Religion in America

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14863
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by youthathletics »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:30 am
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:42 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm Which one is from an actual Christian.....you make the call.

~ "pray that God would work in his heart so that war could be avoided at all cost."
~ "Ukraine war is testing evangelicals’ love of Putin as a conservative hero"
Actually, could have been either.
Not sure why you'd assume either was more likely.

The issue for Franklin Graham is that he hadn't bothered to offer any prayers for those who would most likely suffer...and this is, indeed, in the context of those who have thought of Putin as a "Christian"...is he, really?

Graham ain't his father...
B/c the headlines goal was to paint a negative....seems they succeeded, at least for the typical people that are looking to judge and find it.

But Graham is a son to our Father. :D
Straight question: Do you think Putin is a Christian?
No clue.
Really?
Do you think that a war criminal can be a Christian?
A follower of Jesus' teaching?
If he is born again then all sins are forgiven, so my born again friends preech.
MD has a bat-phone to Christ.....it's why he has all the answers and considers his writings omniscient. ;)
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32460
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:30 am
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:42 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm Which one is from an actual Christian.....you make the call.

~ "pray that God would work in his heart so that war could be avoided at all cost."
~ "Ukraine war is testing evangelicals’ love of Putin as a conservative hero"
Actually, could have been either.
Not sure why you'd assume either was more likely.

The issue for Franklin Graham is that he hadn't bothered to offer any prayers for those who would most likely suffer...and this is, indeed, in the context of those who have thought of Putin as a "Christian"...is he, really?

Graham ain't his father...
B/c the headlines goal was to paint a negative....seems they succeeded, at least for the typical people that are looking to judge and find it.

But Graham is a son to our Father. :D
Straight question: Do you think Putin is a Christian?
No clue.
Really?
Do you think that a war criminal can be a Christian?
A follower of Jesus' teaching?
If he is born again then all sins are forgiven, so my born again friends preech.
How many born agains can Putin get? Is there a limit?
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 14247
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by cradleandshoot »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:46 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:30 am
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:42 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm Which one is from an actual Christian.....you make the call.

~ "pray that God would work in his heart so that war could be avoided at all cost."
~ "Ukraine war is testing evangelicals’ love of Putin as a conservative hero"
Actually, could have been either.
Not sure why you'd assume either was more likely.

The issue for Franklin Graham is that he hadn't bothered to offer any prayers for those who would most likely suffer...and this is, indeed, in the context of those who have thought of Putin as a "Christian"...is he, really?

Graham ain't his father...
B/c the headlines goal was to paint a negative....seems they succeeded, at least for the typical people that are looking to judge and find it.

But Graham is a son to our Father. :D
Straight question: Do you think Putin is a Christian?
No clue.
Really?
Do you think that a war criminal can be a Christian?
A follower of Jesus' teaching?
If he is born again then all sins are forgiven, so my born again friends preech.
How many born agains can Putin get? Is there a limit?
Great question. The born
agains never explain that little conundrum. I believe there is no limit to the mulligans born again Christians hand out like jelly beans.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
Seacoaster(1)
Posts: 4545
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: Religion in America

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

More on the creepy cocktail of American Right Wing Theocratic thinking and politics. Sorry I can't copy the crazy photos from the article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/06/us/c ... itics.html

"They opened with an invocation, summoning God’s “hedge of thorns and fire” to protect each person in the dark Phoenix parking lot.

They called for testimonies, passing the microphone to anyone with “inspirational words that they’d like to say on behalf of our J-6 political prisoners,” referring to people arrested in connection with the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol, whom they were honoring a year later.

Then, holding candles dripping wax, the few dozen who were gathered lifted their voices, a cappella, in a song treasured by millions of believers who sing it on Sundays and know its words by heart:

Way maker, miracle worker, promise keeper
Light in the darkness, my God
That is who you are …

This was not a church service. It was worship for a new kind of congregation: a right-wing political movement powered by divine purpose, whose adherents find spiritual sustenance in political action.

The Christian right has been intertwined with American conservatism for decades, culminating in the Trump era. And elements of Christian culture have long been present at political rallies. But worship, a sacred act showing devotion to God expressed through movement, song or prayer, was largely reserved for church. Now, many believers are importing their worship of God, with all its intensity, emotion and ambitions, to their political life.

