Our Undeclared Wars

[a fan]

Of course it wouldn't survive. Republicans think that war fixes everything, so why hold to the deal?

Your problem here, is that I'm right: keep the nuclear deal in your back pocket, and press for more concessions at the table was the correct move. Keep Iranian Moderates fed with the carrot, while working on the whip for Iranian hardliners. All while keeping Iran from getting a nuke. Win. Win. WIn.

Trump ----Mr. Deal Maker-----didn't think of that option, because he's an impulsive moron surrounded by even more morons. And you didn't think of that option because of your partisan blinders.

So now we not only have no deal at all on any front, nuclear or otherwise....we have a negotiating partner who rightfully doesn't trust us. Brilliant. Spassky or Fischer would be dazzled by this chess.


And at some point, the NYTimes will ask US intel about the new timeline until Iran gets a nuke, unless Trump can suppress that intel. Then we're on the clock again, and we'll hear what brilliant ideas you have at the ready as to how to un-paint the corner we're in.

Beyond frustrating.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

[tech37]

Obama and our allies got them to stop their nuke program. You act like that's a trifle. A nothing.

Forget the little Ds and Rs schtick for once and consider reality.

What proof do you have to show Iran stopped their nuke program under JCPOA? And, how you can possibly trust the Mullahs is beyond me.

They have continued their long range ballistic missile development and not allowed inspectors into military sites. Those are the reasons Trump's admin broke from JCPOA and rightly so.

So where's the proof a fan since you and others are so certain Iran complied under JCPOA? Hint: You're kidding yourselves...

[old salt]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

Only in response to the constant whining from afan & others about JCPOA's failure to survive a (R) Presidency.
JCPOA is dead, in it's current form at least. It looks like Iran can't hold out until 2020.
We need a deal that can be ratified by the Senate & provides long term security for all parties.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

Only in response to the constant whining from afan & others about JCPOA's failure to survive a (R) Presidency.
JCPOA is dead, in it's current form at least. It looks like Iran can't hold out until 2020.
We need a deal that can be ratified by the Senate & provides long term security for all parties.

You brought him up.

[old salt]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

Only in response to the constant whining from afan & others about JCPOA's failure to survive a (R) Presidency.
JCPOA is dead, in it's current form at least. It looks like Iran can't hold out until 2020.
We need a deal that can be ratified by the Senate & provides long term security for all parties.

You brought him up.

As the guy who saddled us with the unsustainable JCPOA, which afan keeps bringing into the discussion about what's happening now & what comes next.
...& you keep bringing up the guy in the tan coat, as if that's relevant to anything.
I'm happy to forget about Obama if we can get past the irrelevant JCPOA deflections.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

Only in response to the constant whining from afan & others about JCPOA's failure to survive a (R) Presidency.
JCPOA is dead, in it's current form at least. It looks like Iran can't hold out until 2020.
We need a deal that can be ratified by the Senate & provides long term security for all parties.

You brought him up.

As the guy who saddled us with the unsustainable JCPOA, which afan keeps bringing into the discussion about what's happening now & what comes next.
...& you keep bringing up the guy in the tan coat, as if that's relevant to anything.
I'm happy to forget about Obama if we can get past the irrelevant JCPOA deflections.

All I know is that you brought him up.

[Brooklyn]

Obama and our allies got them to stop their nuke program. You act like that's a trifle. A nothing.

Forget the little Ds and Rs schtick for once and consider reality.

What proof do you have to show Iran stopped their nuke program under JCPOA? And, how you can possibly trust the Mullahs is beyond me.

They have continued their long range ballistic missile development and not allowed inspectors into military sites. Those are the reasons Trump's admin broke from JCPOA and rightly so.

So where's the proof a fan since you and others are so certain Iran complied under JCPOA? Hint: You're kidding yourselves...

Where's the proof of the claim Iran violated any such international accords? As you well know when charged with a crime the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation of a law violation. Trump and his fellow warmongers in Washington DC have been making this ridiculous claim for years and have yet to provide a shred of evidence. So where is your proof?

[CU77]

Your disappointment that things did not go badly reveals your true priorities.

I am NOT AT ALL DISAPPOINTED that Trump pulled back. I am THRILLED. I actually, literally said a prayer of thanks for Tucker Carlson (who allegedly talked sense into Trump).

But Trump is, at core, a clueless moron who wafts with the strongest breeze that comes by. This time, the breeze was sensible, and saved us all.

Meanwhile, you persist in your ludicrous claims that Trump is actually a Very Stable Genius who is playing nine-dimensional chess with the Iranians and everyone else. No matter what he does (attack, don't attack, whatever), you come here to tell us all how brilliant it was.

It's old and sad and tired, but it does have the virtue of revealing just why the country is so eff*d up.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Your disappointment that things did not go badly reveals your true priorities.

