Israel and Zionism

[dislaxxic]

More prevaricating BULLSHIRT from our resident whatabouter. MD most certainly DID NOT say that people on the left "HATE" Israel. They disagree with policy and the methods being used to prop up rightwing Israeli attitudes about how the rightwing government in that country tries to stay in power. There are MANY examples of how their tactics are similar to nativists and nationalists in this country. Yes, there is leftwing opposition to these bullshirt Zionist policies...

But i agree that this Pittsburgh shooter needs to be publicly hung...or better...like the episode of "Black Mirror" where the perp is repeatedly put through his own virtual hell in payment for his heinous crime...

FPAATS (Fatty's Posts Are All The Same)

..

[foreverlax]

I say they circumcise him to death....

[runrussellrun]

More prevaricating BULLSHIRT from our resident whatabouter. MD most certainly DID NOT say that people on the left "HATE" Israel. They disagree with policy and the methods being used to prop up rightwing Israeli attitudes about how the rightwing government in that country tries to stay in power. There are MANY examples of how their tactics are similar to nativists and nationalists in this country. Yes, there is leftwing opposition to these bullshirt Zionist policies...

But i agree that this Pittsburgh shooter needs to be publicly hung...or better...like the episode of "Black Mirror" where the perp is repeatedly put through his own virtual hell in payment for his heinous crime...

FPAATS (Fatty's Posts Are All The Same)

..

Nope, not letting you get away with this. Burning a flag is hate. (the context of the thread ) Isn't it?

If I construe MDlax's ANTI -Israel to mean HATE-Israel. That's on me for mis-understanding. But, you should look in the mirror, and around, at what others condemn for similar. Being ANTI anything isn't considered HATE by so many, many, many?

I'm ANTI- illegal immigration......doesn't that make me a HATER of certain people? See where this is going? I am ANTI-hypocrite. Yup.....I hate them.

You like the huffpost.....think they agree with ME.....anti equals hate

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-co ... 91660.html

Also, Jill Jacobs has a good article in the WashPost, which I can't link.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/7273 ... ion-watch/ For some reason I don't remember some of our FLP friends here at this forum repudiating this action from their own people outside of their own convention. Was this Trumps fault or are some of you FLP folks just anti Israeli haters? cussing1 It would seem you democrats have more in common with this murdering SOB than you will admit... those jews are a bunch of termites are they not... that is what Louis Farrakhan refers to them as... I wonder what the good Rev F will have to say about this?? cya1 https://townhall.com/columnists/michael ... t-n2529810 Maybe this murdering SOB in Pittsburgh was also influenced by the good Rev. Farrakhan. It seems like they both have the same opinion of jews. angry5 https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

cradle,
I think you know better and are better.

There is definitely an element of the left that is "anti-Israel", "anti-Zionism", Pro-Palestinian. Quite a lot of that on college campuses. All mixed up with concern about Palestinian rights, especially in the face of an aggressive, Netanyahu gov't. Discussed that above. Not sure why you are grinding so hard on that. I don't think anyone has argued differently on these threads.

But "Farakhan"? As Trinity said "He left a note. He told us why."
This particular whack job was not of the far left, he was a creature of the hard right, white supremacist ideology.

You are truly laughable. You just argued that, YES, many on the left hate Israel. But, this loser arsewhole in Pittsburgh is different. even though he dislikes tRump, you label him a rightie? um, OK. Who about he's just a frikken scumbag that needs to be publically hung.

Also, so sick of people giving FarraCON and the NOI a pass. One of the biggest hate groups in America. Keep on yucking it up about bean pies (don't even know what that means) and last calls for final solutions. Where is that Howard U. "seminar" when we need it.

Problem with pretend progressives is they don't call out ALL the hate. What's that honey.......yes, just the hypocrites. Just them.

https://theundefeated.com/features/howa ... ee-speech/

Ooops......sorry, wrong won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyVKmUfV5WA

again ....ALL hate speech needs to be condemned.