At events across the United States, it is not unusual for participants to describe encountering the divine and feel they are doing their part to install God’s kingdom on earth. For them, right-wing political activity itself is becoming a holy act.

These Christians are joining secular members of the right wing, including media-savvy opportunists and those touting disinformation. They represent a wide array of discontent, from opposing vaccine mandates to promoting election conspiracy theories. For many, pandemic restrictions that temporarily closed houses of worship accelerated their distrust of government and made churchgoing political.

At a Trump rally in Michigan last weekend, a local evangelist offered a prayer that stated, “Father in heaven, we firmly believe that Donald Trump is the current and true president of the United States.” He prayed “in Jesus’ name” that precinct delegates at the upcoming Michigan Republican Party convention would support Trump-endorsed candidates, whose names he listed to the crowd. “In Jesus’ name,” the crowd cheered back.

The infusion of explicitly religious fervor — much of it rooted in the charismatic tradition, which emphasizes the power of the Holy Spirit — into the right-wing movement is changing the atmosphere of events and rallies, many of which feature Christian symbols and rituals, especially praise music.

With spiritual mission driving political ideals, the stakes of any conflict, whether over masks or school curriculums, can feel that much larger, and compromise can be even more difficult to achieve. Political ambitions come to be about defending God, pointing to a desire to build a nation that actively promotes a particular set of Christian beliefs.

“What is refreshing for me is, this isn’t at all related to church, but we are talking about God,” said Patty Castillo Porter, who attended the Phoenix event. She is an accountant and officer with a local Republican committee to represent “the voice of the Grassroots/America First posse,” and said she loved meeting so many Christians at the rallies she attends to protest election results, border policy or Covid mandates.

“Now God is relevant,” she said. “You name it, God is there, because people know you can’t trust your politicians, you can’t trust your sheriffs, you can’t trust law enforcement. The only one you can trust is God right now.”

The parking-lot vigil was sponsored by a right-wing voter mobilization effort focused on dismantling election policy. Not everyone there knew the words to “Way Maker,” the contemporary Christian megahit. A few men, armed with guns and accompanied by a German shepherd, stood at the edge of the gathering, smoking and talking about what they were seeing on Infowars, a website that traffics in conspiracy theories. Others, many of whom attended charismatic or evangelical churches, sang along. 

Worship elements embedded into these events are recognizably evangelical. There is prayer and proclamation, shared rituals and stories. Perhaps the most powerful element is music. The anthems of the contemporary evangelical church, many of which were written in just the last few years, are blending with rising political anger, becoming the soundtrack to a new fight.

Religious music, prayer and symbols have been part of protest settings throughout American history, for diverging causes, including the civil rights movement. Music is personal, able to move listeners in ways sermons or speeches cannot. Singing unites people in body and mind, and creates a sense of being part of a story, a song, greater than yourself.

The sheer dominance of worship music within 21st-century evangelical culture means that the genre has been used outside church settings by the contemporary left as well. “Way Maker,” for example, was sung at some demonstrations for racial justice in the summer of 2020.

The use of music is now key to movement-building power on the right.

At the protest that paralyzed the Canadian capital in February, a group of demonstrators belted out “I raise a hallelujah, my weapon is a melody” from a hit from the influential California label Bethel Music. Amid the honks of trucks, they called on God to metaphorically topple the walls of Parliament, recalling the biblical story of how God crumbled the walls of Jericho, and to end vaccine mandates.

At a recent conference in Arizona promoting anti-vaccine messages and election conspiracy theories, organizers blasted “Fresh Wind,” from the global church Hillsong, and a rock-rap novelty song with a chorus that began “We will not comply.”

A growing belief among conservative Christians is that the United States is on the cusp of a revival, one where spiritual and political change are bound together.

“We are seeing a spiritual awakening taking place,” said Ché Ahn, the pastor of Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, who became a hero to many when his church successfully sued Gov. Gavin Newsom of California for banning indoor worship during the pandemic. “Christians are becoming more involved, becoming activists. I think that is a good thing, because the church has been slumbering.”

