Orange Duce

[HooDat]

The world doesn't work like that. We have to pick a side. Can't have it both ways.

Iran is funding & supporting proxies in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon & Gaza. They're destabilizing the entire region.

The Global Economy is still dependent upon Persian Gulf oil, even if the US could be oil self-sufficient (at much higher prices).

If you want to be an isolationist, get on the Rand Paul bandwagon.

Then hand me a ticket and show me to my seat. Thanks to fracking and the dinosaurs, we have no real practical need for the ME. Why we are letting our young men die over there is a mystery to me.

Pull every single US citizen out of the ME, all of them.

Stop selling them arms.

Let them fix (or break) their own stuff, but quit letting them kill our kids while they do it.

- and stand by ready to provide humanitarian aid when asked and when they are ready to receive it.

First thing they teach you in life saving - if the victim is out of control and flailing, dive down, swim away and let them wear themselves out. Do NOT let them drown you while you are trying to save them.....

[runrussellrun]

The world doesn't work like that. We have to pick a side. Can't have it both ways.

Iran is funding & supporting proxies in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon & Gaza. They're destabilizing the entire region.

The Global Economy is still dependent upon Persian Gulf oil, even if the US could be oil self-sufficient (at much higher prices).

If you want to be an isolationist, get on the Rand Paul bandwagon.

Then hand me a ticket and show me to my seat. Thanks to fracking and the dinosaurs, we have no real practical need for the ME. Why we are letting our young men die over there is a mystery to me.

Pull every single US citizen out of the ME, all of them.

Stop selling them arms.

Let them fix (or break) their own stuff, but quit letting them kill our kids while they do it.

- and stand by ready to provide humanitarian aid when asked and when they are ready to receive it.

First thing they teach you in life saving - if the victim is out of control and flailing, dive down, swim away and let them wear themselves out. Do NOT let them drown you while you are trying to save them.....

but, but .....the economy HooDat.

Close West Point. We clearly don't need it. Blackwater and similars getting contracts to do our nations fighting? Guess it's just rewards as a "retirement" plan for our former uniformed folks.

[old salt]

Obama tried a different way. Withdrew. The result --

The Arab Spring, rise of the Muslim Brotherhood, regime change &/or failed states in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen & the rise of ISIS & conquest of most of the best parts of Syria & Iraq to establish a Caliphate ? While giving Iran back their billions to finance their proxies throughout the region.

How'd that different way work out ?

Are you asking how did that different way work out for Americans? Do you really not know the answer?

Secondly, you seriously think that all of the above happened because 20k US troops in a country nowhere near Libya, Egypt, or Yemen left? Total cause and effect? Syria, yeah, okay....but Yemen?

How far is Libya from Iraq, again? 1,000+ miles?

And obviously, this always ignores Bush's choice of eviscerating Saddam's regime, and replacing it with US marines. That's what undid the region. Surely you're ready to admit that now. The rest of the world has: hence everyone is leaving Assad in power...because they saw what the US did in Iraq, and they're having none of that.

Sheesh. Focus on what it would take to salvage the situation after the surge, by 2008, which brought a fragile relative stability to Iraq. That's what Obama inherited.

I was referring to Obama's total Mid East policy, as it played out in each country listed, not just his withdrawl of troops from Iraq. It was pullback & lead from behind, throughout the region. Abandoning our traditional allies, leaving the door open for Iran & releasing the funds which enabled their adventures beyond their borders, further destabilizing the entire region by fueling the Sunni-Shia sectarian civil war.
...never mind.

[youthathletics]

Not everything is so B&W..... if you think past the immediate. If for one minute you believe we do not need West Point, then you clearly do not "fully" understand all that goes into these institutions.

[HooDat]

I am certainly not calling for the closure of our military academies.

I just don't think our young men and women need to be sacrificing their lives for people who don't even want our "help"

[Trinity]

It’s hard to unscrew a chicken. Bush led us into Iraq under false pretenses and negotiatiated our withdrawal before he left office. Really upset the old apple cart.