Yeah, Mr. Kambon still very much around

https://kamaukambon.org/

but......this was so long ago. Pretends LIKED tRump and his donations money when this was filmed at Howard. U

Who has given FarraCon a pass? Other that R cubed, nobody mentions him here. C&S mentioned him tongue in cheek. NOI is probably a cult and Louis is it’s leader. Any “religion” that was created by someone a living person or their parents may have known, is likely a cult.

[runrussellrun]

And every single time I mention him.....you try to yuck it up and dismiss his open arms, seat at the table for so many politicians and business owners.

Why AM I the only one that mentions him, btw? curious that. Hate is hate, to ignore "certain" colors of hate is hypocritical, don't you think ?

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/7273 ... ion-watch/ For some reason I don't remember some of our FLP friends here at this forum repudiating this action from their own people outside of their own convention. Was this Trumps fault or are some of you FLP folks just anti Israeli haters? cussing1 It would seem you democrats have more in common with this murdering SOB than you will admit... those jews are a bunch of termites are they not... that is what Louis Farrakhan refers to them as... I wonder what the good Rev F will have to say about this?? cya1 https://townhall.com/columnists/michael ... t-n2529810 Maybe this murdering SOB in Pittsburgh was also influenced by the good Rev. Farrakhan. It seems like they both have the same opinion of jews. angry5 https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0

cradle,
I think you know better and are better.

There is definitely an element of the left that is "anti-Israel", "anti-Zionism", Pro-Palestinian. Quite a lot of that on college campuses. All mixed up with concern about Palestinian rights, especially in the face of an aggressive, Netanyahu gov't. Discussed that above. Not sure why you are grinding so hard on that. I don't think anyone has argued differently on these threads.

But "Farakhan"? As Trinity said "He left a note. He told us why."
This particular whack job was not of the far left, he was a creature of the hard right, white supremacist ideology.

You are truly laughable. You just argued that, YES, many on the left hate Israel. But, this loser arsewhole in Pittsburgh is different. even though he dislikes tRump, you label him a rightie? um, OK. Who about he's just a frikken scumbag that needs to be publically hung.

Also, so sick of people giving FarraCON and the NOI a pass. One of the biggest hate groups in America. Keep on yucking it up about bean pies (don't even know what that means) and last calls for final solutions. Where is that Howard U. "seminar" when we need it.

Problem with pretend progressives is they don't call out ALL the hate. What's that honey.......yes, just the hypocrites. Just them.

https://theundefeated.com/features/howa ... ee-speech/

Ooops......sorry, wrong won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyVKmUfV5WA

again ....ALL hate speech needs to be condemned.

Yeah, Mr. Kambon still very much around

https://kamaukambon.org/

but......this was so long ago. Pretends LIKED tRump and his donations money when this was filmed at Howard. U

Wow, Fatty, just tell us what you really think. If that's the right word for a rant.

Of course all hate speech should be condemned, and yes, there's anti-Israel 'hate' from some, not many, on the 'left'. Anti-Semitism has a very long history and a variety of permutations. And the Netanyahu gov't policies have provided a channel for such, in the guise of legitimate concerns for Palestinian suffering.

I'm not going to defend "progressives" who don't call out "hate speech" that is fundamentally anti-semitic. I do think it's legitimate to differentiate between disagreement with the current Israeli govt's policies and their impact on Palestinians and the hate-filled diatribes of others.

BTW, I've been clear about Farrakhan in specific. Terrible history of anti-semitism. But his brand of such had nothing to do with this whack job. Fellow posters are right to dismiss such suggestions as just fallacious 'whataboutism'.

This particular guy is a far right whack job, white supremacist nut. There's no need to sugar coat where this particular brand of anti-semitic hate festered, what his influences were. Plenty of evidence of where he was coming from and why he did what he did, whacko thinking that it obviously is.

As to whether he was influenced by Trump and his rhetoric, despite being angry at him for not being sufficiently anti-semitic, harder to say. If there was 'influence', it would seem to me to be primarily indirect. Trump has certainly not called for these sorts of action versus Jews. But he has demonized the "invaders" and this whacko's expressed outrage was about their support for immigrants, which he too called "invaders".

