UNC v. Denver -- NCAA Quarterfinal

[Seacoaster(1)]

WHAT was that call on Denver?!?!?! BWW clearly PLOWED through the pick ... flattened the Curry with her feet set and position established ... and the ball went to UNC!?!?! WTH!?!?!

can't set a blind pick. not like bball.

Was not blind ... she was facing the player. Horrible call.

yes it was and she was not given room to move. so not horrible

At the end it seemed to me that UNC’s lack of experienced players, no one willing to step up, and poor game planning by levy/McCool doomed the heels . #14 on D a weak link all season. But overall D and goalie did their jobs . Only player willing to muscle through to score was long. Next year they get the top recruit and don’t lose any key players . In theory they should be good.

Hard to say anything really negative about the UNC defense, and I don't, respectfully, think singling out Lawton is entirely fair. UNC goalie made timely stops. Defense held a good, well-coached team with good athletes to five goals. If there is a story that is negative for UNC, it is offense and the inability to crack a very good zone. Certainly in-game coaching has something to do with that. But I tend to hand it to Denver, rather than take UNC players or staff to task. JMO.

[Madlax59]

WHAT was that call on Denver?!?!?! BWW clearly PLOWED through the pick ... flattened the Curry with her feet set and position established ... and the ball went to UNC!?!?! WTH!?!?!

can't set a blind pick. not like bball.

Was not blind ... she was facing the player. Horrible call.

yes it was and she was not given room to move. so not horrible

At the end it seemed to me that UNC’s lack of experienced players, no one willing to step up, and poor game planning by levy/McCool doomed the heels . #14 on D a weak link all season. But overall D and goalie did their jobs . Only player willing to muscle through to score was long. Next year they get the top recruit and don’t lose any key players . In theory they should be good.

Hard to say anything really negative about the UNC defense, and I don't, respectfully, think singling out Lawton is entirely fair. UNC goalie made timely stops. Defense held a good, well-coached team with good athletes to five goals. If there is a story that is negative for UNC, it is offense and the inability to crack a very good zone. Certainly in-game coaching has something to do with that. But I tend to hand it to Denver, rather than take UNC players or staff to task. JMO.

So you are then saying - you think UNC coaching staff had them prepared offensively ? I don’t think they made any in game adjustments . Move wurtz up top, move Reilly behind. Take out sconnone and put in Motice. Coaches made no in game adjustments . And their “heir apparent” didn’t take one shot. It only aggravates me because of all the hype . JMO

[Seacoaster(1)]

WHAT was that call on Denver?!?!?! BWW clearly PLOWED through the pick ... flattened the Curry with her feet set and position established ... and the ball went to UNC!?!?! WTH!?!?!

can't set a blind pick. not like bball.

Was not blind ... she was facing the player. Horrible call.

yes it was and she was not given room to move. so not horrible

At the end it seemed to me that UNC’s lack of experienced players, no one willing to step up, and poor game planning by levy/McCool doomed the heels . #14 on D a weak link all season. But overall D and goalie did their jobs . Only player willing to muscle through to score was long. Next year they get the top recruit and don’t lose any key players . In theory they should be good.

Hard to say anything really negative about the UNC defense, and I don't, respectfully, think singling out Lawton is entirely fair. UNC goalie made timely stops. Defense held a good, well-coached team with good athletes to five goals. If there is a story that is negative for UNC, it is offense and the inability to crack a very good zone. Certainly in-game coaching has something to do with that. But I tend to hand it to Denver, rather than take UNC players or staff to task. JMO.

So you are then saying - you think UNC coaching staff had them prepared offensively ? I don’t think they made any in game adjustments . Move wurtz up top, move Reilly behind. Take out sconnone and put in Motice. Coaches made no in game adjustments . And their “heir apparent” didn’t take one shot. It only aggravates me because of all the hype . JMO

Well, not exactly. Here is part of what I said:

"If there is a story that is negative for UNC, it is offense and the inability to crack a very good zone. Certainly in-game coaching has something to do with that. "

So, yes, the UNC staff gets a little of my opprobrium. If the idea was to get the Denver zone out of shape a bit, create space and shooting space opportunities, I'll say this: there was very little motion, particularly a weave from the elbows and top might've helped and was certainly worth a try. It was a little perplexing.

