JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

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MDlaxfan76
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

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youthathletics wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:59 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:14 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:08 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:39 pm
SCLaxAttack wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:30 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:13 pm Call it cynical, or sketchy, but I really feel like damned near everything associated with Trump and the trials, is giving the public a peak behind the curtain as to what takes place quite often...espeically in show biz and politics. It's almost as if its intentional to normalize shenanigans. Not giving Trump a pass at all.
Oh, you're giving Trump a pass all right. "Everybody does it." That'll be the new campaign line after he's found guilty and "DOJ has been weaponized against us" no longer works up MAGA enough.
I'll give youth a slight pass, at least for the moment ;) ...let's just say instead of "everybody does it", let's just accept his "quite often" to mean that some powerful celebrities have indeed proven to be entirely dysfunctional as human beings and downright sociopaths enabled by their money, celebrity and power to exercise all of their worst impulses. "show biz and politics" and sports and business...a percentage of all such have disgusting morals, like the population as a whole, it's just that celebrity, power and money make it easier.

Weinstein, Cosby, etc, etc...and absolutely Trump falls in this category of disgusting but enabled men. They've been increasingly getting exposed as such, and that's not 'normalizing', right? It's exposing them as the disgusting POS they really are, right?

That said, not sure who youth means as choosing to be "intentional to normalize shenanigans"...does he mean that Trump is seeking to "normalize" such? Surely not the prosecutors, right? Does he mean the news media? Ain't buying it unless he means Fox and NewsMax and AON.

Youth, look at the covers of The National Enquirer during the 2015-2016 campaign season. They had never before endorsed any candidate, never taken any side, and yet wrote the most disgusting and entirely and knowingly untrue stories about various political opponents of Trump, ridiculously fawning pieces about Trump...so, maybe you're saying, youth, that publications like that were trying to "normalize" ? As have Fox et al?

Back to 'everybody does it', that's absolutely NOT the case as most people really do have sound morals albeit we're all subject to temptation. The key is to make sound ethical judgments in the face of such temptation. And most people do, most of the time.

Trump has never done so. His only ethic is short term personal benefit.
Proving my point, TNI and all the other tabloids have survived on this tpe of stuff.....ask yourself "Hmmm....why do these types of outlets predominantly go to print as the first to break so many epic stories and have photos to back it up.....zactly". They are in the game...and guess what, we are getting a look under the hood....RIGHT NOW.
You need to take a look at the entirely false, downright fraudulent stories they ran during the 2015-16 cycle. They are NOT a legitimate news source at all, though they may break a story now and then with salacious behavior that is actually true.

They go to print first with such because other news orgs don't PAY for tattle tales and when someone wants to tattle and get paid, they're the top game in town. AND they print untrue garbage all the time too. Other orgs are more scrupulous or at least that's their self-professed and understood culture. They don't earn their viewers with most salacious, it's with most truthful. They don't always get that right, and they certainly are happy to break serious stories when they have the goods or believe they do, but it ain't these "checkbook journalists" like Pecker and crew.

EXCEPT when it's part of scheme to catch and kill for some expected quid pro quo benefit.

What we are "getting a look under the hood" at is how seedy and unethical this checkbook journalism game is. No concern for truth, just readership.
I almost feel like we might agree, but you want to make sure you don’t say it…. Mr. Klugscheisser 😉
Had to look that one up.

Which part do you agree with, which part, if any, not?

I'm happy to find agreement.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

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Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:30 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:14 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:08 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:39 pm
SCLaxAttack wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:30 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:13 pm Call it cynical, or sketchy, but I really feel like damned near everything associated with Trump and the trials, is giving the public a peak behind the curtain as to what takes place quite often...espeically in show biz and politics. It's almost as if its intentional to normalize shenanigans. Not giving Trump a pass at all.
Oh, you're giving Trump a pass all right. "Everybody does it." That'll be the new campaign line after he's found guilty and "DOJ has been weaponized against us" no longer works up MAGA enough.
I'll give youth a slight pass, at least for the moment ;) ...let's just say instead of "everybody does it", let's just accept his "quite often" to mean that some powerful celebrities have indeed proven to be entirely dysfunctional as human beings and downright sociopaths enabled by their money, celebrity and power to exercise all of their worst impulses. "show biz and politics" and sports and business...a percentage of all such have disgusting morals, like the population as a whole, it's just that celebrity, power and money make it easier.

Weinstein, Cosby, etc, etc...and absolutely Trump falls in this category of disgusting but enabled men. They've been increasingly getting exposed as such, and that's not 'normalizing', right? It's exposing them as the disgusting POS they really are, right?

That said, not sure who youth means as choosing to be "intentional to normalize shenanigans"...does he mean that Trump is seeking to "normalize" such? Surely not the prosecutors, right? Does he mean the news media? Ain't buying it unless he means Fox and NewsMax and AON.

Youth, look at the covers of The National Enquirer during the 2015-2016 campaign season. They had never before endorsed any candidate, never taken any side, and yet wrote the most disgusting and entirely and knowingly untrue stories about various political opponents of Trump, ridiculously fawning pieces about Trump...so, maybe you're saying, youth, that publications like that were trying to "normalize" ? As have Fox et al?

Back to 'everybody does it', that's absolutely NOT the case as most people really do have sound morals albeit we're all subject to temptation. The key is to make sound ethical judgments in the face of such temptation. And most people do, most of the time.

Trump has never done so. His only ethic is short term personal benefit.
Proving my point, TNI and all the other tabloids have survived on this tpe of stuff.....ask yourself "Hmmm....why do these types of outlets predominantly go to print as the first to break so many epic stories and have photos to back it up.....zactly". They are in the game...and guess what, we are getting a look under the hood....RIGHT NOW.
You need to take a look at the entirely false, downright fraudulent stories they ran during the 2015-16 cycle. They are NOT a legitimate news source at all, though they may break a story now and then with salacious behavior that is actually true.

They go to print first with such because other news orgs don't PAY for tattle tales and when someone wants to tattle and get paid, they're the top game in town. AND they print untrue garbage all the time too. Other orgs are more scrupulous or at least that's their self-professed and understood culture. They don't earn their viewers with most salacious, it's with most truthful. They don't always get that right, and they certainly are happy to break serious stories when they have the goods or believe they do, but it ain't these "checkbook journalists" like Pecker and crew.

EXCEPT when it's part of scheme to catch and kill for some expected quid pro quo benefit.

What we are "getting a look under the hood" at is how seedy and unethical this checkbook journalism game is. No concern for truth, just readership.
My old company banked TNI and Weekly World News when it was owned by Peter Callahan. We aren’t getting a look under the hood of tabloid journalism. We are getting the look at what a crooked politician and a corrupt media outlet will do to gain power. My old boss went to high school with Callahan and they were close personal friends. I was a junior guy and got to meet a lot of influential people in NYC. Those are now the “good old days”….
Agreed re red.

