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[RedFromMI]

The real problem with school choice and charter schools is they are just another form of an educational philosophy called tracking. Students are classified by ability levels (and use of that term implies that this is something innate), and separated by those groupings. Does great for the students who end up in the top group (and never mind if the selection process is biased - which it often is). But the real problem is the lower groupings - because they have no examples of high achievement (a better term to use anyway), they suffer from the "educational slum" that has been essentially set up for them.

I am a great example of that growing up in the 60s in Flint, MI - I was tracked all through 1-12, and ended up in the high group. So in spite of who might be the worst students, I saw no negative effects because of that segregation. And segregation it was - in a school that was racially mixed the top 1 of four classes in grades 4-6 had exactly one Black student. 80%+ in the bottom one.

And that was one of the best elementary schools achievement-wise in the entire city (of roughly 25 schools).

Many studies have basically concluded - you don't hurt the best students, but you absolutely do hurt the worst ones.

Charter schools, if not a random assignment (which they seldom are) are just a "whole school" approach to tracking, as are private schools, in reality. The better way to handle the issue is to base education on equality (principle guiding tenet for Finland, which has improved its schools tremendously in recent years), pay teachers well, and expect masters degrees and accountability. The reason equality works is that the good students end up pulling up the bad ones.

[Peter Brown]

That is most definitely not school choice advocate's position on the 'schools left behind'. You can not be involved with a charter school if you believe that to be the case. Their position is, in order to compel public schools to improve (which they want), you must introduce competition. That is it in all of its simplicity.

Right. As I said, this entire idea assumes the problem is the teachers. A house built on wet sand. The logic is jawdropping-ly bad.

It's the easiest thing in the world to prove that school choice doesn't work for the overall education of our country. And I already told you how to do it.

Take the best teachers in a given State, and put them in the lowest performing school in a poor urban neighborhood.

Then sit back and watch what happens. I'd wager any amount you'd like that the change would be next to nothing...at best.

If you were right, Pete...the kids would flourish. And everyone reading this knows doggone well that that wouldn't happen.

My focus is children and their families, not DNC talking points. If families in urban areas vote with their feet on which school to attend, and they do with overwhelming margins for charter schools and school choice, who is anyone to say no to that? These black moms and dads know what's up, and anyone with half a brain should support the parent's desire to improve their kids' education. Anyone saying no has an agenda.

The side benefit to charter schools and choice is competition forces bloated public school bureaucracies to start focusing on the students rather than their contracts.

Win-win.

[Peter Brown]

The real problem with school choice and charter schools is they are just another form of an educational philosophy called tracking. Students are classified by ability levels (and use of that term implies that this is something innate), and separated by those groupings. Does great for the students who end up in the top group (and never mind if the selection process is biased - which it often is). But the real problem is the lower groupings - because they have no examples of high achievement (a better term to use anyway), they suffer from the "educational slum" that has been essentially set up for them.

I am a great example of that growing up in the 60s in Flint, MI - I was tracked all through 1-12, and ended up in the high group. So in spite of who might be the worst students, I saw no negative effects because of that segregation. And segregation it was - in a school that was racially mixed the top 1 of four classes in grades 4-6 had exactly one Black student. 80%+ in the bottom one.

And that was one of the best elementary schools achievement-wise in the entire city (of roughly 25 schools).

Many studies have basically concluded - you don't hurt the best students, but you absolutely do hurt the worst ones.

Charter schools, if not a random assignment (which they seldom are) are just a "whole school" approach to tracking, as are private schools, in reality. The better way to handle the issue is to base education on equality (principle guiding tenet for Finland, which has improved its schools tremendously in recent years), pay teachers well, and expect masters degrees and accountability. The reason equality works is that the good students end up pulling up the bad ones.

This post is symbolic of someone who fundamentally doesn't believe in nor understands the benefits of competition.

[RedFromMI]

The real problem with school choice and charter schools is they are just another form of an educational philosophy called tracking. Students are classified by ability levels (and use of that term implies that this is something innate), and separated by those groupings. Does great for the students who end up in the top group (and never mind if the selection process is biased - which it often is). But the real problem is the lower groupings - because they have no examples of high achievement (a better term to use anyway), they suffer from the "educational slum" that has been essentially set up for them.

I am a great example of that growing up in the 60s in Flint, MI - I was tracked all through 1-12, and ended up in the high group. So in spite of who might be the worst students, I saw no negative effects because of that segregation. And segregation it was - in a school that was racially mixed the top 1 of four classes in grades 4-6 had exactly one Black student. 80%+ in the bottom one.

And that was one of the best elementary schools achievement-wise in the entire city (of roughly 25 schools).