[user1020]

Geez. One low scoring game and the “let’s change the rules” crowd is out in force. It’s OK to have a low scoring game. Frankly it’s a hell of a lot more interesting to watch some games have defense as opposed to a 17-15 game.

I love the defensive games, they’re a pleasure to watch in my eyes and I can appreciate the beauty of good defense. These thoughts about making the game more exciting to attract viewers and wanting high scoring games is what made all 5 Tewwy finalists attackers. People need to focus on the game and let it grow naturally rather than forcing something that is not going to work. Also, I hate that all 5 finalists are attackers. How is Sam Thacker not in consideration. Over 50 GBs and CTs each on the season on a a 22-0 team that has allowed on average less than 6 goals a game and they are in the Final 4. If GBs and CTs are like an attackers assists and goals then she has over 100, and GBs and CTs are much harder to come by than goals and assists. If she had these stats for UMD she’d be the best player in the game

[Madlax59]

Geez. One low scoring game and the “let’s change the rules” crowd is out in force. It’s OK to have a low scoring game. Frankly it’s a hell of a lot more interesting to watch some games have defense as opposed to a 17-15 game.

I love the defensive games, they’re a pleasure to watch in my eyes and I can appreciate the beauty of good defense. These thoughts about making the game more exciting to attract viewers and wanting high scoring games is what made all 5 Tewwy finalists attackers. People need to focus on the game and let it grow naturally rather than forcing something that is not going to work. Also, I hate that all 5 finalists are attackers. How is Sam Thacker not in consideration. Over 50 GBs and CTs each on the season on a a 22-0 team that has allowed on average less than 6 goals a game and they are in the Final 4. If GBs and CTs are like an attackers assists and goals then she has over 100, and GBs and CTs are much harder to come by than goals and assists. If she had these stats for UMD she’d be the best player in the game

I totally agree but if the past few years has shown- they like flashy players who score . Scane fits that to a tee. They don’t care about making players around you better, riding, ground balls and D.

[Madlax59]

WHAT was that call on Denver?!?!?! BWW clearly PLOWED through the pick ... flattened the Curry with her feet set and position established ... and the ball went to UNC!?!?! WTH!?!?!

can't set a blind pick. not like bball.

Was not blind ... she was facing the player. Horrible call.

yes it was and she was not given room to move. so not horrible

At the end it seemed to me that UNC’s lack of experienced players, no one willing to step up, and poor game planning by levy/McCool doomed the heels . #14 on D a weak link all season. But overall D and goalie did their jobs . Only player willing to muscle through to score was long. Next year they get the top recruit and don’t lose any key players . In theory they should be good.

Hard to say anything really negative about the UNC defense, and I don't, respectfully, think singling out Lawton is entirely fair. UNC goalie made timely stops. Defense held a good, well-coached team with good athletes to five goals. If there is a story that is negative for UNC, it is offense and the inability to crack a very good zone. Certainly in-game coaching has something to do with that. But I tend to hand it to Denver, rather than take UNC players or staff to task. JMO.

So you are then saying - you think UNC coaching staff had them prepared offensively ? I don’t think they made any in game adjustments . Move wurtz up top, move Reilly behind. Take out sconnone and put in Motice. Coaches made no in game adjustments . And their “heir apparent” didn’t take one shot. It only aggravates me because of all the hype . JMO

Well, not exactly. Here is part of what I said:

"If there is a story that is negative for UNC, it is offense and the inability to crack a very good zone. Certainly in-game coaching has something to do with that. "

So, yes, the UNC staff gets a little of my opprobrium. If the idea was to get the Denver zone out of shape a bit, create space and shooting space opportunities, I'll say this: there was very little motion, particularly a weave from the elbows and top might've helped and was certainly worth a try. It was a little perplexing.