I do think that Trump's candidacy and Presidency has encouraged and emboldened the haters from the hard right to more openly and flagrantly express their anger and hate. They feel validated. I don't really think that Trump is the progenitor of this rise in anti-semitism and white supremacist, nativist hate, but he has definitely fanned its flames for political gain. To that extent, he's 'responsible'. Certainly true going forward.

But yes, the killer is the criminal. I don't happen to agree with the death penalty, but I do have the similar impulse that if there were ever instances where it would be reasonable to apply, this is one. Nevertheless, I'd prefer no death penalty, period.

[Typical Lax Dad]

And every single time I mention him.....you try to yuck it up and dismiss his open arms, seat at the table for so many politicians and business owners.

Why AM I the only one that mentions him, btw? curious that. Hate is hate, to ignore "certain" colors of hate is hypocritical, don't you think ?

Yucking up your idea that Obama’s is a sleeper member of NOI. Barry traffics in hate?

[MDlaxfan76]

More prevaricating BULLSHIRT from our resident whatabouter. MD most certainly DID NOT say that people on the left "HATE" Israel. They disagree with policy and the methods being used to prop up rightwing Israeli attitudes about how the rightwing government in that country tries to stay in power. There are MANY examples of how their tactics are similar to nativists and nationalists in this country. Yes, there is leftwing opposition to these bullshirt Zionist policies...

But i agree that this Pittsburgh shooter needs to be publicly hung...or better...like the episode of "Black Mirror" where the perp is repeatedly put through his own virtual hell in payment for his heinous crime...

FPAATS (Fatty's Posts Are All The Same)

..

Nope, not letting you get away with this. Burning a flag is hate. (the context of the thread ) Isn't it?

If I construe MDlax's ANTI -Israel to mean HATE-Israel. That's on me for mis-understanding. But, you should look in the mirror, and around, at what others condemn for similar. Being ANTI anything isn't considered HATE by so many, many, many?

I'm ANTI- illegal immigration......doesn't that make me a HATER of certain people? See where this is going? I am ANTI-hypocrite. Yup.....I hate them.

You like the huffpost.....think they agree with ME.....anti equals hate

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-co ... 91660.html

Also, Jill Jacobs has a good article in the WashPost, which I can't link.

Fatty, you continue to have an issue with Venn diagram logic.

Yes, some anti-Zionists, hate Israel, hate Jews. Some do not. Venn diagram.

Most of what we see in the American left that stands in opposition to the Netanyahu gov't, like those Jews in Israel who do so, are simply opposed to the methodologies being used ostensibly to 'protect' Israel. They reject 'the ends justify the mean's and they are concerned about the long term ramifications. They think there's a better way. It's a reasonable debate.

But yes, there are also haters. Anti-Semitic haters.

Differentiating is important. Nuance is important.

[runrussellrun]

And every single time I mention him.....you try to yuck it up and dismiss his open arms, seat at the table for so many politicians and business owners.

Why AM I the only one that mentions him, btw? curious that. Hate is hate, to ignore "certain" colors of hate is hypocritical, don't you think ?

Yucking up your idea that Obama’s is a sleeper member of NOI. Barry traffics in hate?

No more stupid than tRump is a nazi

[runrussellrun]

BTW, I've been clear about Farrakhan in specific. Terrible history of anti-semitism. But his brand of such had nothing to do with this whack job. Fellow posters are right to dismiss such suggestions as just fallacious 'whataboutism'.

Then you agree, this scumbag in pittsburgh wasn't influenced by tRump anymore than he was by the Jew hating NOI leader? Got it.

Meanwhile, did the NOI ever team up with the klan? exactly

ANd I am sick and tired for being mocked by what an entire LEGAL system is based on: whataboutism (precedence )

[MDlaxfan76]

And every single time I mention him.....you try to yuck it up and dismiss his open arms, seat at the table for so many politicians and business owners.

Why AM I the only one that mentions him, btw? curious that. Hate is hate, to ignore "certain" colors of hate is hypocritical, don't you think ?

Yucking up your idea that Obama’s is a sleeper member of NOI. Barry traffics in hate?

