HS Boys National and Regional Rankings

[CTlaxer12]

PS CT, you know what their thing is with Massapequa? It's so strange it's smells like an inside joke.

Matnum, I wouldn't even begin to guess. I would just say there is an acute lack of objectivity at IL that makes it difficult to read, I am still hung up on the writer's line about the MIAA this year.

[Matnum PI]

I hear you. It's pretty obnoxious. I was once at an unnamed MIAA HS game (it was Gilman) and made a light comment to an assistant coach about their playing Haverford (when H'ford was #1) in a few days after beating a different OOC team. Something like, Good win, coach. Should be a good warm-up for Haverford on Wednesday. Something like that. And the asst. coach snaps back at me, We don't give a sh*t about the OOC games. We're here to win the MIAA. And then stomped off. This was years ago and it still sticks with me. Could hear at a surface level and move on or read something deeper into this. Something along the lines of, OOC is irrelevant. And, for all intents and purposes, winning the MIAA is bigger than being National Champions. But who knows...

[Lax_04]

I am all for the grow-the-game narrative and I have great respect for every program on the final IL list (especially the non-"academy" / non PG programs) but I think you guys are off on your MIAA bashing.

In the past few months this one small conference has produced:

Tewaaraton Winner (Spencer)
NCAA D1 Tournament MOP (Rode)
ACC Offensive POY (Costabile)
Four of the 17 USILA First team AA's (Spencer, Costabile, Conrad, Stover)
PLL Picks #1, #2, and #4 (Spencer, Conrad, Woodall)
MLL Picks #1, #2, and #5 (Woodall, Troutner, Conrad)

The above came from SIX different schools within the conference. But these are the alums...

The guys who played in the conference in the "down" 2019 season currently make up 26% of the remaining 50 players at the U19 national team tryout.

The FanLax algorithm actually puts SIX MIAA teams in the 2019 top 20.

Again, all due respect, but I think you guys are under-rating the MIAA.

[CTlaxer12]

I am all for the grow-the-game narrative and I have great respect for every program on the final IL list (especially the non-"academy" / non PG programs) but I think you guys are off on your MIAA bashing.

In the past few months this one small conference has produced:

Tewaaraton Winner (Spencer)
NCAA D1 Tournament MOP (Rode)
ACC Offensive POY (Costabile)
Four of the 17 USILA First team AA's (Spencer, Costabile, Conrad, Stover)
PLL Picks #1, #2, and #4 (Spencer, Conrad, Woodall)
MLL Picks #1, #2, and #5 (Woodall, Troutner, Conrad)

The above came from SIX different schools within the conference. But these are the alums...

The guys who played in the conference in the "down" 2019 season currently make up 26% of the remaining 50 players at the U19 national team tryout.

The FanLax algorithm actually puts SIX MIAA teams in the 2019 top 20.

Again, all due respect, but I think you guys are under-rating the MIAA.

I 'm not sure anyone is bashing the quality of players coming out of the MIAA. There are clearly great players being produced. The point about the US U19 roster, there are 5 players alone from St. Anthony's on the final 50, thats 10%. You can cherry pick college and elite team numbers, but the fact remains, this was not an overall great conference this year. The issues that we have is the clear bias displayed by IL in the teams they choose to cover, which is mostly MIAA.

[random observer]

I am all for the grow-the-game narrative and I have great respect for every program on the final IL list (especially the non-"academy" / non PG programs) but I think you guys are off on your MIAA bashing.

In the past few months this one small conference has produced:

Tewaaraton Winner (Spencer)
NCAA D1 Tournament MOP (Rode)
ACC Offensive POY (Costabile)
Four of the 17 USILA First team AA's (Spencer, Costabile, Conrad, Stover)
PLL Picks #1, #2, and #4 (Spencer, Conrad, Woodall)
MLL Picks #1, #2, and #5 (Woodall, Troutner, Conrad)

The above came from SIX different schools within the conference. But these are the alums...

The guys who played in the conference in the "down" 2019 season currently make up 26% of the remaining 50 players at the U19 national team tryout.

The FanLax algorithm actually puts SIX MIAA teams in the 2019 top 20.

Again, all due respect, but I think you guys are under-rating the MIAA.

No one is saying the MIAA isn't good. Still the best conference in the nation top-to-bottom in my book, but the gap has shrunk massively in the last decade. The college players you listed graduated 3-4 years ago, so not entirely relevant to the discussion, and the U19 tryout is incredibly political (remember the 2011 tryouts?).

And I'm not sure what is meant by "small conference". You have pretty much all of the best players from one of the elite hotbeds in the nation compressed onto essentially 7 teams.

I think most of the "bashing" you are seeing is not at the expense of the MIAA but on the disproportionate acclaim it gets from IL. Few people would deny that it is an elite conference with great players. We were getting mid-season update articles on middle-of-the-pack MIAA teams like Boys' Latin (who are going to be a force the next few years, but were down in 2019 and got spanked by most of the good teams they played outside of the MIAA) and barely a word on the epic Chaminade/St. Anthony's Catholic League Final (and for my money if you want to talk about college/U19 talent, those two programs churn out more stars than anyone else, including any of the MIAA teams).