The explicit use of evangelical worship for partisan protest took root in the early pandemic lockdowns, notably after California banned indoor church services and singing. Sean Feucht, a worship leader from Northern California, ran a failed campaign for Congress in 2020, and then launched a series of outdoor events, titled “Let Us Worship,” to defy pandemic restrictions. Thousands of Christians flocked to his events, where prayer and singing took on a new valence of defiance.

When Mr. Feucht staged a worship event on the National Mall last Sept. 11, Mr. Trump contributed a video in which he praised Mr. Feucht for “uniting citizens of all denominations and backgrounds to promote faith and freedom in America.” Even before the pandemic, he and other worship leaders were courted by Mr. Trump, who identified celebrities within the charismatic movement as natural allies.

Since the fall, rallies and protests against Covid restrictions have expanded to include other conservative causes. On the San Diego waterfront in January, local activists who opposed vaccine and mask mandates held a worship protest called “Freedom Revival,” which combined Christian music with conservative speakers and booths promoting gun ownership and ballot initiatives that opposed medical mandates.

Shaun Frederickson, one of the organizers, who has resisted the San Diego municipal government’s Covid response and called it “propaganda,” said it was wrong to understand the event simply as protesting Covid-related mandates. It was about something deeper, he said in an interview: the idea that Christian morality is the necessary foundation for governance in a free republic.

“Christians are the ones that are responsible for granting you and myself the right and authority over government,” he said. “Our motivation with the worship was to entertain people that need to be entertained, while we are going to hit them heavy with truth.”

At the revival, as worship music played gently, Mr. Frederickson, in a cardigan and cuffed skinny jeans, urged the crowd to not believe “the lie” of the separation of church and state.

Among the speakers was Heidi St. John, a home-schooling advocate running for Congress in Washington State. She praised Moses’ mother — “she did not comply!” — and exhorted people to leave their churches if their pastors were too politically “timid.”

Mr. Ahn, the pastor, who also spoke at the event, said he did not see it simply as a worship service or a political rally. “It is both,” he said. “My understanding of Jesus’ kingdom is that he is Lord, not just over the church, but every aspect of society. That means family, education, arts, entertainment, business for sure, and government.”

Worship is increasingly becoming a central feature of right-wing events not aimed at exclusively Christian audiences.

ReAwaken America events, hosted by an Oklahoma talk-show personality and entrepreneur, are touted as gatherings of “truth-seekers” who oppose pandemic precautions, believe that the 2020 election was stolen, distrust Black Lives Matter and want to explore “what really happened” on Jan. 6. Most of the events are hosted by large churches, and the primary sponsor is Charisma News, a media outlet serving charismatic Christians.

In February, a ReAwaken event at Trinity Gospel Temple in Canton, Ohio, opened with a set of worship music from Melody Noel Altavilla, a songwriter and worship leader at Influence Church in Anaheim, Calif. “Your presence fills the temple when we worship you,” Ms. Altavilla sang. The music soared in the darkened sanctuary.

In an interview, Ms. Altavilla said she was excited to be asked to perform because it was a chance to “create space for God” at a secular event.

She said she felt increasingly called to political action as part of her duty as a Christian. She recalled a biblical account in which men singing and praying went ahead of the Israelite army into battle. “Imagine if the armies in the Old Testament said, ‘No, Lord, this is too political, the worshipers can’t go out in front of the soldiers,’” she said.

Compared with 2016, Trump rallies are taking on the feel of worship events, from the stage to the audience. When Mr. Trump held his first rally of the year in Florence, Ariz., in January, he descended via helicopter into a jubilant crowd.

“I lay the key of David upon you,” Anthony Kern, a candidate for the Arizona State Senate who was photographed on the Capitol steps on Jan. 6, 2021, proclaimed to the crowd from the stage, paraphrasing a biblical passage about power given by God. “That means the governmental authority is upon you, men and women.”

Standing in the crowd, Kathy Stainbrook closed her eyes and raised her arms high in worship. She had come from Shasta County, Calif., with a group of Christian women involved in the Shasta County Freedom Coalition, a collection of right-wing groups that has included a militia, according to its website, and has supported an effort to recall a Republican county supervisor. The coalition also promotes “biblical citizenship” classes.