Many studies have basically concluded - you don't hurt the best students, but you absolutely do hurt the worst ones.

Charter schools, if not a random assignment (which they seldom are) are just a "whole school" approach to tracking, as are private schools, in reality. The better way to handle the issue is to base education on equality (principle guiding tenet for Finland, which has improved its schools tremendously in recent years), pay teachers well, and expect masters degrees and accountability. The reason equality works is that the good students end up pulling up the bad ones.

This post is symbolic of someone who fundamentally doesn't believe in nor understands the benefits of competition.

Bullsh!t. You can have plenty of competition within such a system. And it is clear you know squat about educational systems.

And the better students actually can gain from such a system - because in assisting with the teaching, they actually do a better job of reinforcing their education.

PB's views of competition is we discard the losers. That is the real problem with his notion of competition.

[CU77]

Do you understand the basic fundamental concept of competition?

Do you understand the basic fundamental concept of fair competition?

Again: take a random sample of students at a public school, take the same budget per student as the public school, and THEN do better.

When you can do THAT, then you have something worth looking at.

[Peter Brown]

The real problem with school choice and charter schools is they are just another form of an educational philosophy called tracking. Students are classified by ability levels (and use of that term implies that this is something innate), and separated by those groupings. Does great for the students who end up in the top group (and never mind if the selection process is biased - which it often is). But the real problem is the lower groupings - because they have no examples of high achievement (a better term to use anyway), they suffer from the "educational slum" that has been essentially set up for them.

I am a great example of that growing up in the 60s in Flint, MI - I was tracked all through 1-12, and ended up in the high group. So in spite of who might be the worst students, I saw no negative effects because of that segregation. And segregation it was - in a school that was racially mixed the top 1 of four classes in grades 4-6 had exactly one Black student. 80%+ in the bottom one.

And that was one of the best elementary schools achievement-wise in the entire city (of roughly 25 schools).

Many studies have basically concluded - you don't hurt the best students, but you absolutely do hurt the worst ones.

Charter schools, if not a random assignment (which they seldom are) are just a "whole school" approach to tracking, as are private schools, in reality. The better way to handle the issue is to base education on equality (principle guiding tenet for Finland, which has improved its schools tremendously in recent years), pay teachers well, and expect masters degrees and accountability. The reason equality works is that the good students end up pulling up the bad ones.

This post is symbolic of someone who fundamentally doesn't believe in nor understands the benefits of competition.

Bullsh!t. You can have plenty of competition within such a system. And it is clear you know squat about educational systems.

You should tell the 72% of black parents in this poll who support charter school choice.

http://rolandsmartin.com/wp-content/upl ... nes-d5.pdf

You obviously know what's best for their kids. Probably ok with this: Of Baltimore City’s 39 High Schools, 13 had zero students proficient in math.

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-b ... nt-in-math

Way to support kids. yay.

[CU77]

You have no evidence at all that your charter would do better with the same students and the same budget.

[RedFromMI]

You have no evidence at all that your charter would do better with the same students and the same budget.

He just sees the world through Ayn Rand glasses. That unfortunately mostly produces selfish conceited young men who think they are so much better than the world around them.

There is plenty of evidence of the Finnish approach to upgrading their system.

[CU77]

LeBron James' school in Akron (my hometown) is doing well. It's a PUBLIC school, run by the Akron School District (and props to LeBron for this choice).

But: its budget is roughly 30% higher than other district schools.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/educ ... -ohio.html

[a fan]

Personal responsibility, Choice. Parental involvement. Food. Cops.

Anyone that supported the government usurping the role of father in the black family are to blame. Before Lyndon Johnson blacks had stronger family units than whites. Healthier communities.

Great. You're in a position to do that. Tell your Republican leaders to cut America off. No more handouts.

Problem solved. Your team, despite all your protestations to the contrary, has made handouts far, far larger every single chance they've gotten. Especially your man Trump. Complain to him.

You and Pete DESPERATELY want to blame the Dems for this. Nope. Every single time your team has had a chance to shrink government, and shrink handouts...they've done the opposite.

It's up to you to change this. Talk to your rep.

[6ftstick]

Personal responsibility, Choice. Parental involvement. Food. Cops.

Anyone that supported the government usurping the role of father in the black family are to blame. Before Lyndon Johnson blacks had stronger family units than whites. Healthier communities.

Great. You're in a position to do that. Tell your Republican leaders to cut America off. No more handouts.

Problem solved. Your team, despite all your protestations to the contrary, has made handouts far, far larger every single chance they've gotten. Especially your man Trump. Complain to him.

You and Pete DESPERATELY want to blame the Dems for this. Nope. Every single time your team has had a chance to shrink government, and shrink handouts...they've done the opposite.

