Regulation - Too Much or Too Little?

[jhu72]

I am not so convinced about the UL marking being a proxy for safety

ya don't say?....

Over our lifetimes we have watched the experts get replaced by the credentialed - the problem is there is a difference between the two..... And the difference is becoming more apparent every time I turn on the news....

Why do you believe experts are being replaced by "credentialed" and how do we find experts that are "credentialed"? Is there no such thing as credentialed experts? My guess is nobody wants them..... that is probably the problem.

By credentialed, I mean people who have all the right degrees from all the right institutions but are a product of working the systems rather than learning the material. These people know how to play the game, write a report and build to code, but they don't actually understand the subjects in which they are supposed to be experts. Of course there are credentialed experts, esp since the credentialing institutions do their best to make sure that self-taught experts are ignored. But there are FAR more people with the credentials than actually know what the heck they are doing. This is in science, education, medicine, finance, engineering, wildlife management - you name it.

... I think you are way to skeptical. In my experience there are far more credentialed experts than uncredentialed experts, the uncredentialed experts are just as good as the credentialed experts, generally. I also find it is pretty easy to weed out the non-experts of both types and both types exist. The uncredentialed experts do however tend to have chips on their shoulders of varying degree. The uncredentialed non-experts have the largest chips on their shoulders. The credentialed experts who are really non-expert play a very large role in creating chips on shoulders. Again all in my experience.

[Farfromgeneva]

I am not so convinced about the UL marking being a proxy for safety

ya don't say?....

Over our lifetimes we have watched the experts get replaced by the credentialed - the problem is there is a difference between the two..... And the difference is becoming more apparent every time I turn on the news....

Why do you believe experts are being replaced by "credentialed" and how do we find experts that are "credentialed"? Is there no such thing as credentialed experts? My guess is nobody wants them..... that is probably the problem.

By credentialed, I mean people who have all the right degrees from all the right institutions but are a product of working the systems rather than learning the material. These people know how to play the game, write a report and build to code, but they don't actually understand the subjects in which they are supposed to be experts. Of course there are credentialed experts, esp since the credentialing institutions do their best to make sure that self-taught experts are ignored. But there are FAR more people with the credentials than actually know what the heck they are doing. This is in science, education, medicine, finance, engineering, wildlife management - you name it.

... I think you are way to skeptical. In my experience there are far more credentialed experts than uncredentialed experts, the uncredentialed experts are just as good as the credentialed experts, generally. I also find it is pretty easy to weed out the non-experts of both types and both types exist. The uncredentialed experts do however tend to have chips on their shoulders of varying degree. The uncredentialed non-experts have the largest chips on their shoulders. The credentialed experts who are really non-expert play a very large role in creating chips on shoulders. Again all in my experience.

https://www.econtalk.org/dick-carpenter ... leneckers/


Dick Carpenter on Bottleneckers
Jan 8 2018
Bottleneckers.jpgDick Carpenter of the Institute for Justice and author of Bottleneckers talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about his book--a look at how occupational licensing and other regulations protect existing job holders from competition.

[HooDat]

... I think you are way to skeptical. In my experience there are far more credentialed experts than uncredentialed experts, the uncredentialed experts are just as good as the credentialed experts, generally. I also find it is pretty easy to weed out the non-experts of both types and both types exist. The uncredentialed experts do however tend to have chips on their shoulders of varying degree. The uncredentialed non-experts have the largest chips on their shoulders. The credentialed experts who are really non-expert play a very large role in creating chips on shoulders. Again all in my experience.

There are more qualified people that haven’t gone through that process than those that have and are now being displaced?

I am obviously not making my point very clearly.

In today's world there are NO un-credentialed experts. Regulations and governing bodies have made it so that you can't even cut hair without the proper credentials.

But, I guess like everything in life there is a distribution curve around ability. My point is that the curve is not a normal distribution but skewed to a lack of actual expertise in the subject matter in which they are credentialed. The piece of paper has become more important than ability.

jhu72 - as to your ability to weed out the non-experts with credentials - how exactly are you doing that in any situation where it matters? Unless you are an expert in the field you can't weed them out. And most of the time, since you aren't even there, you don't have the opportunity to weed out the "credentialed" engineer who designed the rail car that isn't supposed to leak when it flips but it does; or the credentialed engineer who got bridge load capacity wrong, or the credentialed aerospace engineer who wrote the wrong spec for an O-ring, or the credentialed journalist who broadcasts propoganda....

[Typical Lax Dad]

... I think you are way to skeptical. In my experience there are far more credentialed experts than uncredentialed experts, the uncredentialed experts are just as good as the credentialed experts, generally. I also find it is pretty easy to weed out the non-experts of both types and both types exist. The uncredentialed experts do however tend to have chips on their shoulders of varying degree. The uncredentialed non-experts have the largest chips on their shoulders. The credentialed experts who are really non-expert play a very large role in creating chips on shoulders. Again all in my experience.

There are more qualified people that haven’t gone through that process than those that have and are now being displaced?

I am obviously not making my point very clearly.

In today's world there are NO un-credentialed experts. Regulations and governing bodies have made it so that you can't even cut hair without the proper credentials.