This may be a shocking take but Levy is not a good in-game coach. She usually relies on her asst coaches or the players to figure that out . When it all comes together like 2016 it s a good asst coach/ players or in 2022 it’s a cast of great players on O and D. This has been what I have seen and heard from players parents and coaches in unc team

[TNLAX]

WHAT was that call on Denver?!?!?! BWW clearly PLOWED through the pick ... flattened the Curry with her feet set and position established ... and the ball went to UNC!?!?! WTH!?!?!

can't set a blind pick. not like bball.

Have to disagree with you here. That was by no means a blind pick. Yes, the defender has to be able to see the pick, like you say it isn't the same rule as in basketball. But the UNC girl took 4 long strides, and put her shoulder down intentionally to plow over Curry. Very bad call by the official. The UNC player had plenty of time to see the pick and did see the pick! I would have agreed if the official had given a yellow card to the UNC player.

[Brownlax]

UNC fell completely flat in their last two offensive 2nd halves. The first was against BC in the ACC championships and the 2nd was yesterday vs. Denver. If I’m right they only had 2 shots in the 2nd half vs. Bc and only 3 yesterday. Not getting it done. I know they are young but those two halves were terrible.

[Puck Swami]

As a Denver fan, I have a number of thoughts:

1) Denver won a statement game for the ages. It was not an upset. That game should been played in Denver. Undefeated Denver held a blue blood, reigning NCAA Champion UNC scoreless for the last 35 minutes in their own stadium and proved the NCAA Committee wrong, and by extension, a lot of east coast-biased commentators wrong. The Pios clearly deserved a top 4 seed, and unless people like us make noise about such egregious seeding mistakes, the current practice of favoring teams from the ACC/Big 10 for top 4 seeds by virtue of their unique ability to get higher RPI schedules will continue. If Denver could play a higher RPI schedule, they would. You don't think Denver's Liza Kelly has been trying to schedule Carolina, Syracuse, Northwestern, Hopkins, Virginia, etc.? Come on. These teams haven't played Denver in years, decades or in some cases, ever. That's not an accident. And I'm not just speaking for Denver here. Any team that runs the table undefeated and has some evidence of beating some top level teams along the way (as Denver did with road wins vs BC and Maryland) should not have to on the road to play a four-loss team seeded above them. Change the system!

2) The scheduling system where Carolina plays 16 of 20 games in their home state and Denver has to play 12 road games in 8 states to get to the same QF is problematic. Higher RPI teams in the ACC and Big 10 get to pick and choose who they play and where in the regular season. That's a huge advantage that other schools don't get. Don't reward fortress scheduling mentalities.

3) The larger issue here is parochial, East Coast arrogance. The ESPN broadcast had a number of moments in the DU/UNC broadcast where this was brought into full, brilliant relief. One commentator made the comment to the effect of "I sorry I don't know where Denver is...I thought it was on the West coast." This is insulting. Denver is a metro of three million people with 5 major league sports teams, including the reigning NHL champion and and top 4 NBA team that could win it all this year. ESPN commentators on a national network should know where Denver is. Another moment of East Coast ignorance showed itself when one of the commentators said that DU was 'disrespected because they play Western" team's. What? A simple look at Denver's league and non-conference schedule would completely dispel that notion. That fact that ESPN commentators could be so ignorant is astounding to me...

4) Defensive games are not boring. Sure, people like scoring, but stopping people from scoring is the other half of any team sport, and when a team excels at defense, it can be a pure joy to watch. I'd way rather watch a 5-4 defensive struggle than a 24-23 no defense scorefest. Fans should appreciate both sides of the game, in all its beauty.

5) Shout out to the Denver fans who made the trip to Chapel Hill. They were often louder than the home UNC fans, at least on the broadcast.

[Brownlax]

As a Denver fan, I have a number of thoughts:

1) Denver won a statement game for the ages. It was not an upset. That game should been played in Denver. Undefeated Denver held a blue blood, reigning NCAA Champion UNC scoreless for the last 35 minutes in their own stadium and proved the NCAA Committee wrong, and by extension, a lot of east coast-biased commentators wrong. The Pios clearly deserved a top 4 seed, and unless people like us make noise about such egregious seeding mistakes, the current practice of favoring teams from the ACC/Big 10 for top 4 seeds by virtue of their unique ability to get higher RPI schedules will continue. If Denver could play a higher RPI schedule, they would. You don't think Denver's Liza Kelly has been trying to schedule Carolina, Syracuse, Northwestern, Hopkins, Virginia, etc.? Come on. These teams haven't played Denver in years, decades or in some cases, ever. That's not an accident. And I'm not just speaking for Denver here. Any team that runs the table undefeated and has some evidence of beating some top level teams along the way (as Denver did with road wins vs BC and Maryland) should not have to on the road to play a four-loss team seeded above them. Change the system!