It's up to you to change this. Talk to your rep.

Oh please kick the jukebox

Liberal democrats have run americas major cities since the great society.

6 generations.

[a fan]

Oh please kick the jukebox

Yep. You don't want to hear it. Stick your head in the sand, and "blame the Dems". That's working out great.

Liberal democrats have run americas major cities since the great society.

You're conflating two things intentionally so that you can blame the Dems for everything. In your ridiculous world, America was flawless with no poverty before Johnson showed up, and wrecked it all. It's just silly. Stop trying to act like none of us know a thing about American history.

The money and handouts are Federal, buddy. Your team keeps upping the handouts. Not my fault that you and Petey want to behave like children, plug your ears, and pretend like Republicans and flyover country aren't 1000% dependent on these handouts.

Let me know when you're ready to cut flyover America off. I would sign on to that so fast, it would make your head spin.

But your fake-*ss Republicans won't do that. You LOVE handouts. What you don't want, as we've seen time and time again...is that you don't want "other people" to get the handouts. So what does your side do? Whine and whine and blame everyone but yourselves....right before you dole out more handouts. Sell it somewhere else.

[a fan]

PB's views of competition is we discard the losers. That is the real problem with his notion of competition.

Bingo. The heart of the whole program. And some are at least honest enough to say as much. It's basically giving up on 90% of the kids.

[6ftstick]

Oh please kick the jukebox

Yep. You don't want to hear it. Stick your head in the sand, and "blame the Dems". That's working out great.

Liberal democrats have run americas major cities since the great society.

You're conflating two things intentionally so that you can blame the Dems for everything. In your ridiculous world, America was flawless with no poverty before Johnson showed up, and wrecked it all. It's just silly. Stop trying to act like none of us know a thing about American history.

The money and handouts are Federal, buddy. Your team keeps upping the handouts. Not my fault that you and Petey want to behave like children, plug your ears, and pretend like Republicans and flyover country aren't 1000% dependent on these handouts.

Let me know when you're ready to cut flyover America off. I would sign on to that so fast, it would make your head spin.

But your fake-*ss Republicans won't do that. You LOVE handouts. What you don't want, as we've seen time and time again...is that you don't want "other people" to get the handouts. So what does your side do? Whine and whine and blame everyone but yourselves....right before you dole out more handouts. Sell it somewhere else.

Guess what there's as many POOR today as there were when Lyndon Johnson started the War on Poverty. After trillions of dollars.

[CU77]

And without the trillions of dollars many more people would be poor today.

[ardilla secreta]

The real problem with school choice and charter schools is they are just another form of an educational philosophy called tracking. Students are classified by ability levels (and use of that term implies that this is something innate), and separated by those groupings. Does great for the students who end up in the top group (and never mind if the selection process is biased - which it often is). But the real problem is the lower groupings - because they have no examples of high achievement (a better term to use anyway), they suffer from the "educational slum" that has been essentially set up for them.

I am a great example of that growing up in the 60s in Flint, MI - I was tracked all through 1-12, and ended up in the high group. So in spite of who might be the worst students, I saw no negative effects because of that segregation. And segregation it was - in a school that was racially mixed the top 1 of four classes in grades 4-6 had exactly one Black student. 80%+ in the bottom one.

And that was one of the best elementary schools achievement-wise in the entire city (of roughly 25 schools).

Many studies have basically concluded - you don't hurt the best students, but you absolutely do hurt the worst ones.

Charter schools, if not a random assignment (which they seldom are) are just a "whole school" approach to tracking, as are private schools, in reality. The better way to handle the issue is to base education on equality (principle guiding tenet for Finland, which has improved its schools tremendously in recent years), pay teachers well, and expect masters degrees and accountability. The reason equality works is that the good students end up pulling up the bad ones.

Good points on the segregation by achievement of students. In addition, the lower achievement students get hurt socially by being stigmatized. This has to be a significant deterrent to their self esteem. Toss in the possibility of losing participation in sports because of grades, perhaps the one thing keeping them going and you have yourself one crushed kid.

[Peter Brown]

PB's views of competition is we discard the losers. That is the real problem with his notion of competition.

Bingo. The heart of the whole program. And some are at least honest enough to say as much. It's basically giving up on 90% of the kids.

Yeah that's *exactly* what's going on

You guys seems content with abysmal math and reading comprehension; what I hear is, 'throw more money at it'. Meanwhile, more money has been 'thrown at it', especially in the worst jurisdictions like Baltimore, and what you have to show for it is more taxpayer money going to Democratic politicians while student proficiency declines to 3rd world status.

You seem good with this. You certainly have no answer if your answer is simply 'more money'. What I take away from that is you have given up on all kids, not just 90%.