But, I guess like everything in life there is a distribution curve around ability. My point is that the curve is not a normal distribution but skewed to a lack of actual expertise in the subject matter in which they are credentialed. The piece of paper has become more important than ability.

jhu72 - as to your ability to weed out the non-experts with credentials - how exactly are you doing that in any situation where it matters? Unless you are an expert in the field you can't weed them out. And most of the time, since you aren't even there, you don't have the opportunity to weed out the "credentialed" engineer who designed the rail car that isn't supposed to leak when it flips but it does; or the credentialed engineer who got bridge load capacity wrong, or the credentialed aerospace engineer who wrote the wrong spec for an O-ring, or the credentialed journalist who broadcasts propoganda....

What is your solution? Self instruction and On The Job Training? Expert is expert. You may mean there are credentialed people that aren’t expert. Just as there are un credentialed people that aren’t expert….. I am getting work done on my home this Spring. I am going to look for the unlicensed professionals because they are likely just as good and cheaper as folk carrying a license.

[HooDat]

What is your solution? Self instruction and On The Job Training? Expert is expert. You may mean there are credentialed people that aren’t expert. Just as there are un credentialed people that aren’t expert….. I am getting work done on my home this Spring. I am going to look for the unlicensed professionals because they are likely just as good and cheaper as folk carrying a license.

I don't have a solution that is any better than the one you just implied - fix the credentialing institutions and break the regulatory capture of credentialing process.

If you have good connections or understand what is needed, your seeking out unlicensed professionals is one way to break the stranglehold - but if you need a permit you are hosed, because I can all but guarantee the regulators and the credentialing institutions won't issue permits for work not done by a licensed professional.

Back to my lack of a solution. I don't have one. I just know that in my professional life I come across way too many people who don't know what the heck they are doing but have fancy degrees. But about the only thing they learned was how to cut every corner to the slimmest margin possible. These kind of people are very into the phrase "over-engineered". And the regulators and politicians love it, because the consumers don't understand that the thing they are getting was cheaper for a reason.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

What is your solution? Self instruction and On The Job Training? Expert is expert. You may mean there are credentialed people that aren’t expert. Just as there are un credentialed people that aren’t expert….. I am getting work done on my home this Spring. I am going to look for the unlicensed professionals because they are likely just as good and cheaper as folk carrying a license.

I don't have a solution that is any better than the one you just implied - fix the credentialing institutions and break the regulatory capture of credentialing process.

If you have good connections or understand what is needed, your seeking out unlicensed professionals is one way to break the stranglehold - but if you need a permit you are hosed, because I can all but guarantee the regulators and the credentialing institutions won't issue permits for work not done by a licensed professional.

Back to my lack of a solution. I don't have one. I just know that in my professional life I come across way too many people who don't know what the heck they are doing but have fancy degrees. But about the only thing they learned was how to cut every corner to the slimmest margin possible. These kind of people are very into the phrase "over-engineered". And the regulators and politicians love it, because the consumers don't understand that the thing they are getting was cheaper for a reason.....

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing and do you ever run across someone without a fancy degree that don’t know what they are doing? Unlicensed professionals is the way to go….I thought COVID was going to be the end of colleges. Too bad it didn’t work out that way.

[HooDat]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

[Farfromgeneva]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

I know you are using this as a metaphor but....

raising my hand at my desk right now...

[Typical Lax Dad]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

Occasionally. I believe kids with fancy degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

[HooDat]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

Occasionally. I believe kids with fancy degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

I often find them to be more useful.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

Occasionally. I believe kids with fancy degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

I often find them to be more useful.

In what way? Also, fancy degree or fancy school?

[PizzaSnake]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

[youthathletics]

This is insane. https://twitter.com/chuckcallesto/statu ... su03RaUDfQ

Plane of environmental scientists heading to Ohio crashed and they die.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

Sarcasm. I am not sure how the fancy degree attracts kids that are not as competent and the more competent pursue less fancy degrees….Not sure how that works. How are these pools distinguished? Hoping Hoodatis can explain how that works.

[PizzaSnake]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

Sarcasm. I am not sure how the fancy degree attracts kids that are not as competent and the more competent pursue less fancy degrees….Not sure how that works. How are this pools distinguished? Hoping Hoodatis can explain how that works.

Oops. Mentat moment. I should remember your predilections.

[Farfromgeneva]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

Sarcasm. I am not sure how the fancy degree attracts kids that are not as competent and the more competent pursue less fancy degrees….Not sure how that works. How are this pools distinguished? Hoping Hoodatis can explain how that works.

I was waitlist accepted to brown but ended up at Hobart due to a combination of money and my football host had to pick me up from a girls dorm room when I visited Geneva fall of my senior year of HS. And the latter honestly probably drove it more than the former. I didn’t do as well again until late soph year as that weekend if were ranking aesthetics.

So there is one reason an occasional kid might “trade down”. Then again Brown was lucky to avoid a dumba** like me who was so motivated by the wrong head

[Typical Lax Dad]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

Sarcasm. I am not sure how the fancy degree attracts kids that are not as competent and the more competent pursue less fancy degrees….Not sure how that works. How are this pools distinguished? Hoping Hoodatis can explain how that works.

