2024

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cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:26 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:43 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:18 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 11:56 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 11:42 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 10:55 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 10:35 am
a fan wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 12:01 am
old salt wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 11:16 pm The New Mexico factor
The current oil boom isn’t due to the administration’s policies — or any former president’s agenda, experts say. It’s the result of an oil boom in New Mexico.
Read this above part. Now read it again.

We've been pulling more and more oil and from privately owned land over the last 20 years. Doesn't matter who is in the White House.

But yep, Biden wants to slow oil extraction on Federal land. You're right about that. But he's not very effective at that.
Salty ignored that point and instead falsely claimed that it was due to policies from 2018. Typical.
Since you have ZERO integrity on this forum why should anyone believe your lies? OS I will always believe. MD lax I would never believe if he was lying on a stack of Protestant bibles.
Not with me. MDLax may p*ss you off with his usually fulsome explanations and posts, but he is relentlessly informed, informative, and courteous in the face of, and in response to, your ill-informed, faux "common sense," often rude buffoonery. OS is nothing more than a gaslighting partisan.
MD doesn't pizz me off. MD lax NEVER raised his paw and swore the same oath to this country that OS and I did. It's called having " skin in the game" MD pisses me off because he lies to the forum members here every day. I believe and trust Old Salt. I wouldn't trust MD lax to guide my granddaughter across the street. Never trust anyone who even as a pimpled faced teenager use to be a rabid Richard Nixon fan.
I kind of missed this response. Question: is this really what servicemen and -women, and veterans think of the rest of us -- that we have no skin in the game because we never served in the armed services branches and never "swore the same oath" as they did?
That is why I took the oath. I was willing to defend your right to your political perspective. Your correct there counselor, you do have skin in the game. So do you think it is a good strategy to label FRC folks as Nazi fascists? Because then when those FRC Nazi fascists label you as a commie pinko useful idiot y'all get your panties all tied up in a knot. It makes me wonder why your team hasn't made a conscious decision to dial down the rhetoric. It could possibly be that y'all really believe the Republicans really are made up of a bunch of Nazi fascists? It would be refreshing if someone on your team would repudiate the nonsense some of your team is dishing out. Do you believe me to be a FRC Nazi fascist? Wave a Nazi flag in front of me irregardless of politics and legal repercussions...I'll take my old bones and punch you in the face. My dad died with Nazi shrapnel imbedded in his back. Burn an American flag and I'll turn my back and walk away. In America today from the perspective of some folks, burning our flag is a true symbol of how a patriot is defined in 2024.
Have a good day counselor.
I can only respond for myself, of course. But I will try to respectfully do that.

My skin in the game is that I am a citizen, and believe in the deepest place in my heart and mind that the American experiment -- republican democracy, fidelity to the Constitution and laws, equal protection of the laws, separated and diffuse powers in government, the sanctity and importance of the vote, etc. -- is something worth giving our last and best chance to preserve and continue.

I hate that we are so polarized, but I do think things are far more grave, serious and threatening than many folks. Old Salt uses his derisive "be afraid, be very afraid" to chide and heckle those of us who believe as I do, that the current GOP nominee for the Presidency has had an unprecedented and, in relative terms, very serious and quick corrosive effect on the nation's trust in elections and electoral institutions and practices, and in fact plans on a de jure form of reducing the American experiment to something different than I have described above. I don't think all Republicans are "fascists;" I do think many of them do not fully comprehend what another Trump presidency will do to this country or what Trump's ambitions will lead to for all of us.

My team is -- and I know this sounds overly pious and snooty -- but my team is the America I have tried to describe, above. I am a Democrat, because that party most closely aligns with my own views, not 100%, maybe not even 75%, but I am aligned with the Democratic Party far, far, far more than the policy free, deeply sick thing that now passes itself off as the GOP.