It's a core right wing meme.
He's an Arab, he's a Muslim, he wasn't born here, he and Michelle hate America...goes on and on and on...
golly, he met with Farrakhan and was smiling...sleeper member of NOI.

Pretty sad, but actually quite dangerous too.

[MDlaxfan76]

BTW, I've been clear about Farrakhan in specific. Terrible history of anti-semitism. But his brand of such had nothing to do with this whack job. Fellow posters are right to dismiss such suggestions as just fallacious 'whataboutism'.

Then you agree, this scumbag in pittsburgh wasn't influenced by tRump anymore than he was by the Jew hating NOI leader? Got it.

Meanwhile, did the NOI ever team up with the klan? exactly

Is that what I said?
No. Try reading again without your own 'hate' hat on.

I do think Trump's rhetoric had a possible influence and said so and why.
There's no basis to suggest that Farrakhan's brand of anti-semitism influenced him, directly or indirectly.
But I quite agree that anti-semitism in all its forms is pernicious and should be called out, regardless of whether right or left.

[Typical Lax Dad]

BTW, I've been clear about Farrakhan in specific. Terrible history of anti-semitism. But his brand of such had nothing to do with this whack job. Fellow posters are right to dismiss such suggestions as just fallacious 'whataboutism'.

Then you agree, this scumbag in pittsburgh wasn't influenced by tRump anymore than he was by the Jew hating NOI leader? Got it.

Meanwhile, did the NOI ever team up with the klan? exactly

Is that what I said?
No. Try reading again without your own 'hate' hat on.

I do think Trump's rhetoric had a possible influence and said so and why.
There's no basis to suggest that Farrakhan's brand of anti-semitism influenced him, directly or indirectly.
But I quite agree that anti-semitism in all its forms is pernicious and should be called out, regardless of whether right or left.

Absolutely.

[runrussellrun]

And every single time I mention him.....you try to yuck it up and dismiss his open arms, seat at the table for so many politicians and business owners.

Why AM I the only one that mentions him, btw? curious that. Hate is hate, to ignore "certain" colors of hate is hypocritical, don't you think ?

Yucking up your idea that Obama’s is a sleeper member of NOI. Barry traffics in hate?

It's a core right wing meme.
He's an Arab, he's a Muslim, he wasn't born here, he and Michelle hate America...goes on and on and on...
golly, he met with Farrakhan and was smiling...sleeper member of NOI.

Pretty sad, but actually quite dangerous too.

I can't help you if you can't see the hypocrisy of it all. Obama NEVER denounced rev. Wright or his churches choice for Man of the Year (Farrahcon ) until it became a political necessity. ANd sure as sun rise, the MSM shut down the narrative. "oh, this again"

You can't understand my mocking this hypocrisy of it all ? Anyone else in the history of Presidential politics start their political careers in the house of a terrorist. And, please don't tell me that section 3 of the 14th Amendment would have been a better angle to stopping his Presidency that a birth certificate. It could be argued that Obama gave "aid and comfort" to Bill Ayers. Unless, of course, you think Ayers was NOT involved in insurrection.

carry one

[runrussellrun]

BTW, I've been clear about Farrakhan in specific. Terrible history of anti-semitism. But his brand of such had nothing to do with this whack job. Fellow posters are right to dismiss such suggestions as just fallacious 'whataboutism'.

Then you agree, this scumbag in pittsburgh wasn't influenced by tRump anymore than he was by the Jew hating NOI leader? Got it.

Meanwhile, did the NOI ever team up with the klan? exactly

Is that what I said?
No. Try reading again without your own 'hate' hat on.

I do think Trump's rhetoric had a possible influence and said so and why.
There's no basis to suggest that Farrakhan's brand of anti-semitism influenced him, directly or indirectly.
But I quite agree that anti-semitism in all its forms is pernicious and should be called out, regardless of whether right or left.

So, you went out and protested when he spoke at Morgan State a few years ago? Wrote letters to the Balmore Sun? Said no no to the board of Regents and President of Morgan st.

didn't think so. Must have missed the anti-Semitic remarks by tRump that influenced this creep. Plenty from Farrakhan though. Your rightful hate for tRump is currently mismanaged. SOOOOO many other things to rail against.