Maybe show a little courage and support competition. Competition is the only means to extract better results, from any and all facets of life, including education. Your inability or refusal or both to embrace competition gives you away as to what concerns you. It certainly is not the student.

[Peter Brown]

The real problem with school choice and charter schools is they are just another form of an educational philosophy called tracking. Students are classified by ability levels (and use of that term implies that this is something innate), and separated by those groupings. Does great for the students who end up in the top group (and never mind if the selection process is biased - which it often is). But the real problem is the lower groupings - because they have no examples of high achievement (a better term to use anyway), they suffer from the "educational slum" that has been essentially set up for them.

I am a great example of that growing up in the 60s in Flint, MI - I was tracked all through 1-12, and ended up in the high group. So in spite of who might be the worst students, I saw no negative effects because of that segregation. And segregation it was - in a school that was racially mixed the top 1 of four classes in grades 4-6 had exactly one Black student. 80%+ in the bottom one.

And that was one of the best elementary schools achievement-wise in the entire city (of roughly 25 schools).

Many studies have basically concluded - you don't hurt the best students, but you absolutely do hurt the worst ones.

Charter schools, if not a random assignment (which they seldom are) are just a "whole school" approach to tracking, as are private schools, in reality. The better way to handle the issue is to base education on equality (principle guiding tenet for Finland, which has improved its schools tremendously in recent years), pay teachers well, and expect masters degrees and accountability. The reason equality works is that the good students end up pulling up the bad ones.

Good points on the segregation by achievement of students. In addition, the lower achievement students get hurt socially by being stigmatized. This has to be a significant deterrent to their self esteem. Toss in the possibility of losing participation in sports because of grades, perhaps the one thing keeping them going and you have yourself one crushed kid.

High achievement happens when all of us get participation trophies and the lowest common denominator rules, said no competent human ever.

[RedFromMI]

What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success

The Scandinavian country is an education superpower because it values equality more than excellence.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... ss/250564/

one of the leading Finnish authorities on education reform, Pasi Sahlberg, director of the Finnish Ministry of Education's Center for International Mobility and author of the new book Finnish Lessons: What Can the World Learn from Educational Change in Finland?

Article from the Atlantic is on his visit to the US. Some points:

No private schools in Finland.

No standardized assessment exams except at the end of secondary school.

As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."

For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession, and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's responsibility to notice and deal with it.

And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

"Here in America," Sahlberg said at the Teachers College, "parents can choose to take their kids to private schools. It's the same idea of a marketplace that applies to, say, shops. Schools are a shop and parents can buy what ever they want. In Finland parents can also choose. But the options are all the same."

Herein lay the real shocker. As Sahlberg continued, his core message emerged, whether or not anyone in his American audience heard it.

Decades ago, when the Finnish school system was badly in need of reform, the goal of the program that Finland instituted, resulting in so much success today, was never excellence. It was equity.

* * *

Since the 1980s, the main driver of Finnish education policy has been the idea that every child should have exactly the same opportunity to learn, regardless of family background, income, or geographic location. Education has been seen first and foremost not as a way to produce star performers, but as an instrument to even out social inequality.

In the Finnish view, as Sahlberg describes it, this means that schools should be healthy, safe environments for children. This starts with the basics. Finland offers all pupils free school meals, easy access to health care, psychological counseling, and individualized student guidance.

In fact, since academic excellence wasn't a particular priority on the Finnish to-do list, when Finland's students scored so high on the first PISA survey in 2001, many Finns thought the results must be a mistake. But subsequent PISA tests confirmed that Finland -- unlike, say, very similar countries such as Norway -- was producing academic excellence through its particular policy focus on equity.

That this point is almost always ignored or brushed aside in the U.S. seems especially poignant at the moment, after the financial crisis and Occupy Wall Street movement have brought the problems of inequality in America into such sharp focus. The chasm between those who can afford $35,000 in tuition per child per year -- or even just the price of a house in a good public school district -- and the other "99 percent" is painfully plain to see.

[a fan]

Yeah that's *exactly* what's going on

You guys seems content with abysmal math and reading comprehension; what I hear is, 'throw more money at it'.

Where did I say that? Yeah....I didn't say that. But that's never stopped you before, so....

Maybe show a little courage and support competition. Competition is the only means to extract better results, from any and all facets of life, including education. Your inability or refusal or both to embrace competition gives you away as to what concerns you. It certainly is not the student.

You're going to lecture me on competition. Gee. I think I know a bit about competition given my vocation, Pete.

Take your charter schools to their logical conclusion, Pete. Make Maryland schools 100% charter. Across the board.

What do you think will happen?