I would never burn the flag. But at the same time I understand how profound a bit of political and moral expression that could be to and for some people. Four of my uncles and my dad served in WW2. My beloved aunt's brother died on Saipan when he was 20. I have tried -- maybe in vain -- to inculcate in my children (who are now adults) a love for the experiment and adventure that all Americans share. I have persisted in believing that there are more issues in common than divide us. But the politics of the day is grievance-heavy, "why them and not me" heavy. We'd all do well to tone down the rhetoric and search for solutions -- but that does not appear to be reflected in the campaigns for public office.
+1 I'm on board with you about all of the polarization in our country today. I'm also still a Democrat. That is how I registered in 1976 when my very first vote went for Jimmy Carter. He was a decent and good man who served as POTUS at a time when being decent and good wasn't enough. I'm deeply disappointed that the Democrat party I was raised in doesn't remotely resemble the Democrat party my mom and dad so fervently supported my entire life growing up. I've divested myself a long time ago from the belief that either party really gives a darn about the American people. The priority of all politicians is doing what they need to do to get re-elected. I have been impressed by the Democrat Governor of Maryland. After the FSK bridge collapsed his speeches and how he was dealing with the calamity was quite impressive. I think he is a politician the Democrats should seriously think about in 2028.
I could see Wes Moore being POTUS in the near future.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Column by David French, in the Times this morning:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/opin ... -view.html

"I’m having the strongest sense of déjà vu.

In 2012, I was a Republican partisan. This was when I was a conservative constitutional litigator and occasional Republican Party activist, before my journalism career. I’d helped form a group called Evangelicals for Mitt all the way back in 2005, hoping to persuade evangelical Republicans to support a Mormon for president. We’d done our small bit to help push Romney over the finish line in the primaries, and most conservatives seemed convinced that he should win. Republicans had swept the 2010 midterms, the unemployment rate remained high, and Barack Obama’s approval rating was below 50 percent.

But there was a problem: The polls were bad. Almost all of them showed Romney losing to Obama, and so conservative media started a movement to unskew the polls. There was even a website created, Unskewed Polls, that purported to fix the polling errors, and unskewed polls showed Romney winning.

Conservatives believed that pollsters were deliberately undercounting Republican votes to discourage Republican voters and sway the results of the election. So to unskew the results, they reweighted the samples to include a higher percentage of likely Republican voters. Conservatives thus created a parallel universe where Romney was leading, and many people at most senior levels of the campaign believed that mainstream polls were wrong and Romney would win — including, reportedly, even the candidate himself.

I was in Boston at the Romney party on election night, and when Fox News called Ohio for Obama, there was a palpable sense of shock, followed almost immediately by denial. I remember fielding emails in the days and weeks after the election from angry Republicans who wondered, even then, if Obama had cheated.

I thought of 2012 when I read in an Axios report this week that “President Biden doesn’t believe his bad poll numbers, and neither do many of his closest advisers.” That belief isn’t absurd on its face. After all, polling is difficult, and there have been a number of recent polling misses. As Axios notes, Donald Trump overperformed his polling in 2016 and 2020, and Democrats overperformed in 2022. And the sampling process is tricky as well.

For example, as The Times’s Nate Cohn noted on X, there is a stark difference between high-propensity voters, who are more likely to support Biden, and low-propensity voters, who are more likely to support Trump. Some percentage of those low-propensity voters will turn out. The key question is how many. But it’s one thing to criticize any given poll, and it’s another thing entirely to dismiss aggregated results, taken over months, that show the same thing: a race that is incredibly tight, far too tight for Biden’s comfort.

The purpose of this newsletter isn’t to adjudicate the polling dispute but to show an example of how the partisan mind works and how partisans process negative information. I could use any number of other examples. In a column last week, my colleague Ross Douthat rightly observed that “we are constantly urged to ‘stand with Israel’ when it’s unclear if Israel knows what it’s doing.”

Again, there are echoes of the past. I remember when supporters of Operation Iraqi Freedom constantly hyped good news from the battlefield and minimized bad news — right until the bad news became so overwhelming that the need for a radical strategy change was clear to everyone, from the soldier walking the streets of Baghdad to President George W. Bush and his team of national security advisers.