A friend of Ms. Stainbrook’s, Tami Jackson, who was also in the crowd, said she had come to see politics as an inherently spiritual struggle.

She said she wanted to be a part of “staking claim” to what God was doing. “This is a Jesus movement,” Ms. Jackson said. “I believe God removed Donald for a time, so the church would wake up and have confidence in itself again to take our country back.”

If Americans would repent of Covid policies and critical race theory and abortion, Ms. Stainbrook said, God would bless future generations for good. She recalled lyrics in a song by Kari Jobe, “The Blessing”: “May his favor be upon you, and a thousand generations.”

“How did Paul and Barnabas escape jail?” Ms. Stainbrook said, referring to an account in the Acts of the Apostles. “They just worshiped, and chains fell off and the doors fell open.”

Her words were drowned out by shouts of “Hallelujah” around her."
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22834
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Religion in America

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:46 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:30 am
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:42 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm Which one is from an actual Christian.....you make the call.

~ "pray that God would work in his heart so that war could be avoided at all cost."
~ "Ukraine war is testing evangelicals’ love of Putin as a conservative hero"
Actually, could have been either.
Not sure why you'd assume either was more likely.

The issue for Franklin Graham is that he hadn't bothered to offer any prayers for those who would most likely suffer...and this is, indeed, in the context of those who have thought of Putin as a "Christian"...is he, really?

Graham ain't his father...
B/c the headlines goal was to paint a negative....seems they succeeded, at least for the typical people that are looking to judge and find it.

But Graham is a son to our Father. :D
Straight question: Do you think Putin is a Christian?
No clue.
Really?
Do you think that a war criminal can be a Christian?
A follower of Jesus' teaching?
If he is born again then all sins are forgiven, so my born again friends preech.
How many born agains can Putin get? Is there a limit?
I sure hope not!
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26110
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:07 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:30 am
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:42 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm Which one is from an actual Christian.....you make the call.

~ "pray that God would work in his heart so that war could be avoided at all cost."
~ "Ukraine war is testing evangelicals’ love of Putin as a conservative hero"
Actually, could have been either.
Not sure why you'd assume either was more likely.

The issue for Franklin Graham is that he hadn't bothered to offer any prayers for those who would most likely suffer...and this is, indeed, in the context of those who have thought of Putin as a "Christian"...is he, really?

Graham ain't his father...
B/c the headlines goal was to paint a negative....seems they succeeded, at least for the typical people that are looking to judge and find it.

But Graham is a son to our Father. :D
Straight question: Do you think Putin is a Christian?
No clue.
Really?
Do you think that a war criminal can be a Christian?
A follower of Jesus' teaching?
If he is born again then all sins are forgiven, so my born again friends preech.
MD has a bat-phone to Christ.....it's why he has all the answers and considers his writings omniscient. ;)
I'm asking you what you think.
Surely you have an opinion on whether his actions conform with Christ's teaching?

Is the answer so obvious that it makes you uncomfortable?
If so, why are you uncomfortable re Putin?
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32460
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:03 am
youthathletics wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:07 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:30 am
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:42 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 2:53 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm Which one is from an actual Christian.....you make the call.

~ "pray that God would work in his heart so that war could be avoided at all cost."
~ "Ukraine war is testing evangelicals’ love of Putin as a conservative hero"
Actually, could have been either.
Not sure why you'd assume either was more likely.

The issue for Franklin Graham is that he hadn't bothered to offer any prayers for those who would most likely suffer...and this is, indeed, in the context of those who have thought of Putin as a "Christian"...is he, really?

Graham ain't his father...
B/c the headlines goal was to paint a negative....seems they succeeded, at least for the typical people that are looking to judge and find it.

But Graham is a son to our Father. :D
Straight question: Do you think Putin is a Christian?
No clue.
Really?
Do you think that a war criminal can be a Christian?
A follower of Jesus' teaching?
If he is born again then all sins are forgiven, so my born again friends preech.
MD has a bat-phone to Christ.....it's why he has all the answers and considers his writings omniscient. ;)
I'm asking you what you think.
Surely you have an opinion on whether his actions conform with Christ's teaching?