I do think this sort of thing of quid pro quo and buying salacious stories and flat out lying is pretty rampant in the worst of tabloid 'journalism'. And we've seen outlets like Fox and AON and Newsmx in large part adopt the same lack of ethics. Eyeballs, $ and power.
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

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cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:15 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:04 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:53 pm Anybody have an explanation how so many of our elected officials go to Washington with not even 2 nickels to rub together and a pot to pee in and 20 years later they are multi millionaires? And all on the pay of a US Congress person. They must clipping coupons and shopping at Aldi's. You can buy a can of green beans for like 50 cents. I guess a fair assumption for the American voter would involve the conclusion that most all of them are in on the grift. What some representative could do is share their secret of how they have become so wealthy. They must be extraordinary money managers. :D
Why do you seem so desperate to change the subject from this trial to Congress critters?
See thread title.
Well it should obvious to you. The critters that are after Trump have likely been engaged in grifting to benefit themselves. So your not the least bit curious how the Congress critters became rich? Maybe because they understand that greed is good in their world. I mean these same people that want trumps head on a platter are the same NYC/NYS politicians that kissed trumps ass and cashed all of his checks. You don't seem to remember that trump was the hero of The Apprentice crowd that loved watching trump be an ass wipe every week on TV. Why even the queen of evil gave trump googly eyes in that picture at trumps wedding. Spare me your spin. The undeniable fact is liberal Democrats loved trump before they hated trump. They hope that everybody forgets that. It didn't take long for you to erase it from your memory. ;)
Plenty interested in Congress self-dealing, insider trading etc.
Just has nothing to do with this legal trial.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

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MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:48 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:15 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:04 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:53 pm Anybody have an explanation how so many of our elected officials go to Washington with not even 2 nickels to rub together and a pot to pee in and 20 years later they are multi millionaires? And all on the pay of a US Congress person. They must clipping coupons and shopping at Aldi's. You can buy a can of green beans for like 50 cents. I guess a fair assumption for the American voter would involve the conclusion that most all of them are in on the grift. What some representative could do is share their secret of how they have become so wealthy. They must be extraordinary money managers. :D
Why do you seem so desperate to change the subject from this trial to Congress critters?
See thread title.
Well it should obvious to you. The critters that are after Trump have likely been engaged in grifting to benefit themselves. So your not the least bit curious how the Congress critters became rich? Maybe because they understand that greed is good in their world. I mean these same people that want trumps head on a platter are the same NYC/NYS politicians that kissed trumps ass and cashed all of his checks. You don't seem to remember that trump was the hero of The Apprentice crowd that loved watching trump be an ass wipe every week on TV. Why even the queen of evil gave trump googly eyes in that picture at trumps wedding. Spare me your spin. The undeniable fact is liberal Democrats loved trump before they hated trump. They hope that everybody forgets that. It didn't take long for you to erase it from your memory. ;)
Plenty interested in Congress self-dealing, insider trading etc.
Just has nothing to do with this legal trial.
I believe the two are more intertwined than you would admit. So many in Congress use their political positions to feather their nests. Trump has been feathering his nest, or was feathering it by donating money to the people that now want to see his ass in jail even though that will never happen and all of you know that already. I suppose at best trump will wind up with an ankle monitor. Now if your worst nightmare comes true and trump wins in November the dynamics take a drastic turn for the worst. That is when the hunters become the hunted. Whatta ya think a trump DoJ will do? No need to reply because you already know the answer.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:31 am I believe the two are more intertwined than you would admit. So many in Congress use their political positions to feather their nests. Trump has been feathering his nest, or was feathering it by donating money to the people that now want to see his ass in jail even though that will never happen and all of you know that already. I suppose at best trump will wind up with an ankle monitor. Now if your worst nightmare comes true and trump wins in November the dynamics take a drastic turn for the worst. That is when the hunters become the hunted. Whatta ya think a trump DoJ will do? No need to reply because you already know the answer.
Except this case is about paying off a porn star and then falsifying records in a conspiracy to help win an election.

If you wanna talk about politicians legally (and sometimes illegally) grifting money from supporters or via insider trading, you can make another thread.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:31 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:48 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:15 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:04 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:53 pm Anybody have an explanation how so many of our elected officials go to Washington with not even 2 nickels to rub together and a pot to pee in and 20 years later they are multi millionaires? And all on the pay of a US Congress person. They must clipping coupons and shopping at Aldi's. You can buy a can of green beans for like 50 cents. I guess a fair assumption for the American voter would involve the conclusion that most all of them are in on the grift. What some representative could do is share their secret of how they have become so wealthy. They must be extraordinary money managers. :D
Why do you seem so desperate to change the subject from this trial to Congress critters?
See thread title.
Well it should obvious to you. The critters that are after Trump have likely been engaged in grifting to benefit themselves. So your not the least bit curious how the Congress critters became rich? Maybe because they understand that greed is good in their world. I mean these same people that want trumps head on a platter are the same NYC/NYS politicians that kissed trumps ass and cashed all of his checks. You don't seem to remember that trump was the hero of The Apprentice crowd that loved watching trump be an ass wipe every week on TV. Why even the queen of evil gave trump googly eyes in that picture at trumps wedding. Spare me your spin. The undeniable fact is liberal Democrats loved trump before they hated trump. They hope that everybody forgets that. It didn't take long for you to erase it from your memory. ;)
Plenty interested in Congress self-dealing, insider trading etc.
Just has nothing to do with this legal trial.
I believe the two are more intertwined than you would admit. So many in Congress use their political positions to feather their nests. Trump has been feathering his nest, or was feathering it by donating money to the people that now want to see his ass in jail even though that will never happen and all of you know that already. I suppose at best trump will wind up with an ankle monitor. Now if your worst nightmare comes true and trump wins in November the dynamics take a drastic turn for the worst. That is when the hunters become the hunted. Whatta ya think a trump DoJ will do? No need to reply because you already know the answer.
Again, I think there's no relationship between this trial and any of the Dems, nor R's, about whom you complain. None.

Yes, I fully believe that if Trump wins, it'll be Trump Unbound, MAGA Unbound, full on authoritarian retribution within the following few years. Some in months. But that has nothing to do with Trumping criminally tried, other than that Trump actually is a criminal sociopath so expecting the worst from him is reasonable to do.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:25 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:31 am I believe the two are more intertwined than you would admit. So many in Congress use their political positions to feather their nests. Trump has been feathering his nest, or was feathering it by donating money to the people that now want to see his ass in jail even though that will never happen and all of you know that already. I suppose at best trump will wind up with an ankle monitor. Now if your worst nightmare comes true and trump wins in November the dynamics take a drastic turn for the worst. That is when the hunters become the hunted. Whatta ya think a trump DoJ will do? No need to reply because you already know the answer.
Except this case is about paying off a porn star and then falsifying records in a conspiracy to help win an election.

If you wanna talk about politicians legally (and sometimes illegally) grifting money from supporters or via insider trading, you can make another thread.
Exactly. Have at it.

Plenty of grist for that mill.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:39 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:31 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:48 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:15 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:04 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:53 pm Anybody have an explanation how so many of our elected officials go to Washington with not even 2 nickels to rub together and a pot to pee in and 20 years later they are multi millionaires? And all on the pay of a US Congress person. They must clipping coupons and shopping at Aldi's. You can buy a can of green beans for like 50 cents. I guess a fair assumption for the American voter would involve the conclusion that most all of them are in on the grift. What some representative could do is share their secret of how they have become so wealthy. They must be extraordinary money managers. :D
Why do you seem so desperate to change the subject from this trial to Congress critters?
See thread title.
Well it should obvious to you. The critters that are after Trump have likely been engaged in grifting to benefit themselves. So your not the least bit curious how the Congress critters became rich? Maybe because they understand that greed is good in their world. I mean these same people that want trumps head on a platter are the same NYC/NYS politicians that kissed trumps ass and cashed all of his checks. You don't seem to remember that trump was the hero of The Apprentice crowd that loved watching trump be an ass wipe every week on TV. Why even the queen of evil gave trump googly eyes in that picture at trumps wedding. Spare me your spin. The undeniable fact is liberal Democrats loved trump before they hated trump. They hope that everybody forgets that. It didn't take long for you to erase it from your memory. ;)
Plenty interested in Congress self-dealing, insider trading etc.
Just has nothing to do with this legal trial.
I believe the two are more intertwined than you would admit. So many in Congress use their political positions to feather their nests. Trump has been feathering his nest, or was feathering it by donating money to the people that now want to see his ass in jail even though that will never happen and all of you know that already. I suppose at best trump will wind up with an ankle monitor. Now if your worst nightmare comes true and trump wins in November the dynamics take a drastic turn for the worst. That is when the hunters become the hunted. Whatta ya think a trump DoJ will do? No need to reply because you already know the answer.
Again, I think there's no relationship between this trial and any of the Dems, nor R's, about whom you complain. None.