Before Bush changed tactics and reinforced American troops during the surge in 2007 and 2008, it sometimes felt disloyal in Republican circles to criticize the course of the war. To this day, I wonder how much Republican loyalty actually harmed the cause. Could we have changed our military tactics sooner if we had been able to see the battlefield more clearly? Did paradigm blindness — the unwillingness or inability to accept challenges to our core ways of making sense of the world — inhibit our ability to see obvious truths?

I write often about American polarization, including about how the red-blue divide is perhaps less illuminating than the gap between engaged and disengaged Americans, in which an exhausted majority encounters the highly polarized activist wings of both parties and shrinks back from the fray. This dynamic helps explain why our political culture feels so stagnant. The wings aren’t changing each other’s minds — hard-core Democrats aren’t going to persuade hard-core Republicans — but they’re also not reaching sufficient numbers of persuadable voters to break America’s partisan deadlock.

Even worse, partisans don’t realize they’re part of the problem. Their zeal isn’t persuasive; it’s alienating, and the examples above help illustrate why.

In 2020, when I was doing research for my book about the growing danger of partisan division, I began to learn more about what extreme partisanship does not only to our hearts but also to our minds. It can deeply and profoundly distort the way we view the world. We become so emotionally and spiritually invested in the outcome of a political contest that we can inadvertently become disconnected from reality.

To put it another way: Our heart connects with our mind in such a way that the heart demands that the mind conform to its deepest desires. When a partisan encounters negative information, it can often trigger the emotional equivalent of a fight-or-flight response. This applies not just to negative arguments but also to negative facts. To deal with the emotional response, we seek different arguments and alternative facts.

Is there bad polling news? Let me find the piece that’s going to explain all the sampling errors. An Israeli strike might have killed dozens of civilians? Here’s a social media thread about how Israel’s rules of engagement are more restrictive than America’s. Did I read that pro-Palestinian demonstrators were physically intimidating Jewish students? Here’s a video of a peaceful teach-in at the same campus, and how dare you paint the protesters with a broad brush. Most voters think Biden is too old to be president? Have you seen the latest video of Trump slurring his words?

If you are a true partisan, you essentially become an unpaid lawyer for your side. Every “good” fact that bolsters your argument is magnified. Every “bad” fact is minimized or rationalized. When partisanship reaches its worst point, every positive claim about your side is automatically believed, and every negative allegation is automatically disbelieved. In fact, allegations of wrongdoing directed at your side are treated as acts of aggression — proof that “they” are trying to destroy “us.”

You see this reality most plainly in the daily Republican theatrics surrounding Trump’s criminal indictments. Rather than wrestle seriously with the profoundly troubling claims against him, they treat the criminal cases as proof of Democratic perfidy. They believe every claim against Hunter and Joe Biden and not a single claim against Trump.

The result is a kind of divorce from reality. It’s a process that my Dispatch colleague Jonah Goldberg memorably described in 2016 as “the invasion of the body snatchers.” “Someone you know or love goes to sleep one night,” he wrote, “and appears the next day to be the exact same person you always knew. Except. Except they’re different, somehow.”

It’s easy to blame the exhausted majority for checking out. We have obligations as citizens to cast informed votes, even as we juggle the professional and domestic responsibilities of our busy lives. But we also need to ask why people are checking out, and one reason is that partisans make it so very difficult to engage.

The problem is most pronounced (and often overtly threatening) on the MAGA right, but it’s endemic to our partisan wings. In 2020, for example, how many regular people were absolutely pummeled online and in person for suggesting that perhaps defunding the police wasn’t a good idea? In 2021, if you were on the right and weren’t persuaded that critical race theory was a clear and present danger to your child’s education, you were immediately scorned as weak or soft and unable to discern “what time it is.”

Then, as partisanship deepens, partisan subcultures can get increasingly weird. They become so convinced of the us-versus-them dynamic that they’ll eventually believe virtually anything, as long as it’s a claim against the other side. MAGA’s Taylor Swift conspiracies, in which her popularity is some sort of liberal psyop, and election denial conspiracies sprang from the same poisonous partisan well. If decades of partisanship have persuaded you that your opponents are evil, have no morals and want to destroy the country, then why wouldn’t they hack voting machines or recruit a pop star as a government asset?

