Yale 2020

[wahoomurf]

Historically I think only JHU pulled off a bigger transfer duo and they did it in the same year I think. Bob DeSimone and Brendan Schneck from Navy

Gagliardi transferred to JHU from UVA a few years ago. Academics were NOT the reason for his transfer.NUFF SAID,

[thetruth]

you just about indicate that Shay can get any player he wants into Yale Lacrosse.

Yes, if Shay really likes them enough and they have an AI of 176 or better which equates to about a 2.8 GPA and a 24 ACT (per an online AI calculator). He can't take too many of those because he needs to keep his team AI average higher than that but if he really wants a kid at that level he'll make it happen. Transfers provide him with an additional avenue to recruit lower AI athletes that schools like Harvard and Princeton don't utilize for lacrosse. Shay has rallied incredible donor support over the years (thank you Joe Tsai and others) which has helped drive incredible support from admissions when it comes to AI thresholds and roster composition for Yale men's lacrosse. It's the way it works in the Ivies, but it doesn't last forever. Just ask Bill Tierney.

however, I guarantee that almost every player was a top 10% student at their high or prep school

I can not only guarantee this is wrong, but I know it is wrong. And I'd say the same thing about every Ivy.

So, Shay is playing a team of high over-achievers as students and athletes. To say otherwise, is disrespectful and implies shortcuts that don't exist.

Again, why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said any of these kids weren't over-achievers or that they somehow took shortcuts while at Yale. I simply said the team isn't made up of high school valedictorians and it isn't. It's a team of really good lacrosse players who work really hard to improve as a team on a daily basis and their results on the field speak for themselves. I have no idea how they do in the classroom, but as pointed out by an earlier poster, the fact that Yale doesn't have one selection to the 2019 NEILA All-Academic team is telling.

[Typical Lax Dad]

FannOLax, those three and others I know performed very well. Some of those guys are just embarking on their graduate careers. I am also aware of achievements 3-5 years after they graduate. I think there was also another 2019 player who majored in Molecular, Cellular, Developmental Biology. LOL, I hardly know what it is.

By the way, yes, well-earned congratulations to the seven Brown student-athletes.

Molecular Cellular Developmental Biology sounds harder than it is.... I was at the thesis defense for a PhD candidate seeking a degree in the field 28 years ago and have been around the field since then..... (I am half joking about it sounding harder than it is. )

Levings was an Organic Chemistry major. That guy was smart on top of smart. Would love to know what he is doing..., so was Ben, so was Tyler and virtually everyone else on the team. Those old Yale teams was a bunch of rag tag over achieving guys that were easy to root for. Different type of recruit come in now. Coach Shay gets to pick off the top now.

[Mid-Lax]

thetruth, lets just agree to disagree or we will be going back and forth on the statement you made which I have issues with and you disagree with my view of its implications. For the record, I also disagree with your rebuttals.

[OCanada]

Wahoo. I don’t think 20 years ago qualifies as a “few years ago”. Glass houses

[FannOLax]

Okay, Fairfield has formally announced Baxter, as reflected in this article: https://www.uslaxmagazine.com/college/m ... s-lacrosse

And here's the Fairfield web site: https://fairfieldstags.com/news/2019/6/ ... rosse.aspx

Congratulations Coach Baxter.

For Yale, a forced opportunity to make a change, and hopefully improve the defense, an area that has traditionally been a strength for the Bulldogs, but this past season left a few things to be desired. Let's see how this plays out for Shay and his staff.

[MDlaxfan76]

you just about indicate that Shay can get any player he wants into Yale Lacrosse.

Yes, if Shay really likes them enough and they have an AI of 176 or better which equates to about a 2.8 GPA and a 24 ACT (per an online AI calculator). He can't take too many of those because he needs to keep his team AI average higher than that but if he really wants a kid at that level he'll make it happen. Transfers provide him with an additional avenue to recruit lower AI athletes that schools like Harvard and Princeton don't utilize for lacrosse. Shay has rallied incredible donor support over the years (thank you Joe Tsai and others) which has helped drive incredible support from admissions when it comes to AI thresholds and roster composition for Yale men's lacrosse. It's the way it works in the Ivies, but it doesn't last forever. Just ask Bill Tierney.

however, I guarantee that almost every player was a top 10% student at their high or prep school

I can not only guarantee this is wrong, but I know it is wrong. And I'd say the same thing about every Ivy.