[Matnum PI]

Agreeing with all. No way am I bashing the MIAA. I'm one of the people guilty of talking about them too much. I love the MIAA. But not so much that I can't see that there are other quality, dare I say it, better teams in the Nation. It's much easier when a Landon or whoever is in a good conference, plays several quality OOC games, and then runs the table. But when this isn't the case, we've gotta do better than what's being put before us. That IL does what IL does doesn't bother me nearly as much as others repeating it. e.g. #1 CHC plays #11 Gonzaga on Tuesday. Will Gonzaga beat the reigning etc. I'm not losing sleep over this. But who the heck am I supposed to talk to about this stuff but you guys!

[viper]

Agreeing with all. No way am I bashing the MIAA. I'm one of the people guilty of talking about them too much. I love the MIAA. But not so much that I can't see that there are other quality, dare I say it, better teams in the Nation. It's much easier when a Landon or whoever is in a good conference, plays several quality OOC games, and then runs the table. But when this isn't the case, we've gotta do better than what's being put before us. That IL does what IL does doesn't bother me nearly as much as others repeating it. e.g. #1 CHC plays #11 Gonzaga on Tuesday. Will Gonzaga beat the reigning etc. I'm not losing sleep over this. But who the heck am I supposed to talk to about this stuff but you guys!

If there is question about Calvert Hall's ranking because of a supposed "weak" MIAA conference this year, lets not forget that over the course of the season they also beat Bullis, Gonzaga (scrimmages), Malvern Prep, Loyola Academy (IL) out of conference and very few of their wins were close. The only loss was to Hill and that was in OT.

Comparing CHC to Culver in common games - CHC beat McDonogh who beat Culver, and Culver beat Hill who beat CHC in OT. For what its worth (probably not much), CHC also handled Bullis and Gonzaga easily in preseason games as well.

Having said all that, I think CHC definitely merits consideration for the shared top spot that they received on IL.

[random observer]

Agreeing with all. No way am I bashing the MIAA. I'm one of the people guilty of talking about them too much. I love the MIAA. But not so much that I can't see that there are other quality, dare I say it, better teams in the Nation. It's much easier when a Landon or whoever is in a good conference, plays several quality OOC games, and then runs the table. But when this isn't the case, we've gotta do better than what's being put before us. That IL does what IL does doesn't bother me nearly as much as others repeating it. e.g. #1 CHC plays #11 Gonzaga on Tuesday. Will Gonzaga beat the reigning etc. I'm not losing sleep over this. But who the heck am I supposed to talk to about this stuff but you guys!

If there is question about Calvert Hall's ranking because of a supposed "weak" MIAA conference this year, lets not forget that over the course of the season they also beat Bullis, Gonzaga (scrimmages), Malvern Prep, Loyola Academy (IL) out of conference and very few of their wins were close. The only loss was to Hill and that was in OT.

Comparing CHC to Culver in common games - CHC beat McDonogh who beat Culver, and Culver beat Hill who beat CHC in OT. For what its worth (probably not much), CHC also handled Bullis and Gonzaga easily in preseason games as well.

Having said all that, I think CHC definitely merits consideration for the shared top spot that they received on IL.

Scrimmages are scrimmages. They do not merit consideration. Malvern Prep is a good win. Loyola Academy? Eh not so much -- and yeah CHC drilled them, but remember St. Anthony's drilled them as well (as did Chaminade).

CHC was as good as any team I saw this year. Really CHC, Culver, and St. Anthony's all have their arguments and there is no clear #1. It just irks me that in a situation with three really close teams, inevitably the Baltimore publication snubs the northeast team (especially when said team probably had the best resume if you really parse things out).

IMO if any of the three should have been left out in the cold it should have been Culver, but that's just my two cents.

[pcowlax]

Great respect for MIAA but this is an embarrassing post. Beat Loyola (IL) and won some SCRIMMAGES? Wow, that’s a great resume. MIAA vs top OOC teams this year was as bad as they have ever been. The league was very down. You reference a win vs BL as a good win? BL was absolutely mauled by every good OOC team they played. If you want to say you don’t care about OOC games and aren’t playing hard? OK. I don’t believe that at all in the era of online rankings and “national champions”. But ok. But if you go with that, and you lose multiple game to other top OOC teams, you can’t claim some sort of national ranking for just beating teams in your own conference. It’s not 1993, if you don’t play real top OOC teams (not from IL, NC, FL or TN), you have no claim on a top ranking. You want to site U19? Look at UA.

[Peter Brown]

It would have been very cool to see CHC play either St. A's or Chaminade this year. As a Maryland guy, I have seen CHC for a number of years; this was imo by far their best team in forever. They really blew it by losing to Hill, whom I did not think was all that great this year. Hill brings every ounce of energy to their annual tussle with CHC and CHC had a few missing players for that week. But whatevs...they needed to win that game to settle any debate, and they didn't.