I am NOT AT ALL DISAPPOINTED that Trump pulled back. I am THRILLED. I actually, literally said a prayer of thanks for Tucker Carlson (who allegedly talked sense into Trump).

But Trump is, at core, a clueless moron who wafts with the strongest breeze that comes by. This time, the breeze was sensible, and saved us all.

Meanwhile, you persist in your ludicrous claims that Trump is actually a Very Stable Genius who is playing nine-dimensional chess with the Iranians and everyone else. No matter what he does (attack, don't attack, whatever), you come here to tell us all how brilliant it was.

It's old and sad and tired, but it does have the virtue of revealing just why the country is so eff*d up.

And pathetic

[old salt]

Your disappointment that things did not go badly reveals your true priorities.

I am NOT AT ALL DISAPPOINTED that Trump pulled back. I am THRILLED. I actually, literally said a prayer of thanks for Tucker Carlson (who allegedly talked sense into Trump).

But Trump is, at core, a clueless moron who wafts with the strongest breeze that comes by. This time, the breeze was sensible, and saved us all.

Meanwhile, you persist in your ludicrous claims that Trump is actually a Very Stable Genius who is playing nine-dimensional chess with the Iranians and everyone else. No matter what he does (attack, don't attack, whatever), you come here to tell us all how brilliant it was.

It's old and sad and tired, but it does have the virtue of revealing just why the country is so eff*d up.

And pathetic

I make no claim that Trump is actually a Very Stable Genius who is playing nine-dimensional chess with the Iranians and everyone else. No matter what he does (attack, don't attack, whatever), you come here to tell us all how brilliant it was.

I point out the holes in the attacks on him & the way everything he does is depicted negatively.
He is surrounded by some very competent people whose advice he heeds, on military matters.
In this case, Dunford more so than Carlson. The uniformed military & DoD were not clamoring for a counter-strike.

What's old, sad, tired, pathetic & tedious is the reflexive negativity & sweeping generalizations based on a lack of information.

[old salt]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

Only in response to the constant whining from afan & others about JCPOA's failure to survive a (R) Presidency.
JCPOA is dead, in it's current form at least. It looks like Iran can't hold out until 2020.
We need a deal that can be ratified by the Senate & provides long term security for all parties.

You brought him up.

As the guy who saddled us with the unsustainable JCPOA, which afan keeps bringing into the discussion about what's happening now & what comes next.
...& you keep bringing up the guy in the tan coat, as if that's relevant to anything.
I'm happy to forget about Obama if we can get past the irrelevant JCPOA deflections.

All I know is that you brought him up.

You're lying again. Pathetic.
As I said -- afan dragged Obama back into the discussion when he altered my original post, when he " fixed it for me" by deleting "Trump" & inserting " Obama"

The Iranians blew holes in 6 tankers in Intl waters & shot down a multi-million $$$ unmanned aircraft in intl airspace.

...& it's all Obama's {I posted Trump's} fault, he made them do it. Okie Dokie.

Fixed it for you. I take it you have forgotten that you and other posters held Obama accountable for anything and everything that happened in the ME?

Or how much you blamed on a silly speech he made in Cairo---and that Obama's words led to death and destruction in multiple countries?

Forgot ya did that?

[Typical Lax Dad]

You're the one who keeps dragging Obama back into the discussion, even when he's irrelevant to the current situation.
When he agreed to JCPOA, I warned you it would not survive a (R) Presidency.

Wait & see, Mr Instant gratification.

You brought him up.

Only in response to the constant whining from afan & others about JCPOA's failure to survive a (R) Presidency.
JCPOA is dead, in it's current form at least. It looks like Iran can't hold out until 2020.
We need a deal that can be ratified by the Senate & provides long term security for all parties.

You brought him up.

As the guy who saddled us with the unsustainable JCPOA, which afan keeps bringing into the discussion about what's happening now & what comes next.
...& you keep bringing up the guy in the tan coat, as if that's relevant to anything.
I'm happy to forget about Obama if we can get past the irrelevant JCPOA deflections.

All I know is that you brought him up.

You're lying again. Pathetic.
As I said -- afan dragged Obama back into the discussion when he altered my original post, when he " fixed it for me" by deleting "Trump" & inserting " Obama"

The Iranians blew holes in 6 tankers in Intl waters & shot down a multi-million $$$ unmanned aircraft in intl airspace.

...& it's all Obama's {I posted Trump's} fault, he made them do it. Okie Dokie.

Fixed it for you. I take it you have forgotten that you and other posters held Obama accountable for anything and everything that happened in the ME?

Or how much you blamed on a silly speech he made in Cairo---and that Obama's words led to death and destruction in multiple countries?