2) The scheduling system where Carolina plays 16 of 20 games in their home state and Denver has to play 12 road games in 8 states to get to the same QF is problematic. Higher RPI teams in the ACC and Big 10 get to pick and choose who they play and where in the regular season. That's a huge advantage that other schools don't get. Don't reward fortress scheduling mentalities.

3) The larger issue here is parochial, East Coast arrogance. The ESPN broadcast had a number of moments in the DU/UNC broadcast where this was brought into full, brilliant relief. One commentator made the comment to the effect of "I sorry I don't know where Denver is...I thought it was on the West coast." This is insulting. Denver is a metro of three million people with 5 major league sports teams, including the reigning NHL champion and and top 4 NBA team that could win it all this year. ESPN commentators on a national network should know where Denver is. Another moment of East Coast ignorance showed itself when one of the commentators said that DU was 'disrespected because they play Western" team's. What? A simple look at Denver's league and non-conference schedule would completely dispel that notion. That fact that ESPN commentators could be so ignorant is astounding to me...

4) Defensive games are not boring. Sure, people like scoring, but stopping people from scoring is the other half of any team sport, and when a team excels at defense, it can be a pure joy to watch. I'd way rather watch a 5-4 defensive struggle than a 24-23 no defense scorefest. Fans should appreciate both sides of the game, in all its beauty.

5) Shout out to the Denver fans who made the trip to Chapel Hill. They were often louder than the home UNC fans, at least on the broadcast.

Congrats on the win. Denver was the better team yesterday. Now please stop your whining - it’s been non stop.

[Puck Swami]

Sorry you don't enjoy my seeding injustice entreaties, Brownlax. I will end them here.

That said, if I've learned anything in my 50+ years on this rock, it is that its the squeaky wheels are the ones that eventually get greased.

A lot of key people in the game of lacrosse do read this forum to check fan perceptions, and its important that they are reminded when they are practicing something that is bad for the game.

[laxfan22]

Denver played a great game and they are really really good. I thought they’d win and I wanted them to win. I just don’t see being up in arms being the 5 seed instead of 3 or 4. It wasn’t like Denver was seeded 9th!

[Womenslaxxfan]

If Denver is the future look of womens lacrosse, count me out. Mediocre offense. Incredible zone defense. Like a boa constrictor on the excitement of the game.
And for all of you who are in the “dont change the game to make it more appealing to the masses” camp, I think you are dead wrong. If nobody but lax alumni or dads want to watch, the game will not thrive long term.
Yesterdays game was awful to watch unless you love defensive battles. That’s a tiny minority of fans and viewers.

And as for Denver getting screwed, let’s not rehash that. 5 versus 4 is not getting “screwed”….. And Denver hasn’t gotten the short end of any stick. Most years, they split games with Stanford. Denver is NOT a dynasty that great teams are trying hard to avoid. It’s a top 30 program that, this year, has had a magical season….

[laxfan22]

I think the game is exciting enough that a very rare 5-4 game isn’t raising concerns about the game at large. The number of games with a total of 9 goals is very uncommon. It’s not a trend. It’s not the future of the sport. It’s literally 1 game.

[user1020]

Denver played a great game and they are really really good. I thought they’d win and I wanted them to win. I just don’t see being up in arms being the 5 seed instead of 3 or 4. It wasn’t like Denver was seeded 9th!

It is a big deal when Denver has to fly to the east coast. You guys on the forum told Denver to stop whining and win, which they did. Now you’re complaining about how they are standing up for their program. I have no heard any players or coaches complaining, which is how it should be. The fans on here have also not been excessive but are simply trying to show the injustice

[Puck Swami]

IDenver is NOT a dynasty that great teams are trying hard to avoid.

