Syracuse 2021

[DocBarrister]

Blue Jays beat Rutgers and lost their last two games to Maryland by just three total goals.

As the NCAA tournament proceeds, I think you’ll better appreciate just how much of an accomplishment that was.

Hey, if you're happy with a 4-9 season, and happy with that accomplishment, that's great.

But let's not forget that Petro's last full season in 2019 season had a nearly identical showing in the Big Ten Tournament.

Coach Milliman is not a one-year investment. No one is happy with a 4-9 record, certainly not Hopkins fans.

What Hopkins fans were looking for was a coaching staff that could lead the current players in the right direction. We got that. Most impressive to many of us was the effort and resilience of the players throughout the season. They fought hard to the very end. Win-loss records are important, but they’re not the only important things in sports.

Johns Hopkins has been winning lacrosse national championships since the 19th century. This was a uniquely challenging season for Hopkins. If the players haven’t given up on Coach Milliman, neither will we.

Future looks bright for the Blue Jays.

DocBarrister

P.S. Bonus: We have hijacked the Syracuse thread!

[tech37]

Danowski’s last 10 years at Hofstra he made 7 NCAA Tournaments, 3 Quarterfinals, and had 9 winning seasons. His last season they were 17-2 and were a blown 4Q lead from the F4. It was the best run of success in Hofstra history.

He was pretty good at developing and coaching players at Hofstra; and he had the results to prove it

Yes! But Petro and Desko have those results to point to as well, remember?

How many Final Fours and Championship Rings does Desko have, again?

Have those results come in the last 10 years? Petro’s last 10 years he made 1 F4. In his last 5 he had 1 NCAA Tournament win and was looking at a losing season in 2020.

Desko’s last 10 years he has 1 Final Four. Last 5 years he has 1 NCAA Tournament win and in this year one of the more disappointing years in team history.

Not to rationalize, but do want want to hold anyone accountable for this season's results...all things (Covid) considered?

Obviously the Covid element is hard to gauge. But other teams with Cuse’s expectations coming in - Duke, Carolina, Maryland - they all lived up to their expectations this year. Cuse is the one who didnt.

This is true...

[44WeWantMore]

Desko’s last 10 years he has 1 Final Four. Last 5 years he has 1 NCAA Tournament win and in this year one of the more disappointing years in team history.

Yes, i know.

My question to you is, which of the two are more likely:

1. That two HOF coaches in Desko and Petro, who have a combined Seven Championship rings suddenly "forgot" how to coach and develop players over the last ten years or,

2. That both coaches did a poor job recruiting with all the changes in the lacrosse and cultural landscape, and the top players landed elsewhere?

I know where my money is. This isn't a complicated sport.

If they did a poor job recruiting then they shouldn’t be the coach anymore. Recruiting is the coaches job!!

Two salesmen. One consistently makes his quota; the other does not. They swap territories, and then the bad salesman suddenly makes quota and the good one does not. Sometimes a salesman is a better fit for his territory, sometimes his product is a better fit for his territory, but without the ability to run controlled experiments, we are really guessing.

So my guess, to continue the hijack, sure the 2021 end of season looked good for the Jays, but so did the end of 2019. We have to give it more time to make a judgement.

If I were a SU fan, I would want to see what Desko can do with his great recruiting class coming in.

[wgdsr]

Danowski’s last 10 years at Hofstra he made 7 NCAA Tournaments, 3 Quarterfinals, and had 9 winning seasons. His last season they were 17-2 and were a blown 4Q lead from the F4. It was the best run of success in Hofstra history.

He was pretty good at developing and coaching players at Hofstra; and he had the results to prove it

Yes! But Petro and Desko have those results to point to as well, remember?

How many Final Fours and Championship Rings does Desko have, again?

Have those results come in the last 10 years? Petro’s last 10 years he made 1 F4. In his last 5 he had 1 NCAA Tournament win and was looking at a losing season in 2020.

Desko’s last 10 years he has 1 Final Four. Last 5 years he has 1 NCAA Tournament win and in this year one of the more disappointing years in team history.

Not to rationalize, but do want want to hold anyone accountable for this season's results...all things (Covid) considered?

Obviously the Covid element is hard to gauge. But other teams with Cuse’s expectations coming in - Duke, Carolina, Maryland - they all lived up to their expectations this year. Cuse is the one who didnt.