Forgot ya did that?

Old Sad Salty Sailor ...this was your post...your words have no honor.

Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Report Quote
Post by old salt » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:44 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:16 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:02 pm
If we don't go to war with Iran, will you be as disappointed as you were to learn from Mueller that our President did not conspire with Russia ?
We've already lost. But you know this. You advocated for this path, and now you know it was a foppish move made by a narcissist.

We have no good moves here. Nothing that will help short term. Nothing that will help long term. Trump made a mistake.

Once again, the largest military power the world has ever seen has painted themselves into a corner. Again and again, all that spending gives is FEWER choices, not MORE choices.
.. ...one drone shot down & you're declaring defeat. Iran's Houthi proxies shot down a MQ-9 Reaper over Yemen a month ago & you didn't even notice. The IRGC shot at (& missed) a MQ-9 we flew over the damaged tanker last wk. Don't buy into the media hype hysteria.

Our only mistake was exposing a big pricey RQ-4 as a target, instead of using a cheaper, smaller, harder to hit MQ-9.

If Obama had kept the sanctions on until Iran was this desperate, he could have at least gotten them to give up their ballistic missiles (as Kerry assured us they would). Look at the mayhem the IRGC has incited throughout the region with the funding that became available.

So long as Iran is fueling the civil war in Yemen, promoting Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq, Syria, & Lebanon, & firing on Israel from Golan & Gaza, we need to strangle them with sanctions.

If the JCPOA was so great, why couldn't Obama get it ratified ? All he did was implement a temporary EA that would not survive a GOP Presidency.
Typical Obama bait & switch.

[old salt]

You missed this one, a little up the page. How far back you wanna go ?
afan's reflexive response to me is that I was so mean to Obama.

Gotta make Iran the bad guys in the eyes of the world (oil users).
We're not there yet.

Problem is, anyone with a pulse sees that the 1st world had a deal with Iran, Trump dropped out, and provoked this inevitable response from Hardliners in Iran. We gave this win to the hardliners, like the idiots that we are. "See, I told you that America is the devil, can't be trusted, and wants war".

I wish I could pull up the Laxpower forum, and laugh at all the posters who claimed that with Trump, this kind of provocation would disappear. Because Obama was weak and a chicken, obviously. And Trump is John Wayne, with even smaller hands.....

[a fan]

Forget the little Ds and Rs schtick for once and consider reality.

Ah good. We've finally reached an issue where you can't accuse me of debating unfairly...what you call "a fan vortex". What I call logic.

This is a binary issue, so I don't have to worry about that. It's a yes/no answer.

Here's the context that you have purposefully ignored every time we have discussed this over the years.

The reason that Obama and our Allies signed the Nuclear Agreement, is that, and I'm going to bold this so that there's no misunderstanding, US Intel told Obama and our allies that Iran was months from getting a bomb. Not years. Not decades. Iran was a matter of months from getting a nuke. Months as in: less than a year.

Are we in agreement on this point that I bolded twice? Or are you going to play old salt's game where he doesn't bring this up, hoping other posters just think Obama signed that deal because he was bored on a Thursday, and was looking for something to sign for no reason?

So moving forward, the Iran deal was signed in July of 2015. It's almost July of 2019. So that's almost exactly four years ago, right?

Right. So guess what that means? Yep, that's right. Instead of Iran getting the bomb, as US intel predicted, by at the latest, July of 2016 (one year later)....what did this deal get us?

That's right. Three more years of Iran not getting a bomb. That's the scoreboard. Binary. Yes or no.

Does Iran have the bomb? No. No they don't.


So now are you going to hand me a bunch of spin? Or are you going to concede that the Iran Nuke deal worked?

If you can't own up to this simple, simple logic, and can't tell me that "yes, Obama's deal worked, and is still working this very day"?

I give up. You are unable to give Obama and our allies credit for anything....and that's where the D's and R's thing comes in. Because the deal worked. They don't have the bomb, and despite what you say, that's all the deal is supposed to do.

What proof do you have to show Iran stopped their nuke program under JCPOA?

Again, because they don't have a nuke. And US intel told us that they would have one by July of 2016 if Obama did nothing.

And, how you can possibly trust the Mullahs is beyond me.

I don't. But now you're stuck again.

What deal does Trump have with the Mullahs? He has nothing. You cannot spin this as a better deal, no matter how hard you try. We went from having a deal that our own General said they were following, to....nothing.

Are the Iranians still fomenting terrorism? Yep. They still hitting ships? Yep. They just pop one of our drones? Yep.

So you can't tell me that Trump has put us in a better situation. We now have nothing. And as I told old salt, sooner or later, the NYTimes will ask US intel sources when they think Iran will have the bomb. Then I'll be back to ask you and old salt what your plan is.