Yes, I fully believe that if Trump wins, it'll be Trump Unbound, MAGA Unbound, full on authoritarian retribution within the following few years. Some in months. But that has nothing to do with Trumping criminally tried, other than that Trump actually is a criminal sociopath so expecting the worst from him is reasonable to do.
There is everything to establish a relationship with the Ds and Rs in DC. They understand that trump can't campaign if his fat ass is forced to sit in a courtroom for the duration of his trial. Make him cool his heels if you like. The old poker player in me understands the strategy. This is political Texas Hold em and the Ds have gone all in. You don't think the Ds and the establishment Rs are not 100% behind the trump prosecutions? They love watching trump squirm. If trump wins in November alot of Democrats may be renouncing their American citizenship and relocating to France for a period of time. Maybe John Kerry can donate some of his free time teaching French to those moving to France. No wonder so many Democrats are having anxiety attacks about what happens in November. They understand what will happen if trump wins. Too bad that DFJ is the horse they have been given to bet on.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by old salt »

The NY Times is hedging their bets. They smell a stinker.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/opin ... trial.html

I Thought the Bragg Case Against Trump Was a Legal Embarrassment. Now I Think It’s a Historic Mistake.

April 23, 2024
By Jed Handelsman Shugerman
Mr. Shugerman is a law professor at Boston University.

About a year ago, when Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, indicted former President Donald Trump, I was critical of the case and called it an embarrassment. I thought an array of legal problems would and should lead to long delays in federal courts.

After listening to Monday’s opening statement by prosecutors, I still think the Manhattan D.A. has made a historic mistake. Their vague allegation about “a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election” has me more concerned than ever about their unprecedented use of state law and their persistent avoidance of specifying an election crime or a valid theory of fraud.

To recap: Mr. Trump is accused in the case of falsifying business records. Those are misdemeanor charges. To elevate it to a criminal case, Mr. Bragg and his team have pointed to potential violations of federal election law and state tax fraud. They also cite state election law, but state statutory definitions of “public office” seem to limit those statutes to state and local races.

Both the misdemeanor and felony charges require that the defendant made the false record with “intent to defraud.” A year ago, I wondered how entirely internal business records (the daily ledger, pay stubs and invoices) could be the basis of any fraud if they are not shared with anyone outside the business. I suggested that the real fraud was Mr. Trump’s filing an (allegedly) false report to the Federal Election Commission, and only federal prosecutors had jurisdiction over that filing.

A recent conversation with Jeffrey Cohen, a friend, Boston College law professor and former prosecutor, made me think that the case could turn out to be more legitimate than I had originally thought. The reason has to do with those allegedly falsified business records: Most of them were entered in early 2017, generally before Mr. Trump filed his Federal Election Commission report that summer. Mr. Trump may have foreseen an investigation into his campaign, leading to its financial records. Mr. Trump may have falsely recorded these internal records before the F.E.C. filing as consciously part of the same fraud: to create a consistent paper trail and to hide intent to violate federal election laws, or defraud the F.E.C.

Looking at the case in this way might address concerns about state jurisdiction. In this scenario, Mr. Trump arguably intended to deceive state investigators, too. State investigators could find these inconsistencies and alert federal agencies. Prosecutors could argue that New York State agencies have an interest in detecting conspiracies to defraud federal entities; they might also have a plausible answer to significant questions about whether New York State has jurisdiction or whether this stretch of a state business filing law is pre-empted by federal law.

However, this explanation is a novel interpretation with many significant legal problems. And none of the Manhattan D.A.’s filings or today’s opening statement even hint at this approach.

Instead of a theory of defrauding state regulators, Mr. Bragg has adopted a weak theory of “election interference,” and Justice Juan Merchan described the case, in his summary of it during jury selection, as an allegation of falsifying business records “to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 election.”

As a reality check, it is legal for a candidate to pay for a nondisclosure agreement. Hush money is unseemly, but it is legal. The election law scholar Richard Hasen rightly observed, “Calling it election interference actually cheapens the term and undermines the deadly serious charges in the real election interference cases.”

In Monday’s opening argument, the prosecutor Matthew Colangelo still evaded specifics about what was illegal about influencing an election, but then he claimed, “It was election fraud, pure and simple.” None of the relevant state or federal statutes refer to filing violations as fraud. Calling it “election fraud” is a legal and strategic mistake, exaggerating the case and setting up the jury with high expectations that the prosecutors cannot meet.

The most accurate description of this criminal case is a federal campaign finance filing violation. Without a federal violation (which the state election statute is tethered to), Mr. Bragg cannot upgrade the misdemeanor counts into felonies. Moreover, it is unclear how this case would even fulfill the misdemeanor requirement of “intent to defraud” without the federal crime.

In stretching jurisdiction and trying a federal crime in state court, the Manhattan D.A. is now pushing untested legal interpretations and applications. I see three red flags raising concerns about selective prosecution upon appeal.

First, I could find no previous case of any state prosecutor relying on the Federal Election Campaign Act either as a direct crime or a predicate crime. Whether state prosecutors have avoided doing so as a matter of law, norms or lack of expertise, this novel attempt is a sign of overreach.

Second, Mr. Trump’s lawyers argued that the New York statute requires that the predicate (underlying) crime must also be a New York crime, not a crime in another jurisdiction. The Manhattan D.A. responded with judicial precedents only about other criminal statutes, not the statute in this case. In the end, they could not cite a single judicial interpretation of this particular statute supporting their use of the statute (a plea deal and a single jury instruction do not count).

Third, no New York precedent has allowed an interpretation of defrauding the general public. Legal experts have noted that such a broad “election interference” theory is unprecedented, and a conviction based on it may not survive a state appeal.

Mr. Trump’s legal team also undercut itself for its decisions in the past year: His lawyers essentially put all of their eggs in the meritless basket of seeking to move the trial to federal court, instead of seeking a federal injunction to stop the trial entirely. If they had raised the issues of selective or vindictive prosecution and a mix of jurisdictional, pre-emption and constitutional claims, they could have delayed the trial past Election Day, even if they lost at each federal stage.

Another reason a federal crime has wound up in state court is that President Biden’s Justice Department bent over backward not to reopen this valid case or appoint a special counsel. Mr. Trump has tried to blame Mr. Biden for this prosecution as the real “election interference.” The Biden administration’s extra restraint belies this allegation and deserves more credit.

Eight years after the alleged crime itself, it is reasonable to ask if this is more about Manhattan politics than New York law. This case should serve as a cautionary tale about broader prosecutorial abuses in America — and promote bipartisan reforms of our partisan prosecutorial system.

Nevertheless, prosecutors should have some latitude to develop their case during trial, and maybe they will be more careful and precise about the underlying crime, fraud and the jurisdictional questions. Mr. Trump has received sufficient notice of the charges, and he can raise his arguments on appeal. One important principle of “our Federalism,” in the Supreme Court’s terms, is abstention, that federal courts should generally allow state trials to proceed first and wait to hear challenges later.