I was waitlist accepted to brown but ended up at Hobart due to a combination of money and my football host had to pick me up from a girls dorm room when I visited Geneva fall of my senior year of HS. And the latter honestly probably drove it more than the former. I didn’t do as well again until late soph year as that weekend if were ranking aesthetics.

So there is one reason an occasional kid might “trade down”. Then again Brown was lucky to avoid a dumba** like me who was so motivated by the wrong head

I received no encouragement to consider Brown when they inquired about hoops. Anyway….I am not sure if Hoodatis means fancy degrees or fancy schools.

[Farfromgeneva]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

Sarcasm. I am not sure how the fancy degree attracts kids that are not as competent and the more competent pursue less fancy degrees….Not sure how that works. How are this pools distinguished? Hoping Hoodatis can explain how that works.

I was waitlist accepted to brown but ended up at Hobart due to a combination of money and my football host had to pick me up from a girls dorm room when I visited Geneva fall of my senior year of HS. And the latter honestly probably drove it more than the former. I didn’t do as well again until late soph year as that weekend if were ranking aesthetics.

So there is one reason an occasional kid might “trade down”. Then again Brown was lucky to avoid a dumba** like me who was so motivated by the wrong head

I received no encouragement to consider Brown when they inquired about hoops. Anyway….I am not sure if Hoodatis means fancy degrees or fancy schools.

Don’t forget I’m a rent seeking POS banker with a MBA as well. Not fancy but then again I really really hate that word. Something about it grates at my nerves even if I can’t explain why.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You ever run across someone with a fancy degree that know what they are doing

of course occasionally. But I remained dumbfounded by the percentage of these types who just love the smell of their own farts......

degrees aren’t as smart as those without them.

That is an interesting assertion about education and the distribution of intelligence.

Or perhaps your definition of “smart.”

Sarcasm. I am not sure how the fancy degree attracts kids that are not as competent and the more competent pursue less fancy degrees….Not sure how that works. How are this pools distinguished? Hoping Hoodatis can explain how that works.

I was waitlist accepted to brown but ended up at Hobart due to a combination of money and my football host had to pick me up from a girls dorm room when I visited Geneva fall of my senior year of HS. And the latter honestly probably drove it more than the former. I didn’t do as well again until late soph year as that weekend if were ranking aesthetics.

So there is one reason an occasional kid might “trade down”. Then again Brown was lucky to avoid a dumba** like me who was so motivated by the wrong head

I received no encouragement to consider Brown when they inquired about hoops. Anyway….I am not sure if Hoodatis means fancy degrees or fancy schools.

Don’t forget I’m a rent seeking POS banker with a MBA as well. Not fancy but then again I really really hate that word. Something about it grates at my nerves even if I can’t explain why.

Also could be fancy people.

[PizzaSnake]

... I think you are way to skeptical. In my experience there are far more credentialed experts than uncredentialed experts, the uncredentialed experts are just as good as the credentialed experts, generally. I also find it is pretty easy to weed out the non-experts of both types and both types exist. The uncredentialed experts do however tend to have chips on their shoulders of varying degree. The uncredentialed non-experts have the largest chips on their shoulders. The credentialed experts who are really non-expert play a very large role in creating chips on shoulders. Again all in my experience.

There are more qualified people that haven’t gone through that process than those that have and are now being displaced?

I am obviously not making my point very clearly.

In today's world there are NO un-credentialed experts. Regulations and governing bodies have made it so that you can't even cut hair without the proper credentials.

But, I guess like everything in life there is a distribution curve around ability. My point is that the curve is not a normal distribution but skewed to a lack of actual expertise in the subject matter in which they are credentialed. The piece of paper has become more important than ability.

jhu72 - as to your ability to weed out the non-experts with credentials - how exactly are you doing that in any situation where it matters? Unless you are an expert in the field you can't weed them out. And most of the time, since you aren't even there, you don't have the opportunity to weed out the "credentialed" engineer who designed the rail car that isn't supposed to leak when it flips but it does; or the credentialed engineer who got bridge load capacity wrong, or the credentialed aerospace engineer who wrote the wrong spec for an O-ring, or the credentialed journalist who broadcasts propoganda....

"Credentialing" for subject matter expertise is just one part of the process. Establish a standard, in this case subject matter mastery, then measure adherence, then enforce. In the cases cited above, what happened when the deficiency was determined (measured)? Was meaningful, corrective action taken that would improve the state of those whose well-being was served by the standard? Certain professions, medical doctors, appear to be the worst in the "corrective" phase of the process due to either "tribal" loyalty to members of the "club" or, most probably, fear of litigation. Even informal mechanisms for quality control have been debased by the rise of the Internet and false review production.

As I like to say, "build a better mousetrap and I'll build you a better fool." Humans as a group are very, very clever. Any sort of system designed by other humans to modify or correct anti-social behavior will quickly be circumvented. Ever wonder why legislatures never finish their work? Vive la innovation...