This year's OOC schedule by CHC was frankly not that great and Coach K had the horses to give it a go. He had what I call a typical St. A's/Chaminade squad this year; at least 5 kids who will do serious business in D1.

As far as IF they had gotten St. A's or Chaminade on the calendar, honestly I did not see either of those teams in person (rather online), so who knows. I can only speak for CHC. That was a great squad. Coach should have challenged their OOC schedule a bit more and let the results speak for themselves. Sort of a missed opportunity so far as OOC. Obviously they took care of business in the MIAA (which was indeed weaker than what we call normal), but don't kid yourselves: CHC got significantly better every game they played; they'd have rolled a 'great' MIAA gauntlet.

[Lax_04]

I see that the Baltimore team ran the table in the 2020/21 division at the Under Armour All-America tournament. 22 of the 23 players on that team play in the current "down", "not overall great" MIAA conference.

Tewaarton, NCAA Tournament, professional drafts, national team try-outs, All-American tournaments, team computer rankings with no human bias... As these things happen the MIAA names keep coming up over and over again. It is really not "cherry picking", "disproportionate acclaim", "incredibly political", etc.

[Matnum PI]

Which "team computer ranking with no human bias" are you referring to?

This is relatively educated crew. No one is saying Baltimore lacrosse stinks. No one is even saying that LI Catholic lacrosse is better than Baltimore lacrosse. Some people are saying CHC's Ws and Ls are not as impressive as Culver's and St. Anthony's. And, as a consequence, they shouldn't be #1. Or, at the least, St. Anthonys should be #1 as well. In other words, CHC should not be ahead of St. Anthonys.

[Lax_04]

Which "team computer ranking with no human bias" are you referring to?

This one...

http://fanlax.com/fanlax/2019/03/15/201 ... -rankings/

St. A's #1 (respect) and seven MIAA schools in the top 25.

[Matnum PI]

100%. In that sense, 7 MIAAs in the Top 25, the MIAA had an up year.

[random observer]

I see that the Baltimore team ran the table in the 2020/21 division at the Under Armour All-America tournament. 22 of the 23 players on that team play in the current "down", "not overall great" MIAA conference.

Tewaarton, NCAA Tournament, professional drafts, national team try-outs, All-American tournaments, team computer rankings with no human bias... As these things happen the MIAA names keep coming up over and over again. It is really not "cherry picking", "disproportionate acclaim", "incredibly political", etc.

1. The success of this Baltimore Highlight team is more of an indicator of how good the MIAA will be next year, not this past year. The 2019 class was not particularly strong by MIAA standards, but the 2020 class is the best I can remember coming out of Baltimore in many years. Any comments disparaging the MIAA on this board this year are related to actual results on the field vs. the somewhat out-sized acclaim they received; not theoretical talent and most definitely not how the teams project next year.

2. The UA games are indeed an indicator for regional success, but not a completely robust one. For one they don't account for regional depth beyond the first 23 players in a region (this is not an issue for the MIAA as obviously that league has depth); obviously the non-hotbed regions in particular pull from a much wider net to maintain some competitive balance. More importantly, the process does not always pull the best players for whatever reason whether it be politics or kids just not trying out. LI's Highlight team was missing most of the best players from the region: some like O'Neill and Arline probably opted out after making the U19 cut, while others (McAdorey, the Schwarz twins) aren't on the team for reasons unknown. Again, not really directed at Baltimore who had a couple of excellent players (Kelly and Korus) decline to play after making the U19 cut.

[CTlaxer12]

Which "team computer ranking with no human bias" are you referring to?

This one...

http://fanlax.com/fanlax/2019/03/15/201 ... -rankings/

St. A's #1 (respect) and seven MIAA schools in the top 25.

Lax 04, it seems like you are conflating two somewhat related but distinct points made by some of us on this board. No one is arguing that - in most years- the MIAA is one of the premier conferences in high school lacrosse. However, this year the league did not have the same power it had in prior years. Case in point- it really didn’t fair all that well out of conference.

However, that is not the main point of contention with many of us. The main issue is the disproportionate coverage the league received this year at the expense of some great teams and games. Case in point, this years MIAA quarterfinals received more attention from IL than the St. A’s/Chaminade championship game. That game was the best high game I had seen in some time and the quilt of those two teams on the same field was a site to behold. Not a single game played in the MIAA this year featured that level of play between two teams. To be so easily ignored by IL is almost criminal.

Then when you come to final rankings by IL, St. A’s is so quickly dispatched to 3rd. As some others pointed, if CHC or Culver had that resume, either would be the undisputed #1 by IL. But because it was a northeast, and more specifically an LI team, IL dispatched with them.

I do not have a problem with the skewed IL Baltimore coverage, but change the name to IL Baltimore Lacrosse and don’t pass yourself off as a national magazine. And most certainly don’t have your lead high school “correspondent” (a graduate of the MIAA) blatantly writing how he pays little or no attention to teams outside of the MIAA. Problem solved.