[MDlaxfan76]

Another daily dose of doltisms from the wretched pile of stench.

Democrats are extremely anti-Semetic.

You do realize that when you say Democrats that means every one in the country, right?
I know, I know, you just like to come on, stir the pot, toss a little fuel on the fire,
and be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Yes Democrats are Anti-Semetic. If they weren't, they'd support Israel. They wouldn't support political candidates who want to enact Sharia Law in the US. Democrats sympathize with Islamic Terror that seeks to destroy ours and Israel's very existence. This isn't hard to understand Mr. AA. See the thread about the now, well over 600 incidents of violence brought forth by Democrats towards Republicans in the last two years.

How do you reconcile your statement with those Democrats that are Jewish?

Jews have been duped by the Democrats for years. Just like blacks. Many Jews live in NYC and it is a Dem stronghold. It is how they have been brought up. Democrats are terrible today. They are soooo far left.
How do you reconcile that many blacks and Hispanics and women are Trump supporters yet you and your kind call Trump a bigot, racist and misogynist?

When you answer my questions, I'll return the courtesy.

I answered. Jews that vote Democrat have more loyalty to the Democrat Party than their religion. Same can be said about Catholics. The Church is anti abortion yet many Catholics are Democrats, again proving they are more loyal to the Democrat Party than their religion.

Why don't Democrats support Israel? Why do they support candidates that sympathize awith Islamic terror?

All of the Jewish Democrats, that I know -

- Are Jewish before they are Democrats

- They also support Israel

- They provide ZERO support for terrorism of any variety.

To reiterate, I am not a Dem. Never have been.

… and in my experience they (American Jews) are not at all sanguine with the current Israeli government in regards to how they are dealing with the Gaza issue.

IMO, this troll's views about Jews and a Zionism and Anti-Semitism and Palestine and Islam and Catholics and...are simply willfully ignorant and hateful. But they are sadly representative of the way much of the hard right, white nationalist part of our society sees these matters.

It's accurate that many American Jews, who are also Dems, also take issue with the Netanyahu government, settlements, etc. Most are Zionist, certainly pro-Israel, though not 100%. There are definitely Jews who are not pro-Zionist. They simply see the issue differently.

There are certainly also American Jews who are both staunchly Zionist and favor the Netanyahu approach to Zionism. They tend to be GOP members, but not exclusively.

Interesting editorial in today's WSJ on Anti-Semitism. They make the accurate point that there is also an element of the left that mixes pro-Palestinian sentiments with an anti-semitic streak, as if one cannot be concerned about the plight of many Palestinians and also sympathetic to Jewish history and concerns. That has indeed taken its ugliest turn on college campuses where being anti-Israel has become popular with many, again confusing the current government's policies with Jews and Israel overall. Serious issue.

But the vast majority of anti-semitic threats and acts against synagogues has been from the hard right, and there's been a dramatic rise in such over the past few years.

The other nit I'd have with that editorial column in the WSJ was its characterization of evangelicals as among the 'staunchest supporters of Israel'. That's true, but for many evangelicals that's because they think that End Times require the Jewish state's existence in a final war with the anti-christ. Which they are eager to see happen sooner rather than later. It is a supercessionist view of Judaism, not a true respect and appreciation for either Jews or Israel, or for that matter humanity's continuance. BTW, that's not all evangelicals, for sure, but it is for a big portion and is the underlying theological basis preached in many such churches, even those who are not so eager for End Times to come anytime soon. It's still what is preached.

So, 'supporting Israel' can and does co-exist with anti-semitism and various white nationalist hate groups and ideology. These buttholes think of themselves as "Christians" but are anything but following Jesus.

I laugh everytime I hear about evangelicals being such great supporters of "the Jews". Pew Research does a Religion in America tracking study, been going on for a couple decades now. Among all religious denominations, American Jews like evangelicals least, ie., positive / negative attitude. They are viewed negatively on the whole. Atheist are viewed more positively! Conversely Evangelicals view Jews more positively than all but one Christian denomination, their own. Evangelicals are every other groups least favorite Christian denomination, at least the last time I looked at the tracking study, pre-Trump. My guess is with the advent of Trump, Evangelicals are viewed much less positively than they were pre-Trump.