Is the answer so obvious that it makes you uncomfortable?
If so, why are you uncomfortable re Putin?
You won’t get a straight answer.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14863
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by youthathletics »

Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26110
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32460
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
Yes…you did.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 14247
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:15 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
The crusades were carried out in the name of Christ were they not? How many people were murdered by crusaders in Christs name? WWJ say about that? How many Christians have been murdered by Muslims in the name of their prophet?? IMO being a Christian has nothing to do with what you say you are but everything to do with who you are.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14863
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:15 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
You asked if Putin is a Christian....I said "No Clue". Anything beyond that is conjecture.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22834
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Religion in America

Post by Farfromgeneva »

cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:15 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
The crusades were carried out in the name of Christ were they not? How many people were murdered by crusaders in Christs name? WWJ say about that? How many Christians have been murdered by Muslims in the name of their prophet?? IMO being a Christian has nothing to do with what you say you are but everything to do with who you are.
Right the difference between actually being religious and really just being fake a** pious.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22834
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Religion in America

Post by Farfromgeneva »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:48 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:15 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
You asked if Putin is a Christian....I said "No Clue". Anything beyond that is conjecture.
It’s been an open point of information for a long time that Putin is a member of the Orthodox Church there so he puts out at least the facade of religiosity in a legally secular country. So if you now know that his claim is to be religious what would your answer to the prior questions be.

IS PUTIN A ‘REAL’ CHRISTIAN? TO UNDERSTAND THIS CONFLICT WE NEED TO ASK DIFFERENT QUESTIONS
Putin takes an "icy dip" to mark the feast of Epiphany.
Facebook428Tweet
Vladimir Putin’s campaign of violence in Ukraine has brought to the fore questions about his longstanding religious connections, prompting scholars and journalists to challenge his well-marketed piety and seemingly deep devotion to Russian Orthodox spirituality—the latter of which is often expressed in its deep ties to the post-Soviet Moscow Patriarchate. In the study of religion, it’s long been common to question whether the categories of sincere or authentic religious belief are adequate for analyzing the complex motivations and actions of adherents or believers.

When practitioners are public figures with global geopolitical aims, the classification of true religious subjectivity is often suspended in favor of assuming a kind of charlatanism, or spiritually spurious intentions built to curry favor with faith communities. Our goal here isn’t to argue about Putin’s personal faith; rather, we want to reflect on how academic assumptions about individual religious practices and beliefs are often analyzed through categories that typically begin and end with western conceptions of what counts as correct or wholehearted spirituality. In other words, we want to question the questioning of Putin’s faith.

Whether it’s religious leaders in the US calling elected officials to account for assumed incongruities between their professed religious convictions and their legislative priorities (e.g. “if Donald Trump is Christian, how can he favor locking children in cages?”), or disagreements as to whether Christian nationalist rhetoric is “really about” gender or sexuality or race, the notion that a given political actor’s religious sincerity is both discernible and relevant is hard to shake.

Presumably this is tied in with confidence that authentic or pure faith can somehow serve as a check upon nakedly political ambitions, even as scholars also caution us that treating a given religion as a sui generis phenomenon uncontaminated by political conditions is also often a form of mystification rather than clarification. Religious expression, in other words, is deeply contingent on political, cultural and material—i.e. ‘worldly’—conditions.

In the case of the current conflict between Russia and Ukraine, some writers have suggested that Putin’s latest attempt to ravage Ukraine is a holy war, and that the Russian president understands his imperialist role in global politics as almost divinely inspired or mandated. Somewhat paradoxically, however, when Putin’s individual beliefs are positioned in this public framing, he’s often pegged as religiously motivated but not a true believer; he’s seen as evil or a fraud. These incongruities harken back to how Donald Trump was assessed by scholars and the media over the last decade, and typically those writing about both politicians have not fully interrogated the psycho-social dimensions of their religiosity.