George Orwell famously wrote that “to see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” We can’t simply tut-tut against the pernicious effects of pure partisanship; we have to struggle against it, including within ourselves. I have some rules to help temper my worst partisan impulses. Among them: Expose yourself to the best of the other side’s point of view — including the best essays, podcasts and books. Also, when you encounter a new idea, learn about it from its proponents before you read its opponents.

And when you encounter bad news about a cause that you hold dear — whether it’s a presidential campaign, an international conflict or even a claim against a person you admire, take a close and careful look at the evidence. Your opponent may be right, your friend may be wrong, and your emotions will often lead you astray."
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 7:02 am You see this reality most plainly in the daily Republican theatrics surrounding Trump’s criminal indictments. Rather than wrestle seriously with the profoundly troubling claims against him, they treat the criminal cases as proof of Democratic perfidy. They believe every claim against Hunter and Joe Biden and not a single claim against Trump.

They must have been reading this forum over the last decade........
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

a fan wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 11:23 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 7:02 am You see this reality most plainly in the daily Republican theatrics surrounding Trump’s criminal indictments. Rather than wrestle seriously with the profoundly troubling claims against him, they treat the criminal cases as proof of Democratic perfidy. They believe every claim against Hunter and Joe Biden and not a single claim against Trump.

They must have been reading this forum over the last decade........
We all reduce the undesirable characteristics of the folks we support -- that's a given in a world where none of us is perfect, and where politicians tend to be a grasping, sociopathic group of people. But the willingness of the GOP to fold up its character-test card over these last seven or eight years is astounding, really unprecedented in my lifetime (I'm 64), and profoundly corrosive to the country's well-being and institutions. There is, in this respect, no real equivalence between the parties; the GOP wins the soulless race to the bottom. But, you know, gays are bad, so....
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 11:35 am
a fan wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 11:23 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 7:02 am You see this reality most plainly in the daily Republican theatrics surrounding Trump’s criminal indictments. Rather than wrestle seriously with the profoundly troubling claims against him, they treat the criminal cases as proof of Democratic perfidy. They believe every claim against Hunter and Joe Biden and not a single claim against Trump.

They must have been reading this forum over the last decade........
We all reduce the undesirable characteristics of the folks we support -- that's a given in a world where none of us is perfect, and where politicians tend to be a grasping, sociopathic group of people.
A. we didn't use to do that. When Reagan got caught, for example, in Iran Contra? His favorability ratings fell off a cliff.

Now? No matter what a R does, the R base supports them. This is NEW, and is because of compartmentalized media, spoon feeding them what they want to hear.

This rightwing media push made ENTIRELY by 1%ers who make money off of keep their viewers angry, and lying to them. So these viewers wind up pretending to believe things they don't really believe.

They don't REALLY believe a POTUS is above the law. They don't REALLY believe that the FBI and DoJ shouldn't investigate Congress, Judges, and the Exec branch for corruption. They don't REALLY believe socialism is bad....they LOVE socialism, and demonstrate this love every football Saturday as the cheer on their local Government-owned-and-operated College Football team. They don't REALLY care what gay people do. They don't REALLY care if anyone wears a mask (I mean, come on....).

This is the same disingenuous virtue signaling the far left does. And as I've said a million times, the far left is the same thing as the far left. It's why both are anti semitic, for example, albeit for different reasons....they both land in the same space.

B. this isn't something other 1st world countries do. They hold the party they support and voted for accountable. This is a very new, very American problem that is in DIRE need of fixing.