(and you won't have a plan. Shhhh.)

They have continued their long range ballistic missile development and not allowed inspectors into military sites. Those are the reasons Trump's admin broke from JCPOA and rightly so.

So your solution to this isn't to, I don't know, keep the Nuke agreement in place, and negotiate for more?

You think your way is better, where we don't get to inspect anything at all?

This is where I take care of one of Old Salt's standing gripes: "ok, what's your solution, or are you just going to complain?

A fan's solution? Keep the nuke deal in place. Start direct negotiations between Rouhani and Trump, just as we did with Kim. Work on the things you and old salt are complaining about, except now you have an nuke agreement already in your back pocket, and the US is holding to their word. Moreover, you start those negotiations in January of 2017, when you arrive in office.

Simple, non partisan answer. Moreover, this is obviously the right answer, since what Trump did was nothing whatsoever until May of 2018. What kind of stupidity was that? So Trump thinks the deal is terrible, as you do...and Trump proceeds to keep the deal in place for over a year and a half? What? So Iran gets another year plus of cash from normalized trade?

Under no circumstances can you sell someone that what Trump did makes sense. That's why I'm calling partisan BS.

So where's the proof a fan since you and others are so certain Iran complied under JCPOA? Hint: You're kidding yourselves...

Again, Obama signed the deal four years ago. Iran still doesn't have a bomb.

You'll never get better proof that an arms agreement worked. And yet here you are, arguing that the deal that plain-as-day worked......didn't work.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You missed this one, a little up the page. How far back you wanna go ?
afan's reflexive response to me is that I was so mean to Obama.

Gotta make Iran the bad guys in the eyes of the world (oil users).
We're not there yet.

Problem is, anyone with a pulse sees that the 1st world had a deal with Iran, Trump dropped out, and provoked this inevitable response from Hardliners in Iran. We gave this win to the hardliners, like the idiots that we are. "See, I told you that America is the devil, can't be trusted, and wants war".

I wish I could pull up the Laxpower forum, and laugh at all the posters who claimed that with Trump, this kind of provocation would disappear. Because Obama was weak and a chicken, obviously. And Trump is John Wayne, with even smaller hands.....

You brought him up in your post. Own up to it and move on old bean

[old salt]

You missed this one, a little up the page. How far back you wanna go ?
afan's reflexive response to me is that I was so mean to Obama.

Gotta make Iran the bad guys in the eyes of the world (oil users).
We're not there yet.

Problem is, anyone with a pulse sees that the 1st world had a deal with Iran, Trump dropped out, and provoked this inevitable response from Hardliners in Iran. We gave this win to the hardliners, like the idiots that we are. "See, I told you that America is the devil, can't be trusted, and wants war".

I wish I could pull up the Laxpower forum, and laugh at all the posters who claimed that with Trump, this kind of provocation would disappear. Because Obama was weak and a chicken, obviously. And Trump is John Wayne, with even smaller hands.....

You brought him up in your post. Own up to it and move on old bean

As I said -- afan dragged Obama into the discussion, a few posts up the page, in response to me.
...I try to avoid bringing up Obama with him.

[old salt]

Details on the Navy drone the Iranians splashed. A real thumb in our eye.
After all these years, we lost track of the boundary of Iranian airspace ?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/bams-d-dr ... -spy-plane

[Typical Lax Dad]

You missed this one, a little up the page. How far back you wanna go ?
afan's reflexive response to me is that I was so mean to Obama.

Gotta make Iran the bad guys in the eyes of the world (oil users).
We're not there yet.

Problem is, anyone with a pulse sees that the 1st world had a deal with Iran, Trump dropped out, and provoked this inevitable response from Hardliners in Iran. We gave this win to the hardliners, like the idiots that we are. "See, I told you that America is the devil, can't be trusted, and wants war".

I wish I could pull up the Laxpower forum, and laugh at all the posters who claimed that with Trump, this kind of provocation would disappear. Because Obama was weak and a chicken, obviously. And Trump is John Wayne, with even smaller hands.....

You brought him up in your post. Own up to it and move on old bean

As I said -- afan dragged Obama into the discussion, a few posts up the page, in response to me.
...I try to avoid bringing up Obama with him.

Uh huh

[OCanada]

Old Samt is basically an apologist. You can see it in his posts on Russia and here for example.

Iran abided by its agreement. It’s nkt like when the USA pulled out no one was left. Let me know when the others come forward with proof. Or for that matter trump.

I previously noted the similarity between Iraq and Iran now. Same key drivers. Those people are not highly competent. They are incapable of dealing with reality or finding a solution since they created the problem in the first place. A bunch of people who ate ready to commit our blood and our treasure for their private ends.

There is no credibility in the claim that Trump is in any way competent .