No one ever said or believes Denver is a dynasty. But it IS a top 30 program that a majority of dynasties/bluebloods DO avoid playing in the regular season, at home or on the road. And it is not for a lack of trying on Denver's part to schedule them.

Here are the facts: Since Denver has become an NCAA tourney regular over the last 10 years, only three of the seven blue blood programs (Northwestern, Syracuse, Boston College, North Carolina, Maryland, Notre Dame and Virginia) have even scheduled Denver in the regular season - BC (2 games - one each in '22 and '23), Maryland (1 game at Maryland this year) and Syracuse (1 game at SU in 2015). That's only four games in 10 years! No North Carolina, No Northwestern, No Notre Dame, No Virgnia. And DU has only played one blue blood at home in the last 10 years - BC once.

Lets go beyond bluebloods and look at the wider top 15 this year and when they last played Denver in the regular season:

1 Northwestern B10 Last played Denver in the regular season in 2009 at a neutral field, hasn't been to Denver since 2006 - 14 years
2 Syracuse ACC Last played Denver in the regular season in 2015 at SU, SU has never played in Denver.
3 Boston College ACC Last played Denver in the regular season in 2023 at a neutral field. Good for them!
4 North Carolina ACC Last played Denver in the regular season in 2011 - 13 years ago
5 Denver Big East Not applicable
6 James Madison AAC Last played Denver in the regular season in 2016, seven years ago
7 Florida AAC Last played Denver in the regular season in 2018 when Florida was part of Big East. Has never played at Denver non-league.
8 Loyola Maryland Patriot Last played Denver in the regular season in 2011. Has not played at Denver since 2010 - 12 years
9 Maryland B10 Last played Denver in the regular season in 2023 at Maryland, but Maryland has never played in Denver
10 Stony Brook Last played Denver in the regular season in 2019, four years ago
11 Notre Dame Last played Denver in the regular season in 2001. Has not played at Denver since 2000 - 22 years
12 UConn Big East Huskies play Denver annually as a fellow Big East member
13 Virginia ACC Has never played Denver since Denver became a D-I program in 1998 - 25 years
14 Michigan Big Ten Last played Denver in the regular season in 2023 at Denver. Good for them!
15 Penn Ivy Has never played Denver, ever - 25 years

Do you notice the pattern here?

It's pretty tough to build a top 4 RPI if the most of the top teams won't even schedule you.

[ultravisitor]

It's pretty tough to build a top 4 RPI if the most of the top teams won't even schedule you.

Okay, but here's the thing: if all of those teams were to schedule Denver, then who are they supposed to take out of their schedules and why? Should they only be playing other teams that are likely bound for the tournament? There are only so many games in a season.

[DMac]

As a coach I'd be concerned. A real homefield advantage there.
https://www.denver.org/about-denver/res ... tude-tips/

[Essexfenwick]

4 goals?

Wow.

[watcherinthewoods]

If Denver is the future look of womens lacrosse, count me out. Mediocre offense. Incredible zone defense. Like a boa constrictor on the excitement of the game.
And for all of you who are in the “dont change the game to make it more appealing to the masses” camp, I think you are dead wrong. If nobody but lax alumni or dads want to watch, the game will not thrive long term.
Yesterdays game was awful to watch unless you love defensive battles. That’s a tiny minority of fans and viewers.

And as for Denver getting screwed, let’s not rehash that. 5 versus 4 is not getting “screwed”….. And Denver hasn’t gotten the short end of any stick. Most years, they split games with Stanford. Denver is NOT a dynasty that great teams are trying hard to avoid. It’s a top 30 program that, this year, has had a magical season….

Top 30 team that has had a magical season ... agree 100%. They have not lost to Stanford since 2016. 7 seasons is Denver's longest winning streak against the Card and over the last 10 years, Denver leads 8-2.

And I admire a well-coached, disciplined team that uses the talent they have to win games. I don't think anyone is "avoiding" Denver, but it is an expensive away game for most programs. And who wants to pay all that money to go out there and take a "L"?