All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

I did not say "reunification", I did not say "administrative action".

I said "annexed" which is the correct, appropriate legal descriptor,
...despite what you try to distort it into meaning.

[OCanada]

Annexed - to take for one self. They did take the Crimea for themselves.

It was not legal it was and is illegal despite what the Russian apologists want to claim

[MDlaxfan76]

I did not say "reunification", I did not say "administrative action".

I said "annexed" which is the correct, appropriate legal descriptor,
...despite what you try to distort it into meaning.

You and I agree on the meaning of the term.
However, your posts have long implied that the Russians were justified in this illegal, forcible taking, as opposed to the reverse.

But note that the word annexation implies that the action can be made legitimate through international recognition. But it wasn't actually annexation.

The Russians rolled in militarily. It was actually an invasion, a "conquest", except that it was done with Russian troops with no flag. Russian troops, Russian equipment. With overwhelming additional forces on the border.

It was not actually an annexation. It was a conquest. Both are illegal.

[old salt]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

[CU77]

The USSR was NOT "broken up". It broke itself up. Russia wasn't able to hold on to the pieces that left.

[old salt]

An independent Ukraine is an accident of history.
The Crimea became part of Ukraine when both were part of the USSR,
at the whim of Kruschev, for Soviet domestic political reasons.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publicatio ... -years-ago

[MDlaxfan76]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

Actually, "Manifest Destiny" was always "bad". US too.
It's interesting that you want to justify actions taken that are considered illegal in the post WWII international construct and instead apply the ethics and mores of the imperialist construct of pre WWII as justification for those now illegal actions.

Your responses are right out of the Russian propaganda playbook.
Fascinating.

[OCanada]

OS a Russian apologist to the end. The Soviet Union was always going to be a failed state. It was never economically viable. It imploded. And then imploded again.

Prior to Russia Ukraine has been ruled by Poland, Czech and Lithusnia. Seems they would have prior claim. Nonetheless under international law it is a country. Tossing millions under the Russian bus seems a betrayal of what we used to stand for.

For OS the human rights of all those occupied states don’t matter much. False construct? Most countries in the world are false constructs if you go back far enough, borders are artificial barriers and constructs. Under the world order created post WW ll UK is a state. It is the third country Russia has used force to try its imperial ambitions out on.

If they don’t want to live there move back to Russia. They got there by moving. Russia has motivated population shift in order to build a presence

[OCanada]

The Soviet Union gave us Stalin who ruled until 1952. Solzhenitsyn estimated he was responsible for 60 million deaths. He gave us gulags, famine, a reign of terror, and re-education camps.

Putin is the capo di tutti capo of a world wide organized crime enterprise. He is considered the wealthiest man in the world. Oligarchs serve at his pleasure. Russians fear him but don’t love him. Alcoholism is a huge problem. Those who can leave....leave.

I was involved, as I noted before, with a Russian woman who was a minor tv personality and whose ex husband was the on a Russian men’s national team.

No one in the UK wants to be under the Russian thumb unless they were Russian and even then..,

[Typical Lax Dad]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

You are on record for believe the natives here did not get screwed.

[OCanada]

Really?? I did not know. We broke every treaty we ever signed with them. When you break your word what adjective fo you use for the counter party?

I didn’t realize how little regard OS had for human rights, the law and a government that serves the people

[OCanada]

Why wouldn’t we want to not spend monies appropriated to protect the integrity of our elections or even staff the effort to do it? We can trust Putin I am see. Well sinecof us ate counting on him



Russian Disinformation: A study by the Atlantic Council’s Digital Forensic Research Lab found that social media accounts operating from Russia were seeding false narratives across 30 different online platforms, with the goal of dividing, distracting, and discrediting. Moscow has repeatedly denied allegations that it’s behind these efforts. (Reuters)

[old salt]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

Actually, "Manifest Destiny" was always "bad". US too.
It's interesting that you want to justify actions taken that are considered illegal in the post WWII international construct and instead apply the ethics and mores of the imperialist construct of pre WWII as justification for those now illegal actions.

Your responses are right out of the Russian propaganda playbook.
Fascinating.

So you're ok with returning TX & CA to Mexico ? Fascinating.
Your responses are right out of the failed neo-con Vulcan playbook.
Why is the post WWII construct any more sacrosanct than the post WW I construct, or the post Treaties of Westphalia construct ?

You took me to task for using the legally & historically accurate term -- "annexed". which you deem insufficiently condemnatory, ...or hyperbolic.
Silly, absurd, biased nit picking.

[old salt]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

You are on record for believe the natives here did not get screwed.

More dishonorable lying from you. Produce a quote.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

You are on record for believe the natives here did not get screwed.

More dishonorable lying from you. Produce a quote.

I didn’t take an oath. You did. Disgraceful...you are free to say “the natives got a raw deal”....

[MDlaxfan76]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

Actually, "Manifest Destiny" was always "bad". US too.
It's interesting that you want to justify actions taken that are considered illegal in the post WWII international construct and instead apply the ethics and mores of the imperialist construct of pre WWII as justification for those now illegal actions.