So, Shay is playing a team of high over-achievers as students and athletes. To say otherwise, is disrespectful and implies shortcuts that don't exist.

Again, why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said any of these kids weren't over-achievers or that they somehow took shortcuts while at Yale. I simply said the team isn't made up of high school valedictorians and it isn't. It's a team of really good lacrosse players who work really hard to improve as a team on a daily basis and their results on the field speak for themselves. I have no idea how they do in the classroom, but as pointed out by an earlier poster, the fact that Yale doesn't have one selection to the 2019 NEILA All-Academic team is telling.

+1

Sometimes we get caught up in making the point that, relative to most D1 lax programs, the Ivies do have processes that ensure that the team is made up of student-athletes with higher proven academic potential, on average, than non-Ivy programs.

And we, rightfully IMO, celebrate the individuals who tackle particularly demanding academic programs and excel in them while also excelling in their sport. We hold them up as exemplars to which others can aspire to emulate. And most Ivy coaches support those aspirations in ways many D1 programs may not.

But the reality is that each team is made up of individuals with a dispersion of both academic talent and academic commitment. Most lax athletes at any Ivy are certainly not HS valedictorians, nor top 10% from their HS (especially the most challenging high schools). Some, but not most. Which is not to demean their overall efforts, character and potential in life. Just as we wouldn't demean those student-athletes at other schools.

And I think it's important to recognize that while it's possible to slide through an academic program at an Ivy these days (easier years ago), as long as one is pretty darn smart, for those with lower AI's it takes very serious academic effort just to survive (achieve Cs and B's). There's no special tutoring for athletes, no shortcuts, and there isn't a culture in the professor corps to cut athletes any slack. If anything, the opposite. Those athletes who choose to make that effort, and most do, indeed tend to be over-achievers in life.

That all said, from everything I've heard, the Yale program is indeed benefitting from an aura, much like Tierney was able to achieve at PU, that allows for more latitude with Admissions for lax slots, including an openness to transfers. Money definitely does influence that but also the earned reputation of not being mess-ups (I used another word but the system auto-corrected ) in the classroom or elsewhere off the field, while achieving at a very high level on field.

There's a virtuous cycle right now, but indeed it can change.

[Mid-Lax]

MDLaxfan76, an 'aura' yes, and well-earned. Does it allow Shay to get anyone he wants? No. As stated, the Ivy index over his ~10 slots has to be managed. As for the players, knowing many of them, I don't see many passengers in the team as most do play at some point of their maturing careers (goalie being the exception).

Seperately, congratulations to Coach Baxter. Coach Shay and the players will really miss him.

[JAFO]

If you are going to use a screen name like "the Truth" you should have some idea of what you are talking about.

The floor for AI is 183.
I heard Shay say that Yale's current AI is 220. Most of the rest of the league is at or below 200.
Yale does not have one player below 200.

Scholar All Americans will be coming out soon. I guarantee that Yale will have multiple players on that list.

Coach Shay recruits guys who are the hardest working both in and out of the classroom. You make bogus claims about good kids and try to pass it off as fact. You assume that there must be some flaw with these kids - if they are great lacrosse players they can't be great students. You have no fact to back it up. Either you are a trolling or you should just be ashamed of yourself.

[QuakerSouth]

If you are going to use a screen name like "the Truth" you should have some idea of what you are talking about.

The floor for AI is 183.
I heard Shay say that Yale's current AI is 220. Most of the rest of the league is at or below 200.
Yale does not have one player below 200.

Scholar All Americans will be coming out soon. I guarantee that Yale will have multiple players on that list.

Coach Shay recruits guys who are the hardest working both in and out of the classroom. You make bogus claims about good kids and try to pass it off as fact. You assume that there must be some flaw with these kids - if they are great lacrosse players they can't be great students. You have no fact to back it up. Either you are a trolling or you should just be ashamed of yourself.

Could not have said it better myself! This guy is getting tiresome.

I have first hand knowledge of AIs and recruiting with kids at multiple Ivies (including Yale), and even I don't know all the ins and outs. This guy makes himself sound as if he knows everything...and well, he just doesn't.

I've already stopped engaging with his posts as he is a know-it-all, AND in his own back-handed way, bashes players. Any athlete at these top schools works their arse off, and doesn't deserve to have their bona fides questioned by some anonymous poster on a forum.

