Washington College 2024

D3 Mens Lacrosse
MVPiccoli
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:36 pm

Re: Washington College 2024

Post by MVPiccoli »

Shoregouzer58 wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 12:32 pm ShoreGouzer58 here,
Not shocked to hear about the buzzing of hair, from what I remember I think I noticed that last year.

In response to the previous few posts, it seems like the school has started to cater to non-athletes hence the Hodson Trust scholarship package being offered, and minimal attention being given to athletics. But quite frankly, the administration doesn't seem to realize that there have been fewer and fewer reasons to attend WAC since COVID. The Washington College of Old (pre-COVID maybe even) was a phenomenal experience and a ton of fun. Yet year after year we stray further from where we need to be. Sosulski needs to seriously consider the marketing of the school and figure out how to increase the student body size or else the future will get bleaker. As my man, FellowGoose, stated, Ctown isn't for everyone. Yet it can be a ton of fun, and I hope the administration can facilitate that in some way in the future. Nostrant is doing the best he can, no doubt about it.

Go Shoremen
I got a mohawk for my rookie night hair cut. It was not well received by my mother or my girlfriend. This day in age, I'd make it like a NY Yankees requirement for the players to buzz their lettuce. That means I'm officially old.

Lotta that going around, regarding the catering to non-athletes. I always talk about Cabrini, for obvious reasons, but my recruiting visit was during our Spring Fling. Cabrini has (had) a private campus, no local cops allowed. They had beer pong set up outside every house, music blaring, just a ridiculous time. Public safety let it all slide. Fast forward 10 years and the college's liability concerns changed everything. It went from being ridiculously fun to be on campus, to forcing kids to go off campus to have any fun at all. Fast forward 10 years again, and we're insolvent.
ChopMan23
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by ChopMan23 »

Any color on how Stevenson scrimmage went?
StevieUAlum
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by StevieUAlum »

ChopMan23 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:08 pm Any color on how Stevenson scrimmage went?
Hearing Stevenson won by a lot, trying to get more info ASAP!
StevieUAlum
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by StevieUAlum »

17-3 Final Mustangs.
westernbestern
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by westernbestern »

WAC got bullied by Stevenson.

Faceoffs were a huge problem. They barely had the ball in the 1st half and when they did, they threw the ball away constantly. There were a TON of unforced turnovers all over the field.

It seemed like WAC kept changing the personnel combinations too and never found any rhythm. With only 8-9 practices under their belt, they have a big week of preparation ahead of them.
Shoregouzer58
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:03 pm

Re: Washington College 2024

Post by Shoregouzer58 »

Anyone else tuning into the Eastern game? Looks like the Kib got some snow and the wind is gusting. Shore. Weather.

Shoregouzer58
ChopMan23
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by ChopMan23 »

If the coaching change happened in 2019 I don’t think we’re here sweating out a game against eastern right now.
GoTerriers8
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by GoTerriers8 »

ChopMan23 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:39 pm If the coaching change happened in 2019 I don’t think we’re here sweating out a game against eastern right now.
Yea real tough day
laxgeek37
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2022 9:08 pm

Re: Washington College 2024

Post by laxgeek37 »

GoTerriers8 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:53 pm [quote=ChopMan23 post_id=520014 time=<a href="tel:1708209590">1708209590</a> user_id=2388]
If the coaching change happened in 2019 I don’t think we’re here sweating out a game against eastern right now.
Yea real tough day
[/quote]

Tuned in for a quarter, looked like a lot of guys on the sideline compared to past few years. Was pretty tough to watch the 3rd quarter
MVPiccoli
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:36 pm

Re: Washington College 2024

Post by MVPiccoli »

ChopMan23 wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:39 pm If the coaching change happened in 2019 I don’t think we’re here sweating out a game against eastern right now.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

Notty is there. He's building. Eastern just had a coaching staff that worked like crazy to overcome two decades of poor to mediocre ball. Respect to them. Just stay patient. Enjoy watching them grow.
LaxPundit07
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by LaxPundit07 »

Notty is there. The 3/4 guys in that corner office of the LFC and the 40 guys in the locker room are the only ones that can salvage this program and its future now. The on campus stake holders for this program not only allowed its demolition but actively participated in ruining one of the sport’s great programs.