Dems like you, for example, need to hold Biden accountable for not dumping Trump's 1%er corporate tax breaks. So long as you and the R supporters play the "at least he's better than the other guy" game, and let everything your party does slide? Our country will continue to spiral, with more and more money and power flowing away from the working class, and toward the 1%ers.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

"Dems like me" are not 100% happy with Biden, and don't pretend to be. But it is a reality that one candidate and one party are still interested in democracy, an unfettered right to vote, the rule of law and other outdated stuff like that. The GOP has rejected democracy; this is the lesson of the current rigid litmus test of election denial with which the GOP is riven. This is the lesson of the toadying serfs who pose as Congressmen and Senators and provide emotional support visits to (and stand for photo ops at) the NY criminal courts. And it is silly and against all of the factual evidence of your eyes not to concede as much. Again, even in view of the problems with which the Democratic Party lives, there is simply no equivalence to the blind, bizarre, "misinformed and not caring about it" GOP rank and file, and their "leaders" in the Congress.
a fan
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Re: 2024

Post by a fan »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 12:34 pm "Dems like me" are not 100% happy with Biden, and don't pretend to be. But it is a reality that one candidate and one party are still interested in democracy, an unfettered right to vote, the rule of law and other outdated stuff like that. The GOP has rejected democracy; this is the lesson of the current rigid litmus test of election denial with which the GOP is riven. This is the lesson of the toadying serfs who pose as Congressmen and Senators and provide emotional support visits to (and stand for photo ops at) the NY criminal courts. And it is silly and against all of the factual evidence of your eyes not to concede as much. Again, even in view of the problems with which the Democratic Party lives, there is simply no equivalence to the blind, bizarre, "misinformed and not caring about it" GOP rank and file, and their "leaders" in the Congress.
You're talking about the election this fall.

I'm talking about while he's in charge the last 3+ years, and demanding better. What's the point of being in a political party if you don't make your voice known? It's not like you get 10% off Starbucks purchases for being a Dem. The ENTIRE point behind being in a political party is to have contacts that hear your voice.

Because if you're not going to do that? Be an Indie like me. We're the folks both parties are trying to court.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Trump's real legacy and gift to the country: violent words and imagery, and political violence itself, mainstreamed:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/19/us/p ... lence.html

"One Friday last month, Jamie Raskin, a Democratic congressman from Maryland, spent a chunk of his day in court securing a protective order.

It was not his first. Mr. Raskin, who played a leading role in Donald J. Trump’s second impeachment hearing, said he received about 50 menacing calls, emails and letters every month that are turned over to the Capitol Police.

His latest court visit was prompted by a man who showed up at his house and screamed in his face about the Covid-19 vaccine, Mr. Trump’s impeachment and gender-related surgeries. Nearly two years earlier, the same man, with his 3-year-old son in his arms, had yelled profanities at Mr. Raskin at a July 4 parade, according to a police report.

“I told the judge I don’t care about him getting jail time. He just needs some parenting lessons,” Mr. Raskin said.

Mr. Raskin was far from the only government official staring down the uglier side of public service in America in recent weeks. Since late March, bomb threats closed libraries in Durham, N.C.; Reading, Mass.; and Lancaster, Pa., and suspended operations at a courthouse in Franklin County, Pa. In Bakersfield, Calif., an activist protesting the war in Gaza was arrested after telling City Council members: “We’ll see you at your house. We’ll murder you.”

A Florida man was sentenced to 14 months in prison for leaving a voice mail message promising to “come kill” Chief Justice John Roberts.

And Mr. Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, refused to rule out violence if he were to lose in November. “It always depends on the fairness of the election,” he said in an interview late last month.

This was just a typical month in American public life, where a steady undercurrent of violence and physical risk has become a new normal. From City Hall to Congress, public officials increasingly describe threats and harassment as a routine part of their jobs. Often masked by online anonymity and propelled by extreme political views, the barrage of menace has changed how public officials do their work, terrified their families and driven some from public life altogether.

By almost all measures, the evidence of the trend is striking. Last year, more than 450 federal judges were targeted with threats, a roughly 150 percent increase from 2019, according to the United States Marshals Service. The U.S. Capitol Police investigated more than 8,000 threats to members of Congress last year, up more than 50 percent from 2018. The agency recently added three full-time prosecutors to handle the volume.

More than 80 percent of local officials said they had been threatened or harassed, according to a survey conducted in 2021 by the National League of Cities.