Athletes at Yale compete everyday in their practices, and then have to compete against the best and brightest everyday in the classroom. They get no mental breaks. If the coaches and Admissions didn't think a particular student-athlete could handle it, they would not admit them. Lets keep all the GPA, ACT, AI drill-downs to the coaches and admin. They have experience with it.

These kids work hard on the field and in the classroom. Lets enjoy their athleticism for what it is, and lets trust that they made the best 40-year decision that they could make.

A Quaker, but with a certain "carve-out" for Yale...

[wahoomurf]

Wahoo. I don’t think 20 years ago qualifies as a “few years ago”. Glass houses

[admin]

Yale-commit is the 2019 Washington Post Player of the Year.
http://fanlax.com/fanlax/2019/06/11/hs- ... -met-team/

[pcowlax]

Quick, someone check his AI!

[thetruth]

The floor for AI is 183.

Was 176 the multiple times I had to deal with it and 171 before that. I'll take your word for it that its 183 now which is a 2.9 GPA and a 25 ACT.

I heard Shay say that Yale's current AI is 220. Most of the rest of the league is at or below 200.

That 220 is the estimated average for ALL of Yale's undergraduates, not it's men's lacrosse roster. Average AI for the entire undergrad population at Harvard, Princeton and Yale are all estimated at 220 while Dartmouth, Brown and Penn are all estimated at 216 and Cornell and Columbia are estimated at 210. I can assure you there isn't a Div-I men's lacrosse team in the country that has an average AI of 220.
https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_co ... ksheet.pdf

Yale does not have one player below 200.

I'll assume you work in admissions at Yale since no one else could possibly know that for certain. If you don't then I doubt you are correct. Nonetheless, a 200 AI is a 3.3 GPA and a 28 ACT or a 3.0 GPA and a 29 ACT. Contrary to Mid-Lax's claims that's not in the top half of most highly competitive prep school classes let alone the top 10% and probably not in the top 10% of any public high school class in a lacrosse hotbed.

You assume that there must be some flaw with these kids - if they are great lacrosse players they can't be great students.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I've said multiple times these kids are studs and that they work their butts off. I simply said the team isn't made up of valedictorians because it isn't. No Ivy lacrosse team is. You are delusional if you think otherwise. Clearly they are all good enough students to do the work and graduate from an Ivy so they're far from being "dumb jocks" and some are truly excellent students. My point is that Shay has and has earned tremendous support from admissions. There's no way to win in the Ivies if you don't. It's not a secret.

[Ox77]

The floor for AI is 183.

Was 176 the multiple times I had to deal with it and 171 before that. I'll take your word for it that its 183 now which is a 2.9 GPA and a 25 ACT.

I heard Shay say that Yale's current AI is 220. Most of the rest of the league is at or below 200.

That 220 is the estimated average for ALL of Yale's undergraduates, not it's men's lacrosse roster. Average AI for the entire undergrad population at Harvard, Princeton and Yale are all estimated at 220 while Dartmouth, Brown and Penn are all estimated at 216 and Cornell and Columbia are estimated at 210. I can assure you there isn't a Div-I men's lacrosse team in the country that has an average AI of 220.
https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_co ... ksheet.pdf

Yale does not have one player below 200.

I'll assume you work in admissions at Yale since no one else could possibly know that for certain. If you don't then I doubt you are correct. Nonetheless, a 200 AI is a 3.3 GPA and a 28 ACT or a 3.0 GPA and a 29 ACT. Contrary to Mid-Lax's claims that's not in the top half of most highly competitive prep school classes let alone the top 10% and probably not in the top 10% of any public high school class in a lacrosse hotbed.

You assume that there must be some flaw with these kids - if they are great lacrosse players they can't be great students.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I've said multiple times these kids are studs and that they work their butts off. I simply said the team isn't made up of valedictorians because it isn't. No Ivy lacrosse team is. You are delusional if you think otherwise. Clearly they are all good enough students to do the work and graduate from an Ivy so they're far from being "dumb jocks" and some are truly excellent students. My point is that Shay has and has earned tremendous support from admissions. There's no way to win in the Ivies if you don't. It's not a secret.

Current (2019) Yale men’s lacrosse team GPA is 3.42 with 25 players above 3.5. Also Shay mentioned this year’s class of first years (22 grads) was highest AI ever. So I think they’re holding up the academic side of things.