It’s about time we start by calling them out for who and what they are.

Thad Moore, athletic director, is a snake in the garden. He will throw anyone under the bus for the sake of self preservation. He is unqualified for the position he holds. He will yuck it up with the best of them with that belly laugh and million dollar Letterman smile. He spent so many years on the men’s lax sideline that he has fooled alums into thinking he is an ally and advocate for the program. He is not. He would push any of those players, coaches, alums, in front of a bus if it means keeping his job and keeping his reputation on campus. Until he goes, Notty and staff should always be looking over their shoulder.

The pathetic revolving door of administrative leadership. And the pathetic leadership of the board in selecting folks for the top chair that never see their second anniversary in charge. This school has spent 20 years trying to replace John Toll; a man revered for his academic and athletic efforts. Toll saved the school during its darkest hours and embraced the history, tradition, and excellence of the men’s lacrosse program. How hard is it to find ANY ONE, SOME ONE, that will come to this beautiful town, embrace the school, and stay longer than 18 months? My faith in the board to make important decisions for the health of the college was gone a long time ago.

Equity. I don’t mean DEI Trump MAGA buzz word type equity. I mean efforts to build up the rest of the athletic programs at the expense of men’s lacrosse. They no longer have the resources they once had. Period. And they’ve lost them at the expense of building up programs around them. Of course we want to see the department grow and be great in many sports. But tanking your marquis program in order to achieve this is pathetic. YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. Please, enough of the “the sport is growing and times are changing”. I don’t care that York is good now. That Tufts is good now. That Stevenson is good now. New kids on the block. Good for them. But how come Gettysburg, Salisbury, etc have managed to stay relevant during this growth of the sport? Are they immune? They have been power houses for decades and this growth hasn’t impacted them. It’s such a lazy narrative to peg the challenges of this program on the growth of the sport. Please.

God bless Notty, his staff, and the boys in the locker room. They are fighting the good fight and doing it without anyone (in house) in their corner.

There. I said it.
ChopMan23
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Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:35 pm

Re: Washington College 2024

Post by ChopMan23 »

LaxPundit07 wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:22 am Notty is there. The 3/4 guys in that corner office of the LFC and the 40 guys in the locker room are the only ones that can salvage this program and its future now. The on campus stake holders for this program not only allowed its demolition but actively participated in ruining one of the sport’s great programs.

It’s about time we start by calling them out for who and what they are.

Thad Moore, athletic director, is a snake in the garden. He will throw anyone under the bus for the sake of self preservation. He is unqualified for the position he holds. He will yuck it up with the best of them with that belly laugh and million dollar Letterman smile. He spent so many years on the men’s lax sideline that he has fooled alums into thinking he is an ally and advocate for the program. He is not. He would push any of those players, coaches, alums, in front of a bus if it means keeping his job and keeping his reputation on campus. Until he goes, Notty and staff should always be looking over their shoulder.

The pathetic revolving door of administrative leadership. And the pathetic leadership of the board in selecting folks for the top chair that never see their second anniversary in charge. This school has spent 20 years trying to replace John Toll; a man revered for his academic and athletic efforts. Toll saved the school during its darkest hours and embraced the history, tradition, and excellence of the men’s lacrosse program. How hard is it to find ANY ONE, SOME ONE, that will come to this beautiful town, embrace the school, and stay longer than 18 months? My faith in the board to make important decisions for the health of the college was gone a long time ago.

Equity. I don’t mean DEI Trump MAGA buzz word type equity. I mean efforts to build up the rest of the athletic programs at the expense of men’s lacrosse. They no longer have the resources they once had. Period. And they’ve lost them at the expense of building up programs around them. Of course we want to see the department grow and be great in many sports. But tanking your marquis program in order to achieve this is pathetic. YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. Please, enough of the “the sport is growing and times are changing”. I don’t care that York is good now. That Tufts is good now. That Stevenson is good now. New kids on the block. Good for them. But how come Gettysburg, Salisbury, etc have managed to stay relevant during this growth of the sport? Are they immune? They have been power houses for decades and this growth hasn’t impacted them. It’s such a lazy narrative to peg the challenges of this program on the growth of the sport. Please.