We have, it seems, become used to believing that those most adamant about the holiness of nationalist causes are, cynically, the least purely religious themselves. Perhaps this is the case with Trump, but if we opt for the bad faith actor frame immediately, as many do with Putin, we lose sight of potential contributing factors that personal faith makes to his political actions. If we don’t take seriously how religion personally relates to or contours Putin’s worldbuilding agenda, then we miss out on the historical and theological backing he uses to bolster his claims of political authority.

The case of Vladimir Putin’s relationship to post-Soviet Russian Orthodoxy illustrates both the temptation to gauge his religious actions in these terms of sincerity and authenticity—“is Putin really a believer or is he just using religious rhetoric to shore up the Church’s support of his ambitions?”—and the limits of doing so. Needless to say, no one has access to another’s inner life, and in the case of Putin he’s famously opaque as to his real driving motivations and beliefs.

Yet Putin’s supporters suggest that his public actions of piety—including shirtless dives into the blessed frigid waters during Theophany, his pilgrimages to sites such as Mt. Athos, and his purported regular confessions to a spiritual father—are indicative of a personal piety that makes him a proper political and spiritual heir to many of the Russian tsars. Through these acts of performative piety, Putin links himself theologically and politically with the power of Russian Orthodox history and its unique relationship to state, often monarchic, authority. Within sectors of the Russian church and its Western admirers, monarchs are often regarded as saints and as cosmic protectors of Christendom and its proper relationship to political authority.

Certainly, Putin’s war in Ukraine, with its indiscriminate bombing of civilian homes, hospitals, and places of worship, leads western media to speculate about how someone who actively markets himself as a Christian could approve such a catastrophic campaign. Apart from the problematic assumption that if one is authentically religious they must be good, we in turn might ask what Putin’s long history of supporting anti-human rights policies in Russia means in terms of sincere religiosity. After all, we tend to acknowledge the deep religious beliefs of American public figures, like former Vice President Mike Pence, who often support many of the same anti-human rights ideas as Putin.

Given the clash between Putin’s performative piety and prejudicial policies, it’s natural for those troubled by his actions (including the invasion of Ukraine) to contest narratives of his personal holiness in favor of a more skeptical narrative that renders his religiosity as simply a cynical ploy to dupe a longsuffering church that underwent genuine trauma under Soviet repression. Yet to do so is essentialist. It makes assumptions about personal religiosity that are unknowable, sometimes even to the believer themselves. Furthermore, using a western (passively Protestant) conceptual framework for understanding Orthodox religiosity reenergizes longstanding orientalist assumptions about the political sophistication of Christianity outside of the West.

The Western imagination is shaped by suspicion of Elmer Gantry-like appeals to religious sentiment for political gain. This, of course, takes place against the further backdrop of a largely Protestant tendency, however secularized, to measure the intensity or truthfulness of religiosity according to the sincerity of the believer. This skepticism joins a long tradition of political critique regarding religious belief and practice.

This line of critique is called into question, however, when we consider that, in the last several decades, and especially since perestroika, the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) has crafted a particularly enmeshed mix of politics, religion, imperial nostalgia, and lethal military force under the auspices of a revival of “Holy Rus,” and more disturbingly a multinational “Russian World.”

The Russian Orthodox Church, in many of its expressions, has been an active participant in Putin’s vision of global domination. Patriarch Kirill isn’t just a willing participant in the transnational expansion of Russian power, culture, and Christianity—he’s a co-conspirator in this worldbuilding project of faith and politics.

But the matter goes beyond the hierarchy proper. From priests actively blessing and supporting the development of a nuclear arsenal; to the invocation of the beloved St. Seraphim of Sarov in favor of a military deterrent “shield” around Russia’s territorial interests; to the more recent willingness on the part of the Moscow Patriarchate to cast the invasion of Ukraine in terms of a holy war against the corrupting powers of Godless Western secularism; the Russian Church has been an active participant in the construction of an apocalyptic mythos. Within this project of weaponized faith, the lines between the “religious” and the “political” are nearly impossible to discern, because in fact the categories themselves are so intertwined as to be inseparable.