This is true...

have they, though? if any of them fall this weekend, was that the expectation?

and while duke can still win the title. wasn't the lax media and mafia crowning them in january? "crown 'em!!" they've escaped plenty and lost twice. there was a thread on duke vs the field. i got somebody to jump on that for nirchi's pizza. nirchi's!!!

i don't think duke's running away with it like secretariat. could happen, i guess.

[tech37]

Danowski’s last 10 years at Hofstra he made 7 NCAA Tournaments, 3 Quarterfinals, and had 9 winning seasons. His last season they were 17-2 and were a blown 4Q lead from the F4. It was the best run of success in Hofstra history.

He was pretty good at developing and coaching players at Hofstra; and he had the results to prove it

Yes! But Petro and Desko have those results to point to as well, remember?

How many Final Fours and Championship Rings does Desko have, again?

Have those results come in the last 10 years? Petro’s last 10 years he made 1 F4. In his last 5 he had 1 NCAA Tournament win and was looking at a losing season in 2020.

Desko’s last 10 years he has 1 Final Four. Last 5 years he has 1 NCAA Tournament win and in this year one of the more disappointing years in team history.

Not to rationalize, but do want want to hold anyone accountable for this season's results...all things (Covid) considered?

Obviously the Covid element is hard to gauge. But other teams with Cuse’s expectations coming in - Duke, Carolina, Maryland - they all lived up to their expectations this year. Cuse is the one who didnt.

This is true...

have they, though? if any of them fall this weekend, was that the expectation?

and while duke can still win the title. wasn't the lax media and mafia crowning them in january? "crown 'em!!" they've escaped plenty and lost twice. there was a thread on duke vs the field. i got somebody to jump on that for nirchi's pizza. nirchi's!!!

i don't think duke's running away with it like secretariat. could happen, i guess.

I think so. Reaching the qtr finals puts your team into an equivalent elite class these days. The only blowout I can imagine is UNC vs Rutgers.

[6ftstick]

I think this is the appropriate place for this.

Remember when there was only one player in all of NCAA lacrosse with the skills of Mike Powell. And it was Mike Powell.

Now theres two Mikeys and a Kyle Harrison or two on every team in the final 8.

Excitin stuff coming up thi weekend.

[HopFan16]

I think this is the appropriate place for this.

Remember when there was only one player in all of NCAA lacrosse with the skills of Mike Powell. And it was Mike Powell.

Now theres two Mikeys and a Kyle Harrison or two on every team in the final 8.

Excitin stuff coming up thi weekend.

I get the point you're making but to be clear there are 0 Kyle Harrisons on any of those teams.

If I were a SU fan, I would want to see what Desko can do with his great recruiting class coming in.

Other than Spallina, who seems like as much of a "sure thing" as there is in this sport (though you never know for sure), how do we know the recruiting class as a whole is great? How many times did Hopkins have great recruiting classes *on paper* only for them to fail to meet expectations on the field? If, as a fan argues, these kids are either good lacrosse players or they aren't and their fates are already sealed before arriving on campus and you might as well put them in a simulation and you'd get the same result after 4 years because coaches have no impact on how players develop, then it's clear that the rankings (which is how we know classes to be "great" or not) are completely meaningless. Because if they were accurate, we'd have been to quite a few more Final Fours recently.

[Bacondoesstuff]

still don't think ive seen someone with Mike Powell's skills since Mike Powell, but I get your point.

[10stone5]

Chris Gray, Michael Sowers, Lyle Thompson,
Pat Spencer, maybe a couple others ...

... Grant Ament for one season.

[JeremyCuse]

Chris Gray, Michael Sowers, Lyle Thompson,
Pat Spencer, maybe a couple others ...

... Grant Ament for one season.

All great players, none are Mike Powell. Sowers is probably the closest with Gray not far behind.

[pcowlax]

Chris Gray, Michael Sowers, Lyle Thompson,
Pat Spencer, maybe a couple others ...

... Grant Ament for one season.

All great players, none are Mike Powell. Sowers is probably the closest with Gray not far behind.

Hey now. Maybe not the best team player but if we are talking just lacrosse skills, literally stick ability, not vision, athleticism, IQ, then Lyle Thompson is second to no one. Of course there is more to being a great player than that and the Powell’s combined skills with game sense. But Lyle is very possibly the GOAT with a stick.

[Bacondoesstuff]

For me, what separated MP from the others, was his athletic ability. I've always thought he looked like he had legit D-1 football CB athleticism.

[a fan]

Desko’s last 10 years he has 1 Final Four. Last 5 years he has 1 NCAA Tournament win and in this year one of the more disappointing years in team history.

Yes, i know.