To be fair, we should not label all 'evangelicals' with the same brush, as they are certainly not monolithic. As a result of the organization I've been a Trustee of, and other life experiences, I know lots of evangelicals who are much more nuanced in their theology than the angry bible-thumpers and grossly corrupt TV preachers, that are the common caricatures.

That said, with only some exceptions, evangelicals have a primarily supercessionist understanding of God. Meaning that once Jesus came and showed the Way, there was and is no other path to heaven other than by being 'saved' by accepting Christ. There is no other path, no other religious practice which has relationship to God's will. All others go to hell. Period, end of story.

And, the theology goes, there needs to be an End Times with a battle between Christ and the Anti-Christ, fought in the Middle East over the Israel. As one moves further out on the spectrum, this means that the State of Israel needs to exist, founded by Jews. This theology accepts Jews but does not accept that they have a relationship with God leading to heaven and salvation, thus must be converted. Even further out on the spectrum is blood libel (the accusation that Jews used the blood of christian children in their ceremonies) and the misreading of the Passion. That's where evangelicals overlap with the KKK, etc.

Muslims, on the other hand, make a more recent supercessionist claim which directly contends with the evangelical Christian theology of supercession relative to Judaism. Problem.

Jews are the low man on the totem pole of supercession. No surprise that they don't appreciate evangelicals and muslims who think that way. Who would?

[dislaxxic]

Supersessionist

Wow, had to look that one up. Always learning something at FL!

..

[MDlaxfan76]

BTW, I've been clear about Farrakhan in specific. Terrible history of anti-semitism. But his brand of such had nothing to do with this whack job. Fellow posters are right to dismiss such suggestions as just fallacious 'whataboutism'.

Then you agree, this scumbag in pittsburgh wasn't influenced by tRump anymore than he was by the Jew hating NOI leader? Got it.

Meanwhile, did the NOI ever team up with the klan? exactly

Is that what I said?
No. Try reading again without your own 'hate' hat on.

I do think Trump's rhetoric had a possible influence and said so and why.
There's no basis to suggest that Farrakhan's brand of anti-semitism influenced him, directly or indirectly.
But I quite agree that anti-semitism in all its forms is pernicious and should be called out, regardless of whether right or left.

So, you went out and protested when he spoke at Morgan State a few years ago? Wrote letters to the Balmore Sun? Said no no to the board of Regents and President of Morgan st.

didn't think so. Must have missed the anti-Semitic remarks by tRump that influenced this creep. Plenty from Farrakhan though. Your rightful hate for tRump is currently mismanaged. SOOOOO many other things to rail against.

I've only got one POTUS at a time to critique. Right now we have what we have.
I did my share of critiquing our former POTUS, but no, I never bought into the BS aspects of the hard right propaganda machine.

Again, read what I said about how Trump's rhetoric about "invaders" may have had an influence and how Trump's rhetoric has emboldened and inflamed the worst of the hard right. If you don't think reading and listening to a constant stream of hate from such groups has an influence on the whackos who pick up a knife or a gun or a bomb and then go and kill people or try to do so, we're in different worlds.

What our President does and says, the moral leadership he demonstrates or fails to demonstrate, all matter. Right now, Trump.

[MDlaxfan76]

Supersessionist

Wow, had to look that one up. Always learning something at FL!

..

BTW, both spellings are accepted and mean the same thing, though FL appears to prefer supersede over supercede.
The theological folks typically use a C, but apparently it's more common to use an S.

[runrussellrun]

To me, illegals ARE invaders....especially if millions come with a certain "idea" of how things should "be".....but thats another in your face secret for another thread.

What Jews are invading the US, mdlax? And, I asked for specific tRump comments that were anti-Semetic.

Meanwhile...>THIS is the real world for Israels. Maybe this scumbag just thought he was one of "tomorrow pioneers"

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... wsPioneers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wiBwQ9fiho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNE__TiMZo