This case is still an embarrassment of prosecutorial ethics and apparent selective prosecution. Nevertheless, each side should have its day in court. If convicted, Mr. Trump can fight many other days — and perhaps win — in appellate courts. But if Monday’s opening is a preview of exaggerated allegations, imprecise legal theories and persistently unaddressed problems, the prosecutors might not win a conviction at all.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by cradleandshoot »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:25 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:31 am I believe the two are more intertwined than you would admit. So many in Congress use their political positions to feather their nests. Trump has been feathering his nest, or was feathering it by donating money to the people that now want to see his ass in jail even though that will never happen and all of you know that already. I suppose at best trump will wind up with an ankle monitor. Now if your worst nightmare comes true and trump wins in November the dynamics take a drastic turn for the worst. That is when the hunters become the hunted. Whatta ya think a trump DoJ will do? No need to reply because you already know the answer.
Except this case is about paying off a porn star and then falsifying records in a conspiracy to help win an election.

If you wanna talk about politicians legally (and sometimes illegally) grifting money from supporters or via insider trading, you can make another thread.
Thanks for the advice. I'm more than happy to continue the conversation on this thread. The bottom line is trump was boinking this porn star and paid her money to keep her mouth shut. Then to cover up his crime he used the term " legal expenses" instead of " hush money" So this is what this entire case against trump is based on. Was it illegal to classify these payments as " legal expenses" ? It is interesting how the collective mindset of FLP folks always opines about keeping government out of the bedroom. The exception to this FLP commandment is when the bed belongs to trump. Then you will move heaven and earth to make an exception to your own commandment. The FLP mantra when it was Bill Clinton being held accountable for his ally cat nature we were lectured that it was just sex and nobody's damn business how many times Clinton got his knob polished in the oral office. At least Bill never tried to pay hush money. That might be because Clinton didn't have the money to pay to keep certain mouths shut. :D
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:09 am Thanks for the advice. I'm more than happy to continue the conversation on this thread. The bottom line is trump was boinking this porn star and paid her money to keep her mouth shut. Then to cover up his crime he used the term " legal expenses" instead of " hush money" So this is what this entire case against trump is based on. Was it illegal to classify these payments as " legal expenses" ? It is interesting how the collective mindset of FLP folks always opines about keeping government out of the bedroom. The exception to this FLP commandment is when the bed belongs to trump. Then you will move heaven and earth to make an exception to your own commandment. The FLP mantra when it was Bill Clinton being held accountable for his ally cat nature we were lectured that it was just sex and nobody's damn business how many times Clinton got his knob polished in the oral office. At least Bill never tried to pay hush money. That might be because Clinton didn't have the money to pay to keep certain mouths shut. :D
Well hey, it's a free country. I certainly can't stop you from sounding idiotic and waay off topic in yet another thread. So go ahead and dribble in this one if you want to. :lol:
DMac
Posts: 8899
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:02 am

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by DMac »

Have mentioned before I don't watch the news, I find it to be a cesspool of exaggerating and sensationalizing actors seeking ratings where truth and accuracy is of little concern. I will watch it the day Trump is cuffed and muzzled and dragged out of the courtroom by the bailiff though, and that's just a matter time. Just as it was a matter of time before he ended up in a courtroom when he raised his right hand and made an oath (of which not one word he believed in or mattered one bit to him) and put himself in a position where he had to follow rules and laws and had to answer to people. You phukked up when you did that Donald...you phukked up big time!!! This piece of trash is the frontrunner for the GOP and millions upon millions will vote for him. Am thoroughly disgusted and disappointed in those millions upon millions of my fellow citizens who see this vile human being as the person they want as the face of this country. Will say again, I've learned an awful lot about those millions upon millions of my fellow citizens since Trump's entrance into the political arena. I get the voting for him the first time around. The second? No, just no. Speaks volumes of who so many of us really are and it doesn't make me proud to be an American...and at one time I was very proud to be an American.
njbill
Posts: 6894
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:35 am

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by njbill »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:43 am The NY Times is hedging their bets. They smell a stinker.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/opin ... trial.html

I Thought the Bragg Case Against Trump Was a Legal Embarrassment. Now I Think It’s a Historic Mistake.

April 23, 2024
By Jed Handelsman Shugerman
Mr. Shugerman is a law professor at Boston University.

About a year ago, when Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, indicted former President Donald Trump, I was critical of the case and called it an embarrassment. I thought an array of legal problems would and should lead to long delays in federal courts.

After listening to Monday’s opening statement by prosecutors, I still think the Manhattan D.A. has made a historic mistake. Their vague allegation about “a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election” has me more concerned than ever about their unprecedented use of state law and their persistent avoidance of specifying an election crime or a valid theory of fraud.

To recap: Mr. Trump is accused in the case of falsifying business records. Those are misdemeanor charges. To elevate it to a criminal case, Mr. Bragg and his team have pointed to potential violations of federal election law and state tax fraud. They also cite state election law, but state statutory definitions of “public office” seem to limit those statutes to state and local races.

Both the misdemeanor and felony charges require that the defendant made the false record with “intent to defraud.” A year ago, I wondered how entirely internal business records (the daily ledger, pay stubs and invoices) could be the basis of any fraud if they are not shared with anyone outside the business. I suggested that the real fraud was Mr. Trump’s filing an (allegedly) false report to the Federal Election Commission, and only federal prosecutors had jurisdiction over that filing.

A recent conversation with Jeffrey Cohen, a friend, Boston College law professor and former prosecutor, made me think that the case could turn out to be more legitimate than I had originally thought. The reason has to do with those allegedly falsified business records: Most of them were entered in early 2017, generally before Mr. Trump filed his Federal Election Commission report that summer. Mr. Trump may have foreseen an investigation into his campaign, leading to its financial records. Mr. Trump may have falsely recorded these internal records before the F.E.C. filing as consciously part of the same fraud: to create a consistent paper trail and to hide intent to violate federal election laws, or defraud the F.E.C.

Looking at the case in this way might address concerns about state jurisdiction. In this scenario, Mr. Trump arguably intended to deceive state investigators, too. State investigators could find these inconsistencies and alert federal agencies. Prosecutors could argue that New York State agencies have an interest in detecting conspiracies to defraud federal entities; they might also have a plausible answer to significant questions about whether New York State has jurisdiction or whether this stretch of a state business filing law is pre-empted by federal law.

However, this explanation is a novel interpretation with many significant legal problems. And none of the Manhattan D.A.’s filings or today’s opening statement even hint at this approach.

Instead of a theory of defrauding state regulators, Mr. Bragg has adopted a weak theory of “election interference,” and Justice Juan Merchan described the case, in his summary of it during jury selection, as an allegation of falsifying business records “to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 election.”

As a reality check, it is legal for a candidate to pay for a nondisclosure agreement. Hush money is unseemly, but it is legal. The election law scholar Richard Hasen rightly observed, “Calling it election interference actually cheapens the term and undermines the deadly serious charges in the real election interference cases.”

In Monday’s opening argument, the prosecutor Matthew Colangelo still evaded specifics about what was illegal about influencing an election, but then he claimed, “It was election fraud, pure and simple.” None of the relevant state or federal statutes refer to filing violations as fraud. Calling it “election fraud” is a legal and strategic mistake, exaggerating the case and setting up the jury with high expectations that the prosecutors cannot meet.

The most accurate description of this criminal case is a federal campaign finance filing violation. Without a federal violation (which the state election statute is tethered to), Mr. Bragg cannot upgrade the misdemeanor counts into felonies. Moreover, it is unclear how this case would even fulfill the misdemeanor requirement of “intent to defraud” without the federal crime.

