and STEM workers et. al. for the strongest economy on the globe? And to make sure those candidates have the sustained identifiable characteristics that support being global economic leaders?

How's that? Does that help you understand my point?

Or are you telling me that the government ONLY needs to step in and provide education for people in the military?

[a fan]

Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

This taxpayer does not know what he's talking about.
Tuition assistance is for serving members.
The GI Bill can be used by serving members & vets, including military retirees.

Great. Thanks for the correction. Overall point still stands.

They still aren't getting the full ride. Not even close. My cousin is stuck with loans for nursing school. Served honorably.

This isn't fair.

And again: we executed the GI Bill up until 1956. And those Vets didn't serve for six years. Some just served for months. Who cares? They served.

You want better recruiting numbers? Advertise everything you get as as a soldier and a Veteran. All of it. And give them what our WWII troops got.

[Typical Lax Dad]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

I think you all are talking past one another....

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I sent kids to a public school and USNA, so I have a bit of skin in the game with this conversation and may be able to provide some input.

Do you have a more direct question.

Not to debate but most of the kids I know also went to “public” schools. It’s actually easier to go to many private schools than to pay the entry fee into Darien or Weston or New Canaan public schools.

my bad....while I did send my kids to public HS they also went to public colleges

You missed my point. Supposedly way back when OS matriculated, academies were free to ensure the class makeup reflected the population. I don't believe the class make up reflected the general population then and probably not now. Not a criticism just a reality. I really don't know a lot of poor people at the academies and a large chunk of people in this country are poor. Westchester County, Fairfield County, Bergen County, Louden County, Montgomery County public schools are NOT what most people thing of when they think of public schools. When Charter Schools are solutions in those communities, I may change my mind. The military as a whole probably has a better representation of the demographic makeup than most places in society. But I don't believe the make up of military academies are at parity with the general military population from a socio-economic standpoint. I may be wrong. If you have the data that says otherwise I will definitely take a look at it.

How 'bout you provide data that supports your theory.

The economic data is hard to come by. I just don’t know many poor kids at academies. Could be me.