[HooDat]

What if everyone just picked up their guns, got on a chopper or plane and LEFT the ME?

then what?

seriously, what would happen?

I know one thing that would NOT happen. No more promising US young men and women would die over there......

[old salt]

I am certainly not calling for the closure of our military academies.

I just don't think our young men and women need to be sacrificing their lives for people who don't even want our "help"

That's no longer the case. Since 2008 we've had relatively few boots on the ground (compared to before) & the people they are supporting & enabling definitely want our "help".

We kicked over a hornets nest in 1991. Everything since has been dealing with the consequences & trying to extricate ourselves.

At least we're not doing regime change & occupation any longer. We're seeking stability, not imposing democracy.

Our casualties in the middle east are now less than stateside training & operational casualties.

[old salt]

It’s hard to unscrew a chicken. Bush led us into Iraq under false pretenses and negotiatiated our withdrawal before he left office. Really upset the old apple cart.

That's a phony cop out. Bush didn't negotiate our withdrawl. He negotiated the terms of our presence through 2010. There's a difference.

[old salt]

What if everyone just picked up their guns, got on a chopper or plane and LEFT the ME?

then what?

seriously, what would happen?

I know one thing that would NOT happen. No more promising US young men and women would die over there......

That's what we did in 2010. Look what happened. ISIS crawled out from under their rocks & established their caliphate, in short order.

[HooDat]

Our casualties in the middle east are now less than stateside training & operational casualties.

that's great, but I sure wouldn't want MY kids getting killed over there.....

For what? We don't have the stomach for war - and that is a good thing. If you are not prepared to go in and kill everything and everyone you see, you should not be launching invasions. That's how war "works". We haven't had the stomach for war since WWII. Again, that is a good thing. But the old guard farts and elitist theorists who send our kids to die on foreign soil need to acknowledge the fact that they are sending them to be cops when no one asked.....

I get what you are saying, they are asking now, and we started this mess, blah blah blah. But did we really? and when does the narcissistic need to take responsibility stop? FIFTEEN YEARS later, even one of our kids losing a life over there is plain stupid.

[HooDat]

What if everyone just picked up their guns, got on a chopper or plane and LEFT the ME?

then what?

seriously, what would happen?

I know one thing that would NOT happen. No more promising US young men and women would die over there......

That's what we did in 2010. Look what happened. ISIS crawled out from under their rocks & established their caliphate, in short order.

Did we?

Did we pull EVERY SINGLE United States citizen out of the region, along with our armaments? I must have missed that.

And it will always be something: ISIS, Saddam, the Ayatollah, the Sauds....

[old salt]

Our casualties in the middle east are now less than stateside training & operational casualties.

that's great, but I sure wouldn't want MY kids getting killed over there.....

For what? We don't have the stomach for war - and that is a good thing. If you are not prepared to go in and kill everything and everyone you see, you should not be launching invasions. That's how war "works". We haven't had the stomach for war since WWII. Again, that is a good thing. But the old guard farts and elitist theorists who send our kids to die on foreign soil need to acknowledge the fact that they are sending them to be cops when no one asked.....

I get what you are saying, they are asking now, and we started this mess, blah blah blah. But did we really? and when does the narcissistic need to take responsibility stop? FIFTEEN YEARS later, even one of our kids losing a life over there is plain stupid.

I agree with everything you say. As I see it now, we're trying to extricate ourselves, with minimal further damage.

Who do you think will be fighting (& taking casualties) in the tanks, fighter planes & attack helos we sell the Saudis, if they have to use them against Iran.

[HooDat]

I am way out of my depth if you are going to ask meaningful questions.....

What would happen if we stopped selling them tanks, fighter planes and attack helos?

...of course other than a lot of screaming out of general dynamics and their pals....?

[old salt]

I am way out of my depth if you are going to ask meaningful questions.....

What would happen if we stopped selling them tanks, fighter planes and attack helos?

...of course other than a lot of screaming out of general dynamics and their pals....?

It would undermine their entire defense capability. They're already using 75% US, 20% Brit, 5 % French/German/Spanish stuff.
You don't just switch over to Russian & Chinese stuff.
Without ongoing logistical & technical support, readiness atrophies.