In stretching jurisdiction and trying a federal crime in state court, the Manhattan D.A. is now pushing untested legal interpretations and applications. I see three red flags raising concerns about selective prosecution upon appeal.

First, I could find no previous case of any state prosecutor relying on the Federal Election Campaign Act either as a direct crime or a predicate crime. Whether state prosecutors have avoided doing so as a matter of law, norms or lack of expertise, this novel attempt is a sign of overreach.

Second, Mr. Trump’s lawyers argued that the New York statute requires that the predicate (underlying) crime must also be a New York crime, not a crime in another jurisdiction. The Manhattan D.A. responded with judicial precedents only about other criminal statutes, not the statute in this case. In the end, they could not cite a single judicial interpretation of this particular statute supporting their use of the statute (a plea deal and a single jury instruction do not count).

Third, no New York precedent has allowed an interpretation of defrauding the general public. Legal experts have noted that such a broad “election interference” theory is unprecedented, and a conviction based on it may not survive a state appeal.

Mr. Trump’s legal team also undercut itself for its decisions in the past year: His lawyers essentially put all of their eggs in the meritless basket of seeking to move the trial to federal court, instead of seeking a federal injunction to stop the trial entirely. If they had raised the issues of selective or vindictive prosecution and a mix of jurisdictional, pre-emption and constitutional claims, they could have delayed the trial past Election Day, even if they lost at each federal stage.

Another reason a federal crime has wound up in state court is that President Biden’s Justice Department bent over backward not to reopen this valid case or appoint a special counsel. Mr. Trump has tried to blame Mr. Biden for this prosecution as the real “election interference.” The Biden administration’s extra restraint belies this allegation and deserves more credit.

Eight years after the alleged crime itself, it is reasonable to ask if this is more about Manhattan politics than New York law. This case should serve as a cautionary tale about broader prosecutorial abuses in America — and promote bipartisan reforms of our partisan prosecutorial system.

Nevertheless, prosecutors should have some latitude to develop their case during trial, and maybe they will be more careful and precise about the underlying crime, fraud and the jurisdictional questions. Mr. Trump has received sufficient notice of the charges, and he can raise his arguments on appeal. One important principle of “our Federalism,” in the Supreme Court’s terms, is abstention, that federal courts should generally allow state trials to proceed first and wait to hear challenges later.

This case is still an embarrassment of prosecutorial ethics and apparent selective prosecution. Nevertheless, each side should have its day in court. If convicted, Mr. Trump can fight many other days — and perhaps win — in appellate courts. But if Monday’s opening is a preview of exaggerated allegations, imprecise legal theories and persistently unaddressed problems, the prosecutors might not win a conviction at all.
Interesting column. I am by no means an expert in NY criminal law, but a couple of things said in this piece attracted my attention.

I highlighted "state tax fraud," above. If I correctly understand what the author is saying, the falsification of business records (which I think everyone agrees occurred here) crime may be elevated to a felony if it is coupled with state tax fraud. Presumably Trump took a deduction for the "legal expenses" he "paid" to Cohen. That would seem to be an open and shut case of tax fraud (you can't claim hush money payments paid to a woman you had an affair with to keep her quiet are business expenses). Much of the coverage of the trial has focused on violations of federal election law and the allegation Trump did this to influence the election, but it seems to me the much simpler and cleaner case would be to prove: (1) the records were falsified (easy to prove); and (2) Trump deducted the Cohen legal expenses (don't know if this one is true, but if so, it should be easy to prove. Then you have Trump guilty of a NY state felony without having to tangle with the more complicated federal election interference stuff.

The other thing in the column I noted was the comments about selective prosecution. That is a very heavy lift under any circumstances. An easy analogy is try getting a speeding ticket dismissed by claiming selective prosecution. "Judge, scores of other people were speeding. The cop only stopped me. He is selectively prosecuting me." Won't work.

The other problem with this selective prosecution argument is for it to have any legs at all, there need to be a lot of other similar cases that weren't prosecuted. How many other cases are there where an individual paid off a paramour, booked the payments as legal expenses, and did all this to try to influence an election?
SCLaxAttack
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:24 pm

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by SCLaxAttack »

old salt wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:43 am The NY Times is hedging their bets. They smell a stinker.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/opin ... trial.html

I Thought the Bragg Case Against Trump Was a Legal Embarrassment. Now I Think It’s a Historic Mistake.

April 23, 2024
By Jed Handelsman Shugerman
Mr. Shugerman is a law professor at Boston University.

About a year ago, when Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, indicted former President Donald Trump, I was critical of the case and called it an embarrassment. I thought an array of legal problems would and should lead to long delays in federal courts.

After listening to Monday’s opening statement by prosecutors, I still think the Manhattan D.A. has made a historic mistake. Their vague allegation about “a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election” has me more concerned than ever about their unprecedented use of state law and their persistent avoidance of specifying an election crime or a valid theory of fraud.

To recap: Mr. Trump is accused in the case of falsifying business records. Those are misdemeanor charges. To elevate it to a criminal case, Mr. Bragg and his team have pointed to potential violations of federal election law and state tax fraud. They also cite state election law, but state statutory definitions of “public office” seem to limit those statutes to state and local races.

Both the misdemeanor and felony charges require that the defendant made the false record with “intent to defraud.” A year ago, I wondered how entirely internal business records (the daily ledger, pay stubs and invoices) could be the basis of any fraud if they are not shared with anyone outside the business. I suggested that the real fraud was Mr. Trump’s filing an (allegedly) false report to the Federal Election Commission, and only federal prosecutors had jurisdiction over that filing.

A recent conversation with Jeffrey Cohen, a friend, Boston College law professor and former prosecutor, made me think that the case could turn out to be more legitimate than I had originally thought. The reason has to do with those allegedly falsified business records: Most of them were entered in early 2017, generally before Mr. Trump filed his Federal Election Commission report that summer. Mr. Trump may have foreseen an investigation into his campaign, leading to its financial records. Mr. Trump may have falsely recorded these internal records before the F.E.C. filing as consciously part of the same fraud: to create a consistent paper trail and to hide intent to violate federal election laws, or defraud the F.E.C.

Looking at the case in this way might address concerns about state jurisdiction. In this scenario, Mr. Trump arguably intended to deceive state investigators, too. State investigators could find these inconsistencies and alert federal agencies. Prosecutors could argue that New York State agencies have an interest in detecting conspiracies to defraud federal entities; they might also have a plausible answer to significant questions about whether New York State has jurisdiction or whether this stretch of a state business filing law is pre-empted by federal law.

However, this explanation is a novel interpretation with many significant legal problems. And none of the Manhattan D.A.’s filings or today’s opening statement even hint at this approach.

Instead of a theory of defrauding state regulators, Mr. Bragg has adopted a weak theory of “election interference,” and Justice Juan Merchan described the case, in his summary of it during jury selection, as an allegation of falsifying business records “to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 election.”

As a reality check, it is legal for a candidate to pay for a nondisclosure agreement. Hush money is unseemly, but it is legal. The election law scholar Richard Hasen rightly observed, “Calling it election interference actually cheapens the term and undermines the deadly serious charges in the real election interference cases.”

In Monday’s opening argument, the prosecutor Matthew Colangelo still evaded specifics about what was illegal about influencing an election, but then he claimed, “It was election fraud, pure and simple.” None of the relevant state or federal statutes refer to filing violations as fraud. Calling it “election fraud” is a legal and strategic mistake, exaggerating the case and setting up the jury with high expectations that the prosecutors cannot meet.