The co-mingling of faith and politics, for better or worse, is part of the history of Orthodox Christianity. Byzantine Symphonia. Nationalism. Monarchy. In some respects, it’s a marriage of incongruences that has been lived out in unions of political conveniences, religious freedom, social oppression, and spiritual marginalization. We can’t understand Putin’s contemporary preoccupation with power without understanding how Russian Orthodoxy and political authority have historically developed in tension with each other—during the pre-revolutionary period, against the backdrop of the Soviet Union, and in the post-Soviet moment.

We also can’t understand this current crisis without understanding how Putin’s nationalist worldview has been shaped by Orthodoxy, a faith that has wrestled with nationalism for centuries. Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church are entangled in a theopolitical relationship of reliance and reconfiguration. To assume that either is insincere in their religious goals is to misunderstand the imperial worldbuilding project of Russian Orthodoxy more generally.

While Western commentators on the ROC should resist the temptation to exoticize it by overstating the distinctions between it and more familiar modes of Christian nationalism in the United States and Europe, the truth is that any sharp distinctions between authentic or pure faith on the one hand and cynical political manipulation on the other (or, as a corollary, between sincere religious conviction as opposed to pragmatic appropriation for political ends) betray a kind of characteristically Western Protestant prioritization of belief over action, of conviction over ritual, of pure Church over political entanglement. In the case of Russia and its ecclesial/political hierarchies, those dichotomies obscure more than they illuminate.

What’s interesting about the Russian Church and its active complicity with Putin’s agenda in Ukraine is that, in a manner perhaps akin to emerging and strengthening forms of white Christian nationalism in the United States and Europe, in order to understand what’s happening we need to get past any implied purity of religious expression, or the categories we use to describe it, in order to understand just how deeply entangled religious belief, politics, and empire are in global geopolitics.

We cannot know, finally, whether Putin is a real or sincere Christian believer, partly because categories for analyzing belief founder in the face of the complex post-Soviet Russian Orthodox experience. And while we may not be used to questions of what it means to “believe” ceasing to be academic and becoming matters of life and death, those days may be upon us.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32460
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Andersen
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:06 am

Re: Religion in America

Post by Andersen »

TLD- Evocative of the Right Reverend Lenox Thomas
jhu72
Posts: 14024
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by jhu72 »

Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26110
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:15 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
The crusades were carried out in the name of Christ were they not? How many people were murdered by crusaders in Christs name? WWJ say about that? How many Christians have been murdered by Muslims in the name of their prophet?? IMO being a Christian has nothing to do with what you say you are but everything to do with who you are.
Agreed; it ain't about what you claim, but rather whether you actually try to follow his teaching. No one reaches perfection, and indeed we all sin, but it's the effort that matters.

In my book, those who sent the crusaders, those who led the Inquisition, those who sent the 9-11 bombers...Putin...are quite definitely not following the teachings of Christ... or Mohammed...much closer to Satan...

I'll go further, in the battle between good and evil, Man is pulled in both directions, capable of following "God's" or "Satan's" call (using that paradigm)...and as "religion" and especially organized "religion" is made up of "Men", imperfect and susceptible as we are, it is fully capable of doing great evil, all while claiming to be following "God". And history is replete with such instances, just as it is full of works of great good in the name of "God".

In the most obvious such instances, in both directions, it is not really that difficult to recognize each.

And, it really should be clear to us whether it is Christ or Satan which inspires Putin, regardless of what he claims.
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 14247
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:01 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:15 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:11 am Asked and answered...I said "No Clue"
You don't know what his actions are OR you don't know what Christ's teachings are?

or both?
The crusades were carried out in the name of Christ were they not? How many people were murdered by crusaders in Christs name? WWJ say about that? How many Christians have been murdered by Muslims in the name of their prophet?? IMO being a Christian has nothing to do with what you say you are but everything to do with who you are.
Agreed; it ain't about what you claim, but rather whether you actually try to follow his teaching. No one reaches perfection, and indeed we all sin, but it's the effort that matters.

In my book, those who sent the crusaders, those who led the Inquisition, those who sent the 9-11 bombers...Putin...are quite definitely not following the teach of Christ... or Mohammed...much closer to Satan...
I could not agree more.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
jhu72
Posts: 14024
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: Religion in America

Post by jhu72 »

Putin is an evangelical. Has all the earmarks. :lol:
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
Post Reply

Return to “POLITICS”