My question to you is, which of the two are more likely:

1. That two HOF coaches in Desko and Petro, who have a combined Seven Championship rings suddenly "forgot" how to coach and develop players over the last ten years or,

2. That both coaches did a poor job recruiting with all the changes in the lacrosse and cultural landscape, and the top players landed elsewhere?

I know where my money is. This isn't a complicated sport.

You keep setting up a flawed premise. It's not so black and white.

You're moving the goalposts on me here. I'm not talking about a coach making a team a little better or a little worse based on many valid factors you have listed.....

What I was talking about is making Final Fours on a consistent basis as a program. If that's the goal? All the coaching in the world won't get you there without elite talent. And Petro and Desko haven't had that since Donahue & Rice, and Stanwick & Brown left. And do you remember how those teams did when Desko and Petro had those elite players?

Syracuse hasn't had a top 20 scorer since 2015. Do you think this---and the poorer results on the field--- is some super coincidence?

It's possible to underachieve even if you don't have championship caliber talent. Did you watch the Mount St. Mary's game last year? Do you think that 2020 MSM team had the same amount of talent as Hopkins just because the game went to overtime?

I did see it. And I thought the same thing that I did when Bryant almost beat UVa. 1. upsets happen in sports and 2.The talent disparity in D1 is shrinking.

No one is arguing Petro squandered championship talent.

Complete buffalo bagels. Over the last five years, DOZENS of posters on the Hop thread claimed that Petro had elite classes coming in. And claimed that Petro and Benson ruined them and/or didn't play the right guys. Remember all the whining about Zinn not playing? Suddenly all those Monday morning QB's are quiet now that they know that they were loading absurd expectation on the kid, and he just wasn't an elite middie (no shame in being a D1 caliber middie).

THAT is what I've been reacting to....and some SU fans are making the same dumb complaints. It really makes me wonder if they bother paying attention to the other top teams for even a single game a year. We don't have a Sowers. We don't have a Gray. I have NO IDEA how a seasoned lacrosse fan doesn't see this.

And I'm also reacting to the absurd idea that the difference between Sowers and (pick any current Syracuse attackman) is coaching and player development. If that was anywhere close to true, I would have started at Syracuse during the Gait era.

And I recognize that you aren't one of these unreasonable homer fans, HopFan. My post is aimed at the unreasonable fans on the Hop thread over the last few years. And heck, many of those with the stupid, moronic "Inside lacrosse sez Hopkins has the #1 recruiting class" garbage aren't even Hop fans.

[a fan]

Desko’s last 10 years he has 1 Final Four. Last 5 years he has 1 NCAA Tournament win and in this year one of the more disappointing years in team history.

Yes, i know.

My question to you is, which of the two are more likely:

1. That two HOF coaches in Desko and Petro, who have a combined Seven Championship rings suddenly "forgot" how to coach and develop players over the last ten years or,

2. That both coaches did a poor job recruiting with all the changes in the lacrosse and cultural landscape, and the top players landed elsewhere?

I know where my money is. This isn't a complicated sport.

If they did a poor job recruiting then they shouldn’t be the coach anymore. Recruiting is the coaches job!!

Yes. But that's not what many are complaining about....they've been telling us that the kids arriving at Homewood and the Dome are the best of the best....and Petro and Desko have been ruining them.

[youthathletics]

Who is they, to whom you refer?

[wgdsr]

Who is they, to whom you refer?

doc barrister. he means doc and barrister. the attorney and also the public health expert.

[MDlaxfan76]

Who is they, to whom you refer?

doc barrister. he means doc and barrister. the attorney and also the public health expert.

long running post feud...

I guess my question would be is whether a Tewey level player is definitely needed to make the Final Four...or to win the NC ?

Over the last decade, that's lined up some of the time...but all of the time?

Is it sometimes enough to have a whole bunch of really good players at their respective positions, no major weaknesses, but not the very, very best at any, including attack, and get there?

what's the data say?

For instance, who was that terribly special player on North Carolina in 2016?

[6ftstick]

Who is they, to whom you refer?

doc barrister. he means doc and barrister. the attorney and also the public health expert.

long running post feud...

I guess my question would be is whether a Tewey level player is definitely needed to make the Final Four...or to win the NC ?

Over the last decade, that's lined up some of the time...but all of the time?

Is it sometimes enough to have a whole bunch of really good players at their respective positions, no major weaknesses, but not the very, very best at any, including attack, and get there?

what's the data say?

For instance, who was that terribly special player on North Carolina in 2016?