That's what crippled Iran's & Iraq's military capability. It would be equally disruptive & debilitating to the Saudi's ability to defend themselves.

[Bandito]

Since all you TDS'ers and Dems on here call Trump an Orange Duce- which is racist, I will call Obama a black Muslim everytime I refer to him. That is fair right?

[a fan]

Sheesh. Focus on what it would take to salvage the situation after the surge, by 2008, which brought a fragile relative stability to Iraq. That's what Obama inherited.

Right. Ignore everything but what Obama "did wrong". So out of the last 50 years, just 8 years ruined everything. And of course, it wasn't the invasions.

So you give me grief for looking backwards, yet can't resist hammering Obama, and only Obama, for making mistakes over there. Got it.

I was referring to Obama's total Mid East policy, as it played out in each country listed, not just his withdrawl of troops from Iraq. It was pullback & lead from behind, throughout the region. Abandoning our traditional allies, leaving the door open for Iran & releasing the funds which enabled their adventures beyond their borders, further destabilizing the entire region by fueling the Sunni-Shia sectarian civil war.
...never mind.

Great. And the alternative was to send troops/money/support/all three to four brand new countries.....so now we're on the hook for Civil Wars/strife in Libya, Yemen, Syria, and Egypt?

THAT is what you think we should have done? More involvement in even more countries? And you're livid that Obama didn't send troops/money/support to four brand new war fronts?

[old salt]

Sheesh. Focus on what it would take to salvage the situation after the surge, by 2008, which brought a fragile relative stability to Iraq. That's what Obama inherited.

Right. Ignore everything but what Obama "did wrong". So out of the last 50 years, just 8 years ruined everything. And of course, it wasn't the invasions.

So you give me grief for looking backwards, yet can't resist hammering Obama, and only Obama, for making mistakes over there. Got it.

I was referring to Obama's total Mid East policy, as it played out in each country listed, not just his withdrawl of troops from Iraq. It was pullback & lead from behind, throughout the region. Abandoning our traditional allies, leaving the door open for Iran & releasing the funds which enabled their adventures beyond their borders, further destabilizing the entire region by fueling the Sunni-Shia sectarian civil war.
...never mind.

Great. And the alternative was to send troops/money/support/all three to four brand new countries.....so now we're on the hook for Civil Wars/strife in Libya, Yemen, Syria, and Egypt?

THAT is what you think we should have done? More involvement in even more countries? And you're livid that Obama didn't send troops/money/support to four brand new war fronts?

I brought up Obama because you said we should try a different way. He did. Now you whine because I pointed it out.

The world doesn't work like that.

After witnessing all the mistakes we've made in the last 30 years, you seriously still haven't considered another path?

Let's just keep doing the same thing?

The alternative was to not give the Cairo speech, seat the Muslim Brotherhood in the front row, then call for regime change in Egypt & abandon Mubarak.

The alternative was not to call for regime change & encourage the Syrians to overthrow Assad if we weren't going to support them (prompting our Amb to resign).

The alternative was not to support anti-Quadaffi rebels in Libya if we were just going to lead NATO from behind & not support them in the aftermath.

The alternative was to not withdraw a residual force from Iraq & leave the door wide open for ISIS.

The alternative was to not lift sanctions on Iran & unlock the funds necessary for their interventions throughout the region.

Obama greenlighted & sparked the Arab Spring with his Cairo speech. The result was turmoil & regime changes throughout the region.

How'd THAT different way work out ?

[youthathletics]

I am certainly not calling for the closure of our military academies.

I just don't think our young men and women need to be sacrificing their lives for people who don't even want our "help"

My comment was directed as RRR, not you HooDat...sorry for the confusion.

[foreverlax]

Since all you TDS'ers and Dems on here call Trump an Orange Duce- which is racist, I will call Obama a black Muslim everytime I refer to him. That is fair right?

Be who you want....seems not to matter what we say.

btw - Trump is a DOPUS....BHO is not a Muslim.