The most accurate description of this criminal case is a federal campaign finance filing violation. Without a federal violation (which the state election statute is tethered to), Mr. Bragg cannot upgrade the misdemeanor counts into felonies. Moreover, it is unclear how this case would even fulfill the misdemeanor requirement of “intent to defraud” without the federal crime.

In stretching jurisdiction and trying a federal crime in state court, the Manhattan D.A. is now pushing untested legal interpretations and applications. I see three red flags raising concerns about selective prosecution upon appeal.

First, I could find no previous case of any state prosecutor relying on the Federal Election Campaign Act either as a direct crime or a predicate crime. Whether state prosecutors have avoided doing so as a matter of law, norms or lack of expertise, this novel attempt is a sign of overreach.

Second, Mr. Trump’s lawyers argued that the New York statute requires that the predicate (underlying) crime must also be a New York crime, not a crime in another jurisdiction. The Manhattan D.A. responded with judicial precedents only about other criminal statutes, not the statute in this case. In the end, they could not cite a single judicial interpretation of this particular statute supporting their use of the statute (a plea deal and a single jury instruction do not count).

Third, no New York precedent has allowed an interpretation of defrauding the general public. Legal experts have noted that such a broad “election interference” theory is unprecedented, and a conviction based on it may not survive a state appeal.

Mr. Trump’s legal team also undercut itself for its decisions in the past year: His lawyers essentially put all of their eggs in the meritless basket of seeking to move the trial to federal court, instead of seeking a federal injunction to stop the trial entirely. If they had raised the issues of selective or vindictive prosecution and a mix of jurisdictional, pre-emption and constitutional claims, they could have delayed the trial past Election Day, even if they lost at each federal stage.

Another reason a federal crime has wound up in state court is that President Biden’s Justice Department bent over backward not to reopen this valid case or appoint a special counsel. Mr. Trump has tried to blame Mr. Biden for this prosecution as the real “election interference.” The Biden administration’s extra restraint belies this allegation and deserves more credit.

Eight years after the alleged crime itself, it is reasonable to ask if this is more about Manhattan politics than New York law. This case should serve as a cautionary tale about broader prosecutorial abuses in America — and promote bipartisan reforms of our partisan prosecutorial system.

Nevertheless, prosecutors should have some latitude to develop their case during trial, and maybe they will be more careful and precise about the underlying crime, fraud and the jurisdictional questions. Mr. Trump has received sufficient notice of the charges, and he can raise his arguments on appeal. One important principle of “our Federalism,” in the Supreme Court’s terms, is abstention, that federal courts should generally allow state trials to proceed first and wait to hear challenges later.

This case is still an embarrassment of prosecutorial ethics and apparent selective prosecution. Nevertheless, each side should have its day in court. If convicted, Mr. Trump can fight many other days — and perhaps win — in appellate courts. But if Monday’s opening is a preview of exaggerated allegations, imprecise legal theories and persistently unaddressed problems, the prosecutors might not win a conviction at all.
You're not complaining that that "liberal rag" NYT is publishing an editorial with a different perspective from their editors, are you?
SCLaxAttack
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:24 pm

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by SCLaxAttack »

DMac wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:33 am Have mentioned before I don't watch the news, I find it to be a cesspool of exaggerating and sensationalizing actors seeking ratings where truth and accuracy is of little concern. I will watch it the day Trump is cuffed and muzzled and dragged out of the courtroom by the bailiff though, and that's just a matter time. Just as it was a matter of time before he ended up in a courtroom when he raised his right hand and made an oath (of which not one word he believed in or mattered one bit to him) and put himself in a position where he had to follow rules and laws and had to answer to people. You phukked up when you did that Donald...you phukked up big time!!! This piece of trash is the frontrunner for the GOP and millions upon millions will vote for him. Am thoroughly disgusted and disappointed in those millions upon millions of my fellow citizens who see this vile human being as the person they want as the face of this country. Will say again, I've learned an awful lot about those millions upon millions of my fellow citizens since Trump's entrance into the political arena. I get the voting for him the first time around. The second? No, just no. Speaks volumes of who so many of us really are and it doesn't make me proud to be an American...and at one time I was very proud to be an American.
+1,000,000,000 (One for every one of those Americans I'm also disappointed in. And saddened by.)
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32340
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:19 am
DMac wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:33 am Have mentioned before I don't watch the news, I find it to be a cesspool of exaggerating and sensationalizing actors seeking ratings where truth and accuracy is of little concern. I will watch it the day Trump is cuffed and muzzled and dragged out of the courtroom by the bailiff though, and that's just a matter time. Just as it was a matter of time before he ended up in a courtroom when he raised his right hand and made an oath (of which not one word he believed in or mattered one bit to him) and put himself in a position where he had to follow rules and laws and had to answer to people. You phukked up when you did that Donald...you phukked up big time!!! This piece of trash is the frontrunner for the GOP and millions upon millions will vote for him. Am thoroughly disgusted and disappointed in those millions upon millions of my fellow citizens who see this vile human being as the person they want as the face of this country. Will say again, I've learned an awful lot about those millions upon millions of my fellow citizens since Trump's entrance into the political arena. I get the voting for him the first time around. The second? No, just no. Speaks volumes of who so many of us really are and it doesn't make me proud to be an American...and at one time I was very proud to be an American.
+1,000,000,000 (One for every one of those Americans I'm also disappointed in. And saddened by.)
I posted here that Trump would turn this country into a Banana Republic…..

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna92160

Brazil has higher standards
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
a fan
Posts: 17961
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by a fan »

SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:16 am
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:43 am The NY Times is hedging their bets. They smell a stinker.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/opin ... trial.html

I Thought the Bragg Case Against Trump Was a Legal Embarrassment. Now I Think It’s a Historic Mistake.

April 23, 2024
By Jed Handelsman Shugerman
Mr. Shugerman is a law professor at Boston University.

About a year ago, when Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, indicted former President Donald Trump, I was critical of the case and called it an embarrassment. I thought an array of legal problems would and should lead to long delays in federal courts.

After listening to Monday’s opening statement by prosecutors, I still think the Manhattan D.A. has made a historic mistake. Their vague allegation about “a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election” has me more concerned than ever about their unprecedented use of state law and their persistent avoidance of specifying an election crime or a valid theory of fraud.

To recap: Mr. Trump is accused in the case of falsifying business records. Those are misdemeanor charges. To elevate it to a criminal case, Mr. Bragg and his team have pointed to potential violations of federal election law and state tax fraud. They also cite state election law, but state statutory definitions of “public office” seem to limit those statutes to state and local races.

Both the misdemeanor and felony charges require that the defendant made the false record with “intent to defraud.” A year ago, I wondered how entirely internal business records (the daily ledger, pay stubs and invoices) could be the basis of any fraud if they are not shared with anyone outside the business. I suggested that the real fraud was Mr. Trump’s filing an (allegedly) false report to the Federal Election Commission, and only federal prosecutors had jurisdiction over that filing.

A recent conversation with Jeffrey Cohen, a friend, Boston College law professor and former prosecutor, made me think that the case could turn out to be more legitimate than I had originally thought. The reason has to do with those allegedly falsified business records: Most of them were entered in early 2017, generally before Mr. Trump filed his Federal Election Commission report that summer. Mr. Trump may have foreseen an investigation into his campaign, leading to its financial records. Mr. Trump may have falsely recorded these internal records before the F.E.C. filing as consciously part of the same fraud: to create a consistent paper trail and to hide intent to violate federal election laws, or defraud the F.E.C.