[calourie]

Congratulations and good luck to coach Baxter on his hiring as head coach at Fairfield, and thanks for all he contributed over the past 6 years in helping to elevate the Yale program to where it finds itself now. I imagine we will see the Stags back on the Yale schedule sooner rather than later, though that hasn't been the case with BU once Polley got hired away. There was a fall scrimmage or two two against the Terriers in the interim if my memory serves me correctly. On a side note it was pointed out on championship weekend that Matt Brandau was indeed valedictorian at Boys Latin last year, so Yale has at least one valedictorian that we know of.

[faircornell]

There are some parallels between Yale's program today and Cornell in the 1970's:

1. Recruiting: Yale is currently at the top of the Ivy "food chain" in recruiting by any measure. If you combine the prestige of the degree, the opportunity to play for an NC caliber team, and a stable head coaching situation, the supply of "Ivy Eligible" lacrosse players must be drawn to Yale. As a contrasting example of this "equation" is my class at Cornell, there were a number of players who turned down Yale for Cornell, despite Yale having the "better" degree.

2. Amazing People: While I don't know any of the current Yale players, my own experience was that the types of people who can both handle the stresses of an NCAA Championship team and tough academics are extremely impressive, and tend to go on to do some remarkable things in life after college. While there are not a lot of such people out there, Yale seems to be attracting them.

3. Academics: The high GPA is likely the result of a team culture of encouraging study. The most notable Cornell example that I can provide for this is the 2013 Cornell Final Four team that had 5 Academic All Americans.

4. Administration Support: Cornell in the 1970's had strong support from the Administration. I have seen the Yale President speak about athletics, and there seems to be enormous support for lacrosse from Yale's leadership.

5. Transfers: I'm not sure that they hurt team culture, but they certainly change the expectations. My observation is that the best players tend to welcome them, since playing time isn't threatened, and these increase the probability of winning it all. For less talented players, expectations of growing with the program over a career certainly change.

6. Ivy League: There is nothing like the Ivy League to remind students that there are bigger, stronger, faster and smarter people in the world. Adding quality recruits and possibly transfers simply prepares student athletes for coping with competitive environments.

[DocBarrister]

I think the point some were making is that academic admission standards for recruited athletes are more “forgiving” or “flexible” than for non-athlete applicants. That is unquestionably and undeniably true. That’s true at Yale, Johns Hopkins, Alabama, Michigan ... just about every college that plays intercollegiate sports.

That doesn’t mean some lacrosse players wouldn’t have been admitted if they weren’t recruited lacrosse players. Some would have been admitted. Most probably would not have been admitted to a school like Yale. That’s just the way it is.

Same is true at Hopkins. Chris Watson (Class of 2005) probably had a good chance of getting into most top tier colleges even if he never played lacrosse. Other members of the Hopkins lacrosse team would probably have had a challenging time getting into their own state universities or a competitive regional school like Loyola if it were not for their lacrosse. That’s just the way it is.

As one recent news article reported, the impact of “recruited athlete” admissions is probably even larger at smaller elite schools like Yale, Brown, and Johns Hopkins compared to much larger universities like Michigan. As the article noted, both Michigan and Brown had 910 varsity athletes, but that was a much smaller percentage of students at Michigan than at Brown. Arguably, recruited athlete admissions impacted Brown applicants more than Michigan applicants.

Fair to non-athlete applicants? Depends on your perspective, values, and priorities.

DocBarrister

[FannOLax]

I think the point some were making is that academic admission standards for recruited athletes are more “forgiving” or “flexible” than for non-athlete applicants. That is unquestionably and undeniably true. That’s true at Yale, Johns Hopkins, Alabama, Michigan ...
Fair to non-athlete applicants? Depends on your perspective, values, and priorities.

DocBarrister

Academic standards at Yale are more "forgiving" and "flexible" for musical prodigies and other applicants with talents considered special, for children of foreign political refugees, etc. Also, given the goal of geographic diversity, it is easier for applicants from Wyoming and Idaho to get in; is this fair to students from NYC, New Jersey and Massachusetts? Life isn't fair.

[OCanada]

I thought I posted but it is missing so I guess I messed up. I don’t want to take the time to recreate it so in brief.

Harvard applicant- rather than repeat his quals trust they are as good as anyone’s. Denied. They already had 8 kids from his high school in a western state.

Daughter applied to Yale. Recruited to play lax competitive academically. Goes on to get a masters in architecture. Designs first zero footprint building and is invited to speak about it in Vienna Austria. Goes on to work for Harvard before being recruited away.

I know a few people who will argue that none of the criteria are necessarily predictive in total.