Religion in America

[youthathletics]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

+1

[MDlaxfan76]

Born and raised Catholic. In high school and college a Saint Christopher were in both cleats. Going out the door, I always said an Our Father. and Hail Mary. When in Canandaigua I take my neighbor who had a stroke to mass as he cannot drive. Two weeks ago, he called and said no more mass as he did not believe in the Catholic teaching. I struggle with the same teachings but can ignore that and hope the church comes up to speed on what is going on. Holmes IMHO said it best, take care of your neighbor, the poor and be an honest and fair person. Last Man Standing starts tonight - whatever the politics it is funny to me.

I got two txt's from former teammates. Son's decided to follow in the old men footsteps. Both were headed to Baghdad yesterday morning and then our now on stand-by. Those kids, not to be a tough guy - are not trained in kiddy games - hopefully everyone sleeps well tonight.

Same to you and yours LandM.
Let's say a prayer for those young men.

The Catholic Church has a very checkered history, and currently faces some very big challenges, the most important of which I don't think will be resolved until there are women priests and married priests. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has been a very powerful force and voice for good.

My dad was raised Catholic (didn't agree with much of the strictures, for instance birth control) and effectively left the Church, joining my mom and kids in Episcopalian services, though would go occasionally to a Catholic Church on his own. My sister's husband and his family 'very Catholic', with all the positives and warts of the Irish Catholic stereotypes. He and his son went to a Jesuit school here in Baltimore, dad also went to a Jesuit college, both "Loyola".

[MDlaxfan76]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

+1

Or the analogue of 'son of god'...really the point is the humbling recognition that there is a power greater than oneself.

It's not necessary to believe such to live an ethical, moral life well, but it's a tried and true path to doing so.

[MDlaxfan76]

So here goes:

You all may know that George Conway and several other conservative, GOP Never-Trumpers have started the Lincoln Project. Today, that organization is airing a video about the evangelical right's attachment to the President. And today, Billy Graham's granddaughter endorsed the video, or at least the sentiments underlying it:

https://twitter.com/jerushahruth/status ... 6117557255

The point to me is this: politics soils religion, when religion is mixed with the crude earth and sausage-making and deals cut in the name of consensus that is politics. Trump seems to me, of course, to the be the dirtiest form of this, and the most obvious cheapening and hollowing-out of religion I've seen in my lifetime of observing the oft-crossed Rubicon of religion and politics.

Fox has published some stuff about the Lincoln Project video, saying that the organization mocks evangelicals.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/anti-t ... -church-ad

I don't think that's the Project's point, focus or intention.

It's not their "point, focus or intention"...at all.

It's to challenge the evangelical community and others of faith to see the hypocrisy in supporting Trump. They know they won't reach many, but they have a quite valid shot at the younger evangelical community as well as those who were raised evangelical but who no longer identify, in large part because they are so turned off by the rigidity of the social/political agenda of their elders.

These are life long conservatives in the Lincoln Project.

[a fan]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

+1

Every church and synagogue I've ever sat in has people there who PRECISELY use the Church as a community center. Surely you don't think all your fellow parishioners are "all in" for your Church's teachings, do you?

All are welcome, no? And everyone is taking their own path to G*d, no? And not everyone is on the path in the first place. JHU72 said "more like a community center". He didn't say get rid of G*d altogether.....

My experience, of course. Don't mean to speak for you gents in any way.

[MDlaxfan76]

So here goes:

You all may know that George Conway and several other conservative, GOP Never-Trumpers have started the Lincoln Project. Today, that organization is airing a video about the evangelical right's attachment to the President. And today, Billy Graham's granddaughter endorsed the video, or at least the sentiments underlying it:

https://twitter.com/jerushahruth/status ... 6117557255

The point to me is this: politics soils religion, when religion is mixed with the crude earth and sausage-making and deals cut in the name of consensus that is politics. Trump seems to me, of course, to the be the dirtiest form of this, and the most obvious cheapening and hollowing-out of religion I've seen in my lifetime of observing the oft-crossed Rubicon of religion and politics.

Fox has published some stuff about the Lincoln Project video, saying that the organization mocks evangelicals.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/anti-t ... -church-ad

I don't think that's the Project's point, focus or intention.