God bless Notty, his staff, and the boys in the locker room. They are fighting the good fight and doing it without anyone (in house) in their corner.

There. I said it.
Could not have said it better laxpundit. Nostrant and the boys are doing everything they can to get things right and the school is making it impossible. Us alumni want nothing more than this team and Nostrant to have success. He is doing everything the right way, this change would have really had a bigger impact if they did not wait until the ship sunk to change captains. WC won 1 game between the shortened 2020 year, and 2021. I think before COVID, the talent was always there and it was a decline each year since 2014, until things imploded. Every alumni and player wants this program to succeed but it is getting harder and harder for them to bring in talent. How can any player with the caliber of playing D1/ at york, gburg, dickinson, 'bury, even consider going to Chestertown. The school does not want any kids living off campus, and they don't give a fig about athletics. The college experience in c-town is not what it used to be, and that is a huge part of why most of these talented players go the D3 route. So how can they get the talent into C-town with all these obstructions. I love Washington College and I love Washington College lacrosse, I just cannot see how the school is appealing to talented prospects anymore. I heard they did not have 1 single sign up when Men's soccer made their NCAA run this season, was told the school could have cared left. Thad should have been gone after the 2016 season, and now he has aided in the destruction of a storied program.
MVPiccoli
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by MVPiccoli »

Thad Moore. Fox in the hen house. "Moore, who has been a certified athletic trainer since 1997, earned his B.S. in Physical Education from Salisbury in 1996"

Seems like he was handed a goon certification with that CAT.

Damning stuff. Feel for you guys.
LaxPundit07
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by LaxPundit07 »

I am prepared to reach out to Notty and discuss the construction of an NIL collective for men’s lacrosse. Any other alums on this board who are interested, please send me a direct message.

The power of an NIL collective for men’s lacrosse is that the school is not allowed to be involved and it does not have to be equitable (sorry, I am here to help out my program. The baseball alums can step up for their own program.)
FellowGoose
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by FellowGoose »

Respectfully, to all the other alums above. You guys give Nody way to much credit. I love Washington College as much as the next alum but y’all don’t know what’s been going on in that locker room since he got there. Yes, without a doubt the issues within the school don’t help. But he is not what that teams needs at all and he will not be the saving grace of the future of WACmlax
LaxPundit07
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by LaxPundit07 »

Let’s hear it then, fellow goose. Only thing we care about is this program getting back to where it belongs. If we are missing something, we need to know. Cryptic messages just make it seem like you enjoy having information the other people don’t.
Shoregouzer58
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:03 pm

Re: Washington College 2024

Post by Shoregouzer58 »

Ok Ok Ok
Tons of valid points here, some of which I agree with but others I think are baseless. But we need to talk about Jeff Shirk. The moment this program was set to decline was when the Athletic Department hired Dave Cottle to find us a coach after JB Clarke's departure, which is how we were handed Shirk. As a player during the Shirk era, there were some schemes and defenses he put in that would work once (for example 2019 Salisbury game zone) and then never work again, for years. His decision-making seemed like it came from his own game plans from previous games, regardless if they were working or not. He never found ways to win, and ultimately chose to stick with principles that were not advantageous for us, and we got worse and worse as the years went on. He was also so hard to play for. The constant berating got old and he never allowed some players to develop into the best players they could be. I could say to some degree this is probably still happening at our program, and it's sad. In terms of tactics we are years behind the teams we have to compete with in this league, and it shows with our constant mismatches in the middle of the field, inability to generate transition, suboptimal subbing, on top of typically turning numbers advantages into turnovers. I want to see these players improve, develop their IQ, and become highly competent.
Last edited by Shoregouzer58 on Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
GoTerriers8
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by GoTerriers8 »

FellowGoose wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 5:11 pm Respectfully, to all the other alums above. You guys give Nody way to much credit. I love Washington College as much as the next alum but y’all don’t know what’s been going on in that locker room since he got there. Yes, without a doubt the issues within the school don’t help. But he is not what that teams needs at all and he will not be the saving grace of the future of WACmlax
Fully agree. He was a great player, and great guy, but has not been the best coach or recruiter for this program.
LaxPundit07
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by LaxPundit07 »