Looking at the case in this way might address concerns about state jurisdiction. In this scenario, Mr. Trump arguably intended to deceive state investigators, too. State investigators could find these inconsistencies and alert federal agencies. Prosecutors could argue that New York State agencies have an interest in detecting conspiracies to defraud federal entities; they might also have a plausible answer to significant questions about whether New York State has jurisdiction or whether this stretch of a state business filing law is pre-empted by federal law.

However, this explanation is a novel interpretation with many significant legal problems. And none of the Manhattan D.A.’s filings or today’s opening statement even hint at this approach.

Instead of a theory of defrauding state regulators, Mr. Bragg has adopted a weak theory of “election interference,” and Justice Juan Merchan described the case, in his summary of it during jury selection, as an allegation of falsifying business records “to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 election.”

As a reality check, it is legal for a candidate to pay for a nondisclosure agreement. Hush money is unseemly, but it is legal. The election law scholar Richard Hasen rightly observed, “Calling it election interference actually cheapens the term and undermines the deadly serious charges in the real election interference cases.”

In Monday’s opening argument, the prosecutor Matthew Colangelo still evaded specifics about what was illegal about influencing an election, but then he claimed, “It was election fraud, pure and simple.” None of the relevant state or federal statutes refer to filing violations as fraud. Calling it “election fraud” is a legal and strategic mistake, exaggerating the case and setting up the jury with high expectations that the prosecutors cannot meet.

The most accurate description of this criminal case is a federal campaign finance filing violation. Without a federal violation (which the state election statute is tethered to), Mr. Bragg cannot upgrade the misdemeanor counts into felonies. Moreover, it is unclear how this case would even fulfill the misdemeanor requirement of “intent to defraud” without the federal crime.

In stretching jurisdiction and trying a federal crime in state court, the Manhattan D.A. is now pushing untested legal interpretations and applications. I see three red flags raising concerns about selective prosecution upon appeal.

First, I could find no previous case of any state prosecutor relying on the Federal Election Campaign Act either as a direct crime or a predicate crime. Whether state prosecutors have avoided doing so as a matter of law, norms or lack of expertise, this novel attempt is a sign of overreach.

Second, Mr. Trump’s lawyers argued that the New York statute requires that the predicate (underlying) crime must also be a New York crime, not a crime in another jurisdiction. The Manhattan D.A. responded with judicial precedents only about other criminal statutes, not the statute in this case. In the end, they could not cite a single judicial interpretation of this particular statute supporting their use of the statute (a plea deal and a single jury instruction do not count).

Third, no New York precedent has allowed an interpretation of defrauding the general public. Legal experts have noted that such a broad “election interference” theory is unprecedented, and a conviction based on it may not survive a state appeal.

Mr. Trump’s legal team also undercut itself for its decisions in the past year: His lawyers essentially put all of their eggs in the meritless basket of seeking to move the trial to federal court, instead of seeking a federal injunction to stop the trial entirely. If they had raised the issues of selective or vindictive prosecution and a mix of jurisdictional, pre-emption and constitutional claims, they could have delayed the trial past Election Day, even if they lost at each federal stage.

Another reason a federal crime has wound up in state court is that President Biden’s Justice Department bent over backward not to reopen this valid case or appoint a special counsel. Mr. Trump has tried to blame Mr. Biden for this prosecution as the real “election interference.” The Biden administration’s extra restraint belies this allegation and deserves more credit.

Eight years after the alleged crime itself, it is reasonable to ask if this is more about Manhattan politics than New York law. This case should serve as a cautionary tale about broader prosecutorial abuses in America — and promote bipartisan reforms of our partisan prosecutorial system.

Nevertheless, prosecutors should have some latitude to develop their case during trial, and maybe they will be more careful and precise about the underlying crime, fraud and the jurisdictional questions. Mr. Trump has received sufficient notice of the charges, and he can raise his arguments on appeal. One important principle of “our Federalism,” in the Supreme Court’s terms, is abstention, that federal courts should generally allow state trials to proceed first and wait to hear challenges later.

This case is still an embarrassment of prosecutorial ethics and apparent selective prosecution. Nevertheless, each side should have its day in court. If convicted, Mr. Trump can fight many other days — and perhaps win — in appellate courts. But if Monday’s opening is a preview of exaggerated allegations, imprecise legal theories and persistently unaddressed problems, the prosecutors might not win a conviction at all.
You're not complaining that that "liberal rag" NYT is publishing an editorial with a different perspective from their editors, are you?
1000% the wrong take, and this is what Trump has done to Americans who are SUPPOSED to understand what honesty and integrity means.

The CORRECT take is: they've been letting Trump and his fellow 1%ers break laws in places like New York City with abandon, because they've got political connections, and therefore the power to break laws that the rest of us have to follow.

So the same geniuses who think that Trump shouldn't have to follow laws, are the exact same people who lost their minds over the smash and grab mobs breaking laws. "That's different", of course. :roll:


These are business related laws that guys like me have to freaking follow, or we'll lose EVERYTHING. So this Op-Ed idiot doesn't' know right from wrong anymore, and it's Trump that led him there. "Everyone does it" isn't a freaking legal----or ethical--- defense, despite what the 2024 Republican voter now thinks.

Republicans USED to be the Sheriff Andy Griffiths of the world. Not anymore, and it's really F'ing sad.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by cradleandshoot »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:59 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:09 am Thanks for the advice. I'm more than happy to continue the conversation on this thread. The bottom line is trump was boinking this porn star and paid her money to keep her mouth shut. Then to cover up his crime he used the term " legal expenses" instead of " hush money" So this is what this entire case against trump is based on. Was it illegal to classify these payments as " legal expenses" ? It is interesting how the collective mindset of FLP folks always opines about keeping government out of the bedroom. The exception to this FLP commandment is when the bed belongs to trump. Then you will move heaven and earth to make an exception to your own commandment. The FLP mantra when it was Bill Clinton being held accountable for his ally cat nature we were lectured that it was just sex and nobody's damn business how many times Clinton got his knob polished in the oral office. At least Bill never tried to pay hush money. That might be because Clinton didn't have the money to pay to keep certain mouths shut. :D
Well hey, it's a free country. I certainly can't stop you from sounding idiotic and waay off topic in yet another thread. So go ahead and dribble in this one if you want to. :lol:
Idiotic and way off topic...damn I'm starting to sound like you... Here's your sign... :D
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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NattyBohChamps04
Posts: 2283
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 11:40 pm

Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:08 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:59 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 7:09 am Thanks for the advice. I'm more than happy to continue the conversation on this thread. The bottom line is trump was boinking this porn star and paid her money to keep her mouth shut. Then to cover up his crime he used the term " legal expenses" instead of " hush money" So this is what this entire case against trump is based on. Was it illegal to classify these payments as " legal expenses" ? It is interesting how the collective mindset of FLP folks always opines about keeping government out of the bedroom. The exception to this FLP commandment is when the bed belongs to trump. Then you will move heaven and earth to make an exception to your own commandment. The FLP mantra when it was Bill Clinton being held accountable for his ally cat nature we were lectured that it was just sex and nobody's damn business how many times Clinton got his knob polished in the oral office. At least Bill never tried to pay hush money. That might be because Clinton didn't have the money to pay to keep certain mouths shut. :D
Well hey, it's a free country. I certainly can't stop you from sounding idiotic and waay off topic in yet another thread. So go ahead and dribble in this one if you want to. :lol:
Idiotic and way off topic...damn I'm starting to sound like you... Here's your sign... :D
Half your posts these days are some version of "I know you are but what am I," either directed at others or at Biden. It's not a great schtick, you should try to be a little more original.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: JUST the NY "Hush Money"/Election Interference Trial

Post by cradleandshoot »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:46 am
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:16 am
old salt wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:43 am The NY Times is hedging their bets. They smell a stinker.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/23/opin ... trial.html

I Thought the Bragg Case Against Trump Was a Legal Embarrassment. Now I Think It’s a Historic Mistake.