I am not sure that you don't have it backwards, … religion soils politics. In either case, the mixture causes more problems than either by themselves.

Religion has always been a participant "in the public square".
For good and for evil.

I don't think that participation inherently leads to "evil", but like any ideology, blind adherence can be manipulated by evil men to do great harm.

The way I think about it (religiously), we're all struggling between 'good' and evil', whether we call that God or Satan or whatever, we struggle. And its hard. And some, who have chosen evil, use these structures to draw others, who "know not what they do".

So, struggle.
Use all your gifts to actually think for yourself, to search your conscience, and as often as possible choose the good, reject the evil. Practice actually 'doing good' in the world.

Forgive yourself when you fall short (and ask your higher power for forgiveness) and struggle again.
And forgive others when they fall short, offer a hand to the light.

[ggait]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

Actually, an AWESOME community center with just barely enough Jesus is a winning formula in the marketplace.

On this angle, I highly recommend the Harvard B school case study on mega-churches from a few years back. It is utterly fascinating stuff -- basically applying corporate business principles (like always giving the customer what he wants), management and entrepreneurship to churches. One particularly interesting angle how famed management guru Peter Drucker intensely mentored several of the most prominent mega-church pastors, including Rick Warren (Purpose Driven Life) of Saddlebrook Church.

My small and struggling Catholic Church is located near a mushrooming mega-church. When the mega-church's former Walmart building got too small, it gobbled up the entire remaining strip mall for expansion. My kids' have attended lots of events and programs at the mega-church since many of their friends from our public school belong there. Those events are routinely fabulous. The vast array of activities and groups they have caters to every conceivable type. Young, single, recovering alcoholic? -- there's a group for you. Old and divorced -- there's a group for you too. My traditional church is like the little local hardware store trying to stay in business after Home Depot opens up next door. No contest.

Here's a taste of the model:

And in business, the customer is king. The heart of the “seeker-sensitive” church franchise method is to offer the religious customer just enough Christianity to attract him and keep him once he has made a commitment, but not so much Christianity that he is repelled by difficult or upsetting doctrines. Purpose-driven churches rarely mention sin, damnation, or the need for man to repent and have faith in Christ.

Instead, these churches keep their parishioners / customers satisfied by offering a myriad of programs and activities and by creating worship services based on principles of entertainment rather than theology. They have created a massively popular pseudo-Christian religious product, with just enough Christianity to win the approval of all but the most discerning Christians.

[Matnum PI]

I see religious communities and the people within them much as i see the film industry. At any film, there are cinephiles and movie lovers. The cinephiles love films, know a director's body of work, appreciate screenplays, recognize an actors work from the current film to decades before, etc. Movie lovers like the whole movie experience from the films to the popcorn and Milk Duds to the fact that going to a film is an event etc. (There's a third entity which are the people who are friends with cinephiles/movie lovers but this is less interesting.) For the cinephiles, metaphorically, the G-d part is important, the texts are important, silence and seriousness during the prayer is important, etc. For movie lovers, they live for the blockbuster films. They don't want to watch a film actively in order to appreciate the work that was created. They want to watch the film passively and just be entertained. I think these are the people going to megachurches. and that's where the money is at...

[Typical Lax Dad]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

Actually, an AWESOME community center with just barely enough Jesus is a winning formula in the marketplace.

On this angle, I highly recommend the Harvard B school case study on mega-churches from a few years back. It is utterly fascinating stuff -- basically applying corporate business principles (like always giving the customer what he wants), management and entrepreneurship to churches. One particularly interesting angle how famed management guru Peter Drucker intensely mentored several of the most prominent mega-church pastors, including Rick Warren (Purpose Driven Life) of Saddlebrook Church.

My small and struggling Catholic Church is located near a mushrooming mega-church. When the mega-church's former Walmart building got too small, it gobbled up the entire remaining strip mall for expansion. My kids' have attended lots of events and programs at the mega-church since many of their friends from our public school belong there. Those events are routinely fabulous. The vast array of activities and groups they have caters to every conceivable type. Young, single, recovering alcoholic? -- there's a group for you. Old and divorced -- there's a group for you too. My traditional church is like the little local hardware store trying to stay in business after Home Depot opens up next door. No contest.