Dave Cottle was brought in for an “interview” in May of 2010. Bryan Matthews had treated JB Clarke so poorly during his tenure, that he knew he needed a nationally respected coach to sniff around the job and get the word out about putting someone in that chair. (Matthew’s infamously told JB he wouldn’t stand on the tracks for him….because JB didn’t vote for Matthews son as “all conference” that year at Dickinson. When JB explained his votes, Matthews proclaimed “F*** your bull**** virtue.” In year 12, JB had his first losing season, and Matthews fired him immediately. ONE LOSING season in TWELVE YEARS. This was the beginning of the disfunction at WAC. Shirk was a finalist for the job along with Kevin Warne (now head coach at Georgetown, assistant at Harvard at the time), Stan Ross (former Butler coach and Navy assistant), and one other respected name who escapes me at the moment. Warne was the selection, but Tillman got the Maryland job simultaneously and Warne chose to leave Harvard with him and go to Maryland. As Jeff gets the job, the wheels are already in motion from the administration to push for more equity in the department, stop emphasizing lax as the marquis program, etc. WAC would go on to have SIX presidents in the next ELEVEN years. At that point, the train was already so far down the tracks, there was no stopping it. Dysfunction in the athletic department and dysfunction at the highest levels of college were rampant and lead to the demise of program. Fun fact: JB left and has won not one, not two, not three, but four National championships between Limestone and Tampa.

The list of contributors to the demise is long. Matthews, Baird Tipton, the board, etc. And I apologize for being so blunt with recent alums, but the main issue with this program is lack of talent. And the college’s efforts to stop that talent from arriving. Remember the VAST majority of alums over the age of 30 played in conference championships, final fours, and national championships. WAC’s website does a really great job of archiving info. Go to the All American list on their site. And look at the STEEP decline of AA’s post 2010. It is staggering.
veryoldgoose
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Re: Washington College 2024

Post by veryoldgoose »

LaxPundit07 wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:55 pm Dave Cottle was brought in for an “interview” in May of 2010. Bryan Matthews had treated JB Clarke so poorly during his tenure, that he knew he needed a nationally respected coach to sniff around the job and get the word out about putting someone in that chair. (Matthew’s infamously told JB he wouldn’t stand on the tracks for him….because JB didn’t vote for Matthews son as “all conference” that year at Dickinson. When JB explained his votes, Matthews proclaimed “F*** your bull**** virtue.” In year 12, JB had his first losing season, and Matthews fired him immediately. ONE LOSING season in TWELVE YEARS. This was the beginning of the disfunction at WAC. Shirk was a finalist for the job along with Kevin Warne (now head coach at Georgetown, assistant at Harvard at the time), Stan Ross (former Butler coach and Navy assistant), and one other respected name who escapes me at the moment. Warne was the selection, but Tillman got the Maryland job simultaneously and Warne chose to leave Harvard with him and go to Maryland. As Jeff gets the job, the wheels are already in motion from the administration to push for more equity in the department, stop emphasizing lax as the marquis program, etc. WAC would go on to have SIX presidents in the next ELEVEN years. At that point, the train was already so far down the tracks, there was no stopping it. Dysfunction in the athletic department and dysfunction at the highest levels of college were rampant and lead to the demise of program. Fun fact: JB left and has won not one, not two, not three, but four National championships between Limestone and Tampa.

The list of contributors to the demise is long. Matthews, Baird Tipton, the board, etc. And I apologize for being so blunt with recent alums, but the main issue with this program is lack of talent. And the college’s efforts to stop that talent from arriving. Remember the VAST majority of alums over the age of 30 played in conference championships, final fours, and national championships. WAC’s website does a really great job of archiving info. Go to the All American list on their site. And look at the STEEP decline of AA’s post 2010. It is staggering.
A lot more to discuss regarding the current situation, but some of the history in the above is incorrect. Cottle was brought to campus and didn't have any interest in actually coaching in Ctown pretty quickly, but helped in the search and put together an incredible list of finalists. As you note correctly, it was a three horse race with Shirk eventually getting the job.