5th and 6th year seniors add to the equation.

[HopFan16]

What I was talking about is making Final Fours on a consistent basis as a program. If that's the goal? All the coaching in the world won't get you there without elite talent. And Petro and Desko haven't had that since Donahue & Rice, and Stanwick & Brown left. And do you remember how those teams did when Desko and Petro had those elite players?

Yeah, Hopkins went to one Final Four with those players, and it required a miracle to get there. They also got clobbered in two first round games with those guys on the roster (and missed the tournament entirely another season, albeit that was Brown's freshman year). Not sure that's making the argument you think it's making.

No one is arguing Petro squandered championship talent.

Complete buffalo bagels. Over the last five years, DOZENS of posters on the Hop thread claimed that Petro had elite classes coming in. And claimed that Petro and Benson ruined them and/or didn't play the right guys. Remember all the whining about Zinn not playing? Suddenly all those Monday morning QB's are quiet now that they know that they were loading absurd expectation on the kid, and he just wasn't an elite middie (no shame in being a D1 caliber middie).

I dunno, maybe, but it seems to me that most weren't expecting anything close to championships in the last 2+ seasons. I for one would have been satisfied with a quarterfinal appearance in 2019 or...literally anything other than what happened in 2020, but we don't need to keep talking about that. Point is, expectations have generally been lowered—maybe not among everyone, but I think the consensus has shifted.

If you want to extend back to the first half of the previous decade, when I was a student at Hopkins, I do think you can make an argument that those teams failed to live up to its championship-caliber talent. Tucker Durkin, John Ranagan, Mike Poppleton, Pierce Bassett, etc...those were pretty elite players surrounded by a ton of very, very good players in guys like Wharton, Lightner, Greeley, Coppersmith, Reilly, Castronova, Burkhart, Palmer, Benn. Teams riddled with All-Americans. Those teams were routinely ranked in the top 3 in polls, with multiple stretches of being #1. But they choked in the playoffs every year. Not a single Final Four appearance to show for it during 2009-2014 at a time when I think most would agree they had better players, in general, than they do now. They also mixed a losing record in there (2010) and missed the playoffs entirely in 2013 although that season was impacted by the rolling suspension debacle.

[ohmilax34]

What I was talking about is making Final Fours on a consistent basis as a program. If that's the goal? All the coaching in the world won't get you there without elite talent. And Petro and Desko haven't had that since Donahue & Rice, and Stanwick & Brown left. And do you remember how those teams did when Desko and Petro had those elite players?

Yeah, Hopkins went to one Final Four with those players, and it required a miracle to get there. They also got clobbered in two first round games with those guys on the roster (and missed the tournament entirely another season, albeit that was Brown's freshman year). Not sure that's making the argument you think it's making.

No one is arguing Petro squandered championship talent.

Complete buffalo bagels. Over the last five years, DOZENS of posters on the Hop thread claimed that Petro had elite classes coming in. And claimed that Petro and Benson ruined them and/or didn't play the right guys. Remember all the whining about Zinn not playing? Suddenly all those Monday morning QB's are quiet now that they know that they were loading absurd expectation on the kid, and he just wasn't an elite middie (no shame in being a D1 caliber middie).

I dunno, maybe, but it seems to me that most weren't expecting anything close to championships in the last 2+ seasons. I for one would have been satisfied with a quarterfinal appearance in 2019 or...literally anything other than what happened in 2020, but we don't need to keep talking about that. Point is, expectations have generally been lowered—maybe not among everyone, but I think the consensus has shifted.

If you want to extend back to the first half of the previous decade, when I was a student at Hopkins, I do think you can make an argument that those teams failed to live up to its championship-caliber talent. Tucker Durkin, John Ranagan, Mike Poppleton, Pierce Bassett, etc...those were pretty elite players surrounded by a ton of very, very good players in guys like Wharton, Lightner, Greeley, Coppersmith, Reilly, Castronova, Burkhart, Palmer, Benn. Teams riddled with All-Americans. Those teams were routinely ranked in the top 3 in polls, with multiple stretches of being #1. But they choked in the playoffs every year. Not a single Final Four appearance to show for it during 2009-2014 at a time when I think most would agree they had better players, in general, than they do now. They also mixed a losing record in there (2010) and missed the playoffs entirely in 2013 although that season was impacted by the rolling suspension debacle.

Similarly, Syracuse had an attack unit of Rice, Donahue, Staats for two season and won one playoff game, against Marist, in those two seasons. That was disappointing.