Here's a taste of the model:

And in business, the customer is king. The heart of the “seeker-sensitive” church franchise method is to offer the religious customer just enough Christianity to attract him and keep him once he has made a commitment, but not so much Christianity that he is repelled by difficult or upsetting doctrines. Purpose-driven churches rarely mention sin, damnation, or the need for man to repent and have faith in Christ.

Instead, these churches keep their parishioners / customers satisfied by offering a myriad of programs and activities and by creating worship services based on principles of entertainment rather than theology. They have created a massively popular pseudo-Christian religious product, with just enough Christianity to win the approval of all but the most discerning Christians.

We have a small church in town....., Just put in a 2,500 seat auditorium. That’s a lot of seats. It’s like a community center. Big production studio too.... processes 4,000 attendees each weekend. Non denominational church.

[Brooklyn]

All too often religion is just the opiate of the masses as one well known character said many moons ago.

https://giphy.com/gifs/maudit-maudit-he ... fullscreen


"Christians" such as Queen Victoria and King Leopold invade the Indian subcontinent and the Congo, kill millions of people, exploit the lands, steal endless amounts of capital, and enslave people in the name of Christianity. Hitler kill millions of Jews while proclaiming himself a good Catholic and doing his evil work in the name of Christianity, Stalin murders millions of his own people and gets a Christian burial, and millions of Native Americans gets butchered in the name of Christianity as well. Even in recent years traitor Bush attempted to justify his wicked war on Iraq by calling it a crusade (this term is considered quite offensive in the Middle East). As Alan Watts said many years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in human history.

Sadly, there will never be any meaningful peace in this world until religion is reformed - altered into a form that promotes peace and reconciliation among all peoples. Since Christianity is the religion which causes the most war, imperialism, international deaths, and exploitation, it should take the lead in bringing about these needed changes. Upon doing so, it is likely that other religions will follow its example.

[Bart]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

+1

Every church and synagogue I've ever sat in has people there who PRECISELY use the Church as a community center. Surely you don't think all your fellow parishioners are "all in" for your Church's teachings, do you?

All are welcome, no? And everyone is taking their own path to G*d, no? And not everyone is on the path in the first place. JHU72 said "more like a community center". He didn't say get rid of G*d altogether.....

My experience, of course. Don't mean to speak for you gents in any way.

Ok, good points. But I think we may be talking semantics, perhaps not. For me, and I am only talking about me here , the notion of faith requires the belief in some type of god. For me, raised a roman catholic that is that JC is the son of god. I welcome anyone who wants to sit and listen or participate in any manner but to be part of the "faith" you have to believe. I do struggle with this.

I would not for an instant say that every parishioner is "all in" for all the teachings as I am certainly not, yes I know bad catholic . To me faith, religion, worship or what ever you want to call it is a extremely personal thing. The only two people involved are myself and God. It is my belief that you can believe, not believe, believe in some parts and not others but that is between you and god or the flying spaghetti monster or no one at all. It is all very personal to me.

I guess the reason I responded to the original post is that for me JC was both a philosopher and the son of god. For me faith emphasizes Jesus as the son of god and not so much the philosopher. The use of the church/synagogue as a community center is part of what the religious experience is but is separate from faith. Again, in my feeble mind.

[Matnum PI]

Bart, agreed. And you're far from alone. Lots of people go to church explicitly for the G-d part. You can strip away the metaphorical lounge seats, popcorn, milk duds, and the thronging masses and... They would still come. Matter of fact, all of the above are more distractions than reasons to come to church. But the masses come for the lounge seats, popcorn, etc. And once you're coming for recline-able seats and comfort foods, what's the difference between being a big fan of this church and being a big fan of the UVA Cavaliers. Again, there are exceptions. There are innumerable people of faith, believers, etc. But I think most religions are not religions. They're something else. e.g. Brooklyn's examples of Christians leading imperialistic adventures, etc., I do not see these people as Christians.