On the JB point - there is much to that story you are leaving out that I am sure you are well aware of. It is not right to suggest Matthews was the sole problem in that relationship. If you were around JB and the program at the time, know you it was a two-way street with JB having a lot of blame for the issues himself. Some of it was his coaching methods were becoming too old school (sprints in the basketball gym in full sweats with the heat cranked), but most of the problems were due to personal issues. I do not want to publicly share that information - JB has been a class act since and has been great everywhere he has gone afterwards. But it is not fair to Matthews to put the full blame on him as anyone who was around at the end of JB's tenure knows.

On the broader point about college mismanagement, I wholly agree. But that is due mostly to the incredible number of college presidents since Mitchell left in 2014, which I know for a fact destabilized the athletic department (in concunction with Matthews retirement). The end all be all goal has been to increase enrollment at all costs, which has led to some really poor decisions and awful hiring at the executive level. Instead of increasing the profile of students, WAC became a begger for anyone to come, lowering quality and not offsetting costs. The future of small colleges isn't growth, as the demographics across higher education are becoming a problem across all higher education, but instead should be a focus on quality. The liberal arts schools that will survive and thrive into the 2030s, 2040s, and on are the ones that provide great educational value, the highest quality education, and great post-graduate opportunities, regardless of location. These schools are not as reliant on increasing enrollment even with the demongraphic "cliff" as it has been called because they have a strong base of applicants. For example, there is still an incredible demand for NESCAC opportunities, even when some of those schools are truly in the middle of nowhere like Bowdoin or MIddlebury. Those schools offer prestige, a fine education, and opportunities post-graduation. And many of those schools have fantastic athletic departments - Tufts of today, Middlebury/Wesleyan of the 2000s, etc. Most Centennial schools are also situated like that - Haverford and Swat for example. However, the closer WAC gets to something like McDaniel versus something like Dickinson or Gburg, the worse its going to be for WAC in the near future and long-term future. Increasing enrollment at all cost doesn't move WAC closer to a Dickinson or Gburg - only an increase in value and prestige can do that.

Ultimately, WAC really needs to be trying to position itself as providing more value and quality to survive - not flooding the school with an additional 500-1000 students. This also goes hand in hand with the athletic department. We all know D3 schools use athletics to drive enrollment, particularly male enrollment. The lacrosse team at WAC has historically provided students for the college not just from Maryland and NY, but across the U.S. and often from some of the best public and private schools in the country. I think some of this has been lost in the last few years.

I will share more thoughts on the current sitaution and team with Coach Nostrant, but I have been not impressed. He had taken over a program during a harsh time, but every college has faced the same COVID-related issues. Some new coaches in our conference have thrived in the same circumstances - looking at Gettysburg as the best example. Just because the past few years have been difficult across the board is no longer a great excuse, particularly when Toner at Gettyburg hasn't lost a step since his HOF predecessor retired.

I do think its fair to start the comparison between Nostrant's start with Shirk's start. Year one is a wash for both, can't judge either by any coach in their first year I think. In Shirk's second year, the team went 11-6, made it to the finals of the Centennial tournament, and made it to the NCAA's (with an admittedly bad loss to Goucher). Also in year three, WAC beat Salisbury and WAC again was in the CC tournament, and won NCAA games. In fact, I think WAC played that year's national champion Stevenson to its closest game in the NCAA's that year. By year four - Shirk and the team went undefeated in the Centennial regular and post season and made it to the final four. I just think its a shame Shirk and those boys didnt get their national title in 2014 - they certainly were a hell of a team to watch. We can always discuss what happened after 2014, but his first four years speak for themselves.

In comparison, year two for Coach Nostrant didn't see the team get over .500. They beat up a bunch of terrible teams early in the season, then only won 2 Centennial games and no post-season. Year three is off to a terrible start, but it is still early in the season. But I have seen nothing so far to indicate this team will reach .500 this year, let alone start getting back to the post-season. Just in comparison, the difference is striking. Certainly has time to turn it around this year, but we as alum should be honest that his tenure is not off to the start Shirk had. The answer is not an NIL collective - but really a conversation about the future of WAC, the lacrosse program, and whether we have the right coach. I know some of the other candidates from the search a few years ago and some of them are having incredible success elsewhere. Not saying they would be in a different boat from the current situation, but there are some hungry coaches out there that really wanted this job as well.

No matter what - let's go WAC. This might not be the team to turn it around, but I wish all the boys on the shore the best. Out work and out hustle everyone and good things will happen.
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