Your responses are right out of the Russian propaganda playbook.
Fascinating.

So you're ok with returning TX & CA to Mexico ? Fascinating.
Your responses are right out of the failed neo-con Vulcan playbook.
Why is the post WWII construct any more sacrosanct than the post WW I construct, or the post Treaties of Westphalia construct ?

You took me to task for using the legally & historically accurate term -- "annexed". which you deem insufficiently condemnatory, ...or hyperbolic.
Silly, absurd, biased nit picking.

For someone who constantly whines about people putting words in your mouth, here you go again.

Yes, I made fun of your use of the word "annexed" as if that's actually all that Russia did with regard to Crimea. As your subsequent posts indeed made clear, you appear to want to provide cover for a clearly illegal, aggressive taking of territory from another sovereign. Why? Well, it sure appears to be that it's Russia doing the taking. We have no idea why you're so much of a Putin apologist, but this is just another obvious example.

Of course it matters what what construct we use to evaluate an action. The standard is current international law.

Whaddya want to do, go back to Ghenghis Khan?
Nah, you prefer Stalin.

[OCanada]

Why is the post WW ll more sacred? These things are measured in the the currency of the age.

The post WW ll construct was an American construct establishing the modern day rule set.

It succeeded to introduce perhaps the greatest economic, political, sociological era in history. We escaped another world war. We integrated the world beyond imagining. We defeated the Soviet Union which may be the core of your issue. The values embedded are not yours at the core.

How did the world order after WW l work out?

Gustavus Adolphus should have invaded Russia instead of fighting for the protestent side

[old salt]

Long implied ? I've long believed that the USSR should not have been broken up.
In that radical idea I agreed with GHW Bush, Gorbachev, Scowcroft, Zbig Brzzzkii, Henry the K & Putin.
The Ukraine, as a nation-state, is a false construct.
The Tartars & Cossacks in Crimea prefer being a part of a corrupt Russia to being part of a corrupt Ukraine.
How many casualties were there in Russia's "invasion" of Crimea ?
Should the US void our illegal annexation of TX & return it to Mexico ?
...now California ? ...maybe.
US Manifest Destiny = Good ; Russian Manifest Destiny = Bad.

Actually, "Manifest Destiny" was always "bad". US too.
It's interesting that you want to justify actions taken that are considered illegal in the post WWII international construct and instead apply the ethics and mores of the imperialist construct of pre WWII as justification for those now illegal actions.

Your responses are right out of the Russian propaganda playbook.
Fascinating.

So you're ok with returning TX & CA to Mexico ? Fascinating.
Your responses are right out of the failed neo-con Vulcan playbook.
Why is the post WWII construct any more sacrosanct than the post WW I construct, or the post Treaties of Westphalia construct ?

You took me to task for using the legally & historically accurate term -- "annexed". which you deem insufficiently condemnatory, ...or hyperbolic.
Silly, absurd, biased nit picking.

For someone who constantly whines about people putting words in your mouth, here you go again.

Yes, I made fun of your use of the word "annexed" as if that's actually all that Russia did with regard to Crimea. As your subsequent posts indeed made clear, you appear to want to provide cover for a clearly illegal, aggressive taking of territory from another sovereign. Why? Well, it sure appears to be that it's Russia doing the taking. We have no idea why you're so much of a Putin apologist, but this is just another obvious example.

Of course it matters what what construct we use to evaluate an action. The standard is current international law.

Whaddya want to do, go back to Ghenghis Khan?
Nah, you prefer Stalin.

I used a neutral one word non-judgemental descriptor of how Crimea became part of Russia again, in the context of a larger discussion.
You chose to nit pick & exaggerate it beyond the scope of the discussion.
I try to make my point with as few a words as possible -- you should try it sometime.

Perhaps you should try to look at it from the perspective of the Russian people.
It's their country & their history. They feel the post Cold War order was imposed on them by the West.
Their resentment is not without some merit.

[a fan]

Perhaps you should try to look at it from the perspective of the Russian people.
It's their country & their history. They feel the post Cold War order was imposed on them by the West.
Their resentment is not without some merit.

Ah yes, I think that all us Americans long for the days of the Soviet Union.

Let's see what we can do to put those countries back under the rightful, and caring thumb of Vlad. Putin, shall we?

I don't think anyone would care if the Ukrainians voted to be part of the Soviet Union again. Voted. Without troops in their front yard.


The thing I don't get how quickly and easily you sympathize with the Soviet viewpoint.....and yet seem utterly oblivious to the Iranian perspective when you advocate that we casually and thoughtlessly renege on the Nuclear Deal, as if trust is wholly immaterial to negotiations.

Help a brother out? Where is this coming from?

[old salt]

Their national roots go back to the days of the Russian & Austro-Hungarian Empires.

I don't revert to the Soviet perspective.
Your (& mdlf76's) McCarthyite demagogy became baseless when Slick Willie & Boris toasted throughout the '90's.

It used to be chic to look at things from the perspective of the Russian people.