[MDlaxfan76]

All too often religion is just the opiate of the masses as one well known character said many moons ago.

https://giphy.com/gifs/maudit-maudit-he ... fullscreen


"Christians" such as Queen Victoria and King Leopold invade the Indian subcontinent and the Congo, kill millions of people, exploit the lands, steal endless amounts of capital, and enslave people in the name of Christianity. Hitler kill millions of Jews while proclaiming himself a good Catholic and doing his evil work in the name of Christianity, Stalin murders millions of his own people and gets a Christian burial, and millions of Native Americans gets butchered in the name of Christianity as well. Even in recent years traitor Bush attempted to justify his wicked war on Iraq by calling it a crusade (this term is considered quite offensive in the Middle East). As Alan Watts said many years ago, more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in human history.

Sadly, there will never be any meaningful peace in this world until religion is reformed - altered into a form that promotes peace and reconciliation among all peoples. Since Christianity is the religion which causes the most war, imperialism, international deaths, and exploitation, it should take the lead in bringing about these needed changes. Upon doing so, it is likely that other religions will follow its example.

Much of your general theme is correct, though I'd have some nits with some specifics. And your overall conclusion that "Christianity is the religion which causes the most war, imperialism, international deaths, and exploitation" is quite arguable.

For instance, though Hitler was born Catholic he was quite virulently anti-Catholic as an adult. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... olf_Hitler

But sure, great evil has been done in the name of Christ.
I'm also all-in for Christians taking a positive leadership role in the sort of reforms I think you are suggesting.
It's why I'm involved with The Institute for Islamic Christian Jewish Studies www.icjs.org

[Brooklyn]

Much of your general theme is correct, though I'd have some nits with some specifics. And your overall conclusion that "Christianity is the religion which causes the most war, imperialism, international deaths, and exploitation" is quite arguable.

For instance, though Hitler was born Catholic he was quite virulently anti-Catholic as an adult. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... olf_Hitler

But sure, great evil has been done in the name of Christ.
I'm also all-in for Christians taking a positive leadership role in the sort of reforms I think you are suggesting.
It's why I'm involved with The Institute for Islamic Christian Jewish Studies www.icjs.org

arguable

The historical record clearly shows it was Christianity that invaded and butchered multiple millions throughout the Third World in the modern era. By contrast, there is nothing in the historical record which shows Third World paganism doing the same to the Christian West.


anti-Catholic

Hitler found the church to be quite useful: https://tinyurl.com/usf5gtj


While I may disagree with some of your conclusions, kudos to you and others for seeking positive reforms.

[jhu72]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

As an atheist, that works for me just fine. The fastest growing religion in the US is "uncommitted" (see Pew Research "Religion in America" tracking study - quoted many times by a number of us). "Uncommitted" includes atheist, agnostics and those who answer the "what church do you belong to?" question as "none". This has been going on for decades, it is not new.

The entire question of religious "faith" is becoming less and less relevant to Americans. This is a personal decision, choice. I have faith in lots of things but feel no need for faith in something that cannot be measured (god) and certainly anything that "requires" faith of its adherents to achieve some unproven reward.

As pointed out by ggait, the "community center" approach is good business. The "marketing study" (Pew Research tracking study) tells us people want something in their lives that make them feel good, give them hope. Other people, a sense of belonging, a sense of "goodness" in their lives and the world. People are not crying out for more dogma!

While this discussion is confined to "America", the data worldwide seems to indicate that the same thing is going on worldwide, where people are free.

[jhu72]

Much of your general theme is correct, though I'd have some nits with some specifics. And your overall conclusion that "Christianity is the religion which causes the most war, imperialism, international deaths, and exploitation" is quite arguable.

For instance, though Hitler was born Catholic he was quite virulently anti-Catholic as an adult. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... olf_Hitler

But sure, great evil has been done in the name of Christ.
I'm also all-in for Christians taking a positive leadership role in the sort of reforms I think you are suggesting.
It's why I'm involved with The Institute for Islamic Christian Jewish Studies www.icjs.org

arguable

The historical record clearly shows it was Christianity that invaded and butchered multiple millions throughout the Third World in the modern era. By contrast, there is nothing in the historical record which shows Third World paganism doing the same to the Christian West.


anti-Catholic

Hitler found the church to be quite useful: https://tinyurl.com/usf5gtj


While I may disagree with some of your conclusions, kudos to you and others for seeking positive reforms.