April 23, 2024
By Jed Handelsman Shugerman
Mr. Shugerman is a law professor at Boston University.

About a year ago, when Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, indicted former President Donald Trump, I was critical of the case and called it an embarrassment. I thought an array of legal problems would and should lead to long delays in federal courts.

After listening to Monday’s opening statement by prosecutors, I still think the Manhattan D.A. has made a historic mistake. Their vague allegation about “a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election” has me more concerned than ever about their unprecedented use of state law and their persistent avoidance of specifying an election crime or a valid theory of fraud.

To recap: Mr. Trump is accused in the case of falsifying business records. Those are misdemeanor charges. To elevate it to a criminal case, Mr. Bragg and his team have pointed to potential violations of federal election law and state tax fraud. They also cite state election law, but state statutory definitions of “public office” seem to limit those statutes to state and local races.

Both the misdemeanor and felony charges require that the defendant made the false record with “intent to defraud.” A year ago, I wondered how entirely internal business records (the daily ledger, pay stubs and invoices) could be the basis of any fraud if they are not shared with anyone outside the business. I suggested that the real fraud was Mr. Trump’s filing an (allegedly) false report to the Federal Election Commission, and only federal prosecutors had jurisdiction over that filing.

A recent conversation with Jeffrey Cohen, a friend, Boston College law professor and former prosecutor, made me think that the case could turn out to be more legitimate than I had originally thought. The reason has to do with those allegedly falsified business records: Most of them were entered in early 2017, generally before Mr. Trump filed his Federal Election Commission report that summer. Mr. Trump may have foreseen an investigation into his campaign, leading to its financial records. Mr. Trump may have falsely recorded these internal records before the F.E.C. filing as consciously part of the same fraud: to create a consistent paper trail and to hide intent to violate federal election laws, or defraud the F.E.C.

Looking at the case in this way might address concerns about state jurisdiction. In this scenario, Mr. Trump arguably intended to deceive state investigators, too. State investigators could find these inconsistencies and alert federal agencies. Prosecutors could argue that New York State agencies have an interest in detecting conspiracies to defraud federal entities; they might also have a plausible answer to significant questions about whether New York State has jurisdiction or whether this stretch of a state business filing law is pre-empted by federal law.

However, this explanation is a novel interpretation with many significant legal problems. And none of the Manhattan D.A.’s filings or today’s opening statement even hint at this approach.

Instead of a theory of defrauding state regulators, Mr. Bragg has adopted a weak theory of “election interference,” and Justice Juan Merchan described the case, in his summary of it during jury selection, as an allegation of falsifying business records “to conceal an agreement with others to unlawfully influence the 2016 election.”

As a reality check, it is legal for a candidate to pay for a nondisclosure agreement. Hush money is unseemly, but it is legal. The election law scholar Richard Hasen rightly observed, “Calling it election interference actually cheapens the term and undermines the deadly serious charges in the real election interference cases.”

In Monday’s opening argument, the prosecutor Matthew Colangelo still evaded specifics about what was illegal about influencing an election, but then he claimed, “It was election fraud, pure and simple.” None of the relevant state or federal statutes refer to filing violations as fraud. Calling it “election fraud” is a legal and strategic mistake, exaggerating the case and setting up the jury with high expectations that the prosecutors cannot meet.

The most accurate description of this criminal case is a federal campaign finance filing violation. Without a federal violation (which the state election statute is tethered to), Mr. Bragg cannot upgrade the misdemeanor counts into felonies. Moreover, it is unclear how this case would even fulfill the misdemeanor requirement of “intent to defraud” without the federal crime.

In stretching jurisdiction and trying a federal crime in state court, the Manhattan D.A. is now pushing untested legal interpretations and applications. I see three red flags raising concerns about selective prosecution upon appeal.

First, I could find no previous case of any state prosecutor relying on the Federal Election Campaign Act either as a direct crime or a predicate crime. Whether state prosecutors have avoided doing so as a matter of law, norms or lack of expertise, this novel attempt is a sign of overreach.

Second, Mr. Trump’s lawyers argued that the New York statute requires that the predicate (underlying) crime must also be a New York crime, not a crime in another jurisdiction. The Manhattan D.A. responded with judicial precedents only about other criminal statutes, not the statute in this case. In the end, they could not cite a single judicial interpretation of this particular statute supporting their use of the statute (a plea deal and a single jury instruction do not count).

Third, no New York precedent has allowed an interpretation of defrauding the general public. Legal experts have noted that such a broad “election interference” theory is unprecedented, and a conviction based on it may not survive a state appeal.

Mr. Trump’s legal team also undercut itself for its decisions in the past year: His lawyers essentially put all of their eggs in the meritless basket of seeking to move the trial to federal court, instead of seeking a federal injunction to stop the trial entirely. If they had raised the issues of selective or vindictive prosecution and a mix of jurisdictional, pre-emption and constitutional claims, they could have delayed the trial past Election Day, even if they lost at each federal stage.

Another reason a federal crime has wound up in state court is that President Biden’s Justice Department bent over backward not to reopen this valid case or appoint a special counsel. Mr. Trump has tried to blame Mr. Biden for this prosecution as the real “election interference.” The Biden administration’s extra restraint belies this allegation and deserves more credit.

Eight years after the alleged crime itself, it is reasonable to ask if this is more about Manhattan politics than New York law. This case should serve as a cautionary tale about broader prosecutorial abuses in America — and promote bipartisan reforms of our partisan prosecutorial system.

Nevertheless, prosecutors should have some latitude to develop their case during trial, and maybe they will be more careful and precise about the underlying crime, fraud and the jurisdictional questions. Mr. Trump has received sufficient notice of the charges, and he can raise his arguments on appeal. One important principle of “our Federalism,” in the Supreme Court’s terms, is abstention, that federal courts should generally allow state trials to proceed first and wait to hear challenges later.

This case is still an embarrassment of prosecutorial ethics and apparent selective prosecution. Nevertheless, each side should have its day in court. If convicted, Mr. Trump can fight many other days — and perhaps win — in appellate courts. But if Monday’s opening is a preview of exaggerated allegations, imprecise legal theories and persistently unaddressed problems, the prosecutors might not win a conviction at all.
You're not complaining that that "liberal rag" NYT is publishing an editorial with a different perspective from their editors, are you?
1000% the wrong take, and this is what Trump has done to Americans who are SUPPOSED to understand what honesty and integrity means.

The CORRECT take is: they've been letting Trump and his fellow 1%ers break laws in places like New York City with abandon, because they've got political connections, and therefore the power to break laws that the rest of us have to follow.

So the same geniuses who think that Trump shouldn't have to follow laws, are the exact same people who lost their minds over the smash and grab mobs breaking laws. "That's different", of course. :roll:


These are business related laws that guys like me have to freaking follow, or we'll lose EVERYTHING. So this Op-Ed idiot doesn't' know right from wrong anymore, and it's Trump that led him there. "Everyone does it" isn't a freaking legal----or ethical--- defense, despite what the 2024 Republican voter now thinks.

Republicans USED to be the Sheriff Andy Griffiths of the world. Not anymore, and it's really F'ing sad.
The real issue is that the FLP leadership in NYC fed and nurtured the trump beast. They gave him his own reality TV show. They happily cashed all of his campaign checks. It is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part but I'm only commenting on how trump was their hero before he became their arch enemy. You have to remember that the NYS Democrats use to love trump before they hated him.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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