No question lots of bad over the centuries is the result of religious adherents. But by the same token lots of good has been the result of religious adherents. I would argue, most of that good is the result of the "community center" feature/function of religion. The faith component has also contributed some good, but I believe is largely responsible for most of the bad.

Don't want to speak for MDLax, but I suspect this realization is why he feels it is so important to contribute to the effort to increase interfaith understanding.

[Brooklyn]

No question lots of bad over the centuries is the result of religious adherents. But by the same token lots of good has been the result of religious adherents. I would argue, most of that good is the result of the "community center" feature/function of religion. The faith component has also contributed some good, but I believe is largely responsible for most of the bad.

Don't want to speak for MDLax, but I suspect this realization is why he feels it is so important to contribute to the effort to increase interfaith understanding.

Over the years, I have posted on websites controlled by right wing television evangelist types and have advised them to join with the commendable efforts of the ICJS and similar institutions in order to comply with the true teachings of the Bible and other canonical writings. As usual, the moment I or anyone else does so, we get banned from those sites. While I continue to applaud the honorable efforts of institutions such ICJS and its subscribers, much of their efforts will be in vain unless and until ultra right evangelical types see the true Light and conform to the actual teachings of those canonical writings.

[jhu72]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

+1

Every church and synagogue I've ever sat in has people there who PRECISELY use the Church as a community center. Surely you don't think all your fellow parishioners are "all in" for your Church's teachings, do you?

All are welcome, no? And everyone is taking their own path to G*d, no? And not everyone is on the path in the first place. JHU72 said "more like a community center". He didn't say get rid of G*d altogether.....

My experience, of course. Don't mean to speak for you gents in any way.

I am certainly not saying get rid of god altogether. That is a personal choice. There are people who are made comfortable by the feeling / belief in a supreme being. If that helps get you through the night or life, no problem. But there are people who have no such need, and people who have a need who believe differently in the details and even some people who do not have a need, but believe in some god for some reason not understandable by others. Vive la difference. The problems only occur when their is a lack of understanding and acceptance of that diversity.

[jhu72]

No question lots of bad over the centuries is the result of religious adherents. But by the same token lots of good has been the result of religious adherents. I would argue, most of that good is the result of the "community center" feature/function of religion. The faith component has also contributed some good, but I believe is largely responsible for most of the bad.

Don't want to speak for MDLax, but I suspect this realization is why he feels it is so important to contribute to the effort to increase interfaith understanding.

Over the years, I have posted on websites controlled by right wing television evangelist types and have advised them to join with the commendable efforts of the ICJS and similar institutions in order to comply with the true teachings of the Bible and other canonical writings. As usual, the moment I or anyone else does so, we get banned from those sites. While I continue to applaud the honorable efforts of institutions such ICJS and its subscribers, much of their efforts will be in vain unless and until ultra right evangelical types see the true Light and conform to the actual teachings of those canonical writings.

IMO the evangelicals (especially Southern Baptists) have been and are a special problem in the US. This predates Trump although he clearly understood the opportunity for the scam he is running.

[Bart]

Frankly I think churches would do a lot better if they behaved more like community centers and emphasized Jesus the philosopher and gave up on the son of god angle and all the dogma. The world would be a lot better for it.

But isn't that the deal with faith? With out the son of god angle you are just a community center.......are you not?

+1

Every church and synagogue I've ever sat in has people there who PRECISELY use the Church as a community center. Surely you don't think all your fellow parishioners are "all in" for your Church's teachings, do you?

All are welcome, no? And everyone is taking their own path to G*d, no? And not everyone is on the path in the first place. JHU72 said "more like a community center". He didn't say get rid of G*d altogether.....

My experience, of course. Don't mean to speak for you gents in any way.

I am certainly not saying get rid of god altogether. That is a personal choice. There are people who are made comfortable by the feeling / belief in a supreme being. If that helps get you through the night or life, no problem. But there are people who have no such need, and people who have a need who believe differently in the details and even some people who do not have a need, but believe in some god for some reason not understandable by others. Vive la difference. The problems only occur when their is a lack of understanding and acceptance of that diversity.

I agree with you. It is a personal experience. I would hope that understanding of diversity moves in both directions.