“People are threatening not just the prosecutor, the special counsel, the judge but also family members,” said Ronald L. Davis, director of the U.S. Marshals Service. Lisa Monaco, the deputy attorney general, said she saw “an environment where disagreement is increasingly tipping over” into “violent threats.”

It is still rare for those threats to tip into action, experts said, but such instances have increased. Some capture national attention for weeks. The mass shootings at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh in 2018 and the Tops Friendly supermarket in Buffalo in 2022 were both carried out by perpetrators who expressed extreme right-wing views. Trump supporters’ riot at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, was one of the largest acts of political violence in modern American history.

Others — including an Ohio man’s shootout with state troopers after the F.B.I. searched Mr. Trump’s home and shootings at the homes of Democratic officials in New Mexico — fall out of the headlines quickly.

Surveys have found increasing public support for politicized violence among both Republicans and Democrats in recent years. A study released last fall by the University of California, Davis, found that nearly one in three respondents considered violence justified to advance some political objectives, including “to stop an election from being stolen.”

“Although actual acts of political violence in America are still quite low compared to some other countries, we’re now in a position where there has been enough violence that the threats are credible,” said Rachel Kleinfeld, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who studies political violence.

Violence — and the threat of it — has been a part of American politics since the nation’s founding. But experts describe this moment as particularly volatile, thanks in great part to social media platforms that can amplify anonymous outrage, spread misinformation and conspiracy theories and turn a little-known public employee into a target.

No politician has harnessed the ferocious power of those platforms like Mr. Trump. The former president has long used personal attacks as a strategy to intimidate his adversaries. As he campaigns to return to the White House, he has turned that tactic on the judges and prosecutors involved in his various legal cases, all of whom have subsequently been threatened.

Democrats by and large have been the loudest voices in trying to quell political violence, although many on the right have accused them of insufficiently condemning unruly left-wing protesters on college campuses and at the homes of Supreme Court justices. After Senator Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York, warned in 2020 that Supreme Court justices would “pay the price” if they eliminated federal abortion rights, Chief Justice Roberts called the statement “dangerous.”

Researchers say the climate of intimidation is thriving on political division and distrust, and feeding off other social ills — including mental illness, addiction and prejudice. Women are more commonly threatened than men, as are people of color, according to a Princeton University survey of local officials.

There is little research on the political views of those behind the onslaught of abuse. Some surveys show that Republican officeholders are more likely to report being targeted, often from members of their own party. Research does show, however, that recent acts of political violence are more likely to be carried out by perpetrators aligned with right-wing causes and beliefs.

Public officials at all levels are changing how they do their jobs in response. Many report feeling less willing to run again or seek higher office, and some are reluctant to take on controversial issues. Turnover among election workers has spiked since 2020; even librarians describe feeling vulnerable.

“These attacks are not coming from people who are looking for solutions,” said Clarence Anthony, the executive director of the National League of Cities. “They’re looking for confrontation.”

Joe Chimenti started getting death threats about a year after he took office as chairman of the board of supervisors in Shasta County, Calif., in 2019. The normally sleepy county in Northern California had been thrown into tumult by a wave of anti-government sentiment that started with the coronavirus pandemic. It grew worse after Mr. Trump falsely claimed that the 2020 election had been stolen.

Tired of violent threats and constant disruptions at meetings, Mr. Chimenti, a Republican, decided not to run for a second term. Elected in his place was a man who had repeated conspiracy theories about voting machines and who tried to hire a county executive who had called on Shasta County to secede from California.

Mr. Chimenti said he’d had enough of the abuse. “I got into this to make a difference, but I thought, Why do I want to put up with this?”

‘I Just Don’t Answer My Phone'

Fred Upton, who served as a Republican representative from Michigan for 36 years, was used to taking heat from the public. But he had never experienced anything like the backlash from his decision to vote to impeach Mr. Trump for his role in the Jan. 6 Capitol attack.

He received so many threats that he asked the local police to set up motion-activated cameras outside his home in Michigan. He installed panic buttons in his district offices and stopped notifying the public in advance of his speaking engagements. He also added a second exit door to his House office in Washington in case he or his staff needed to escape from an intruder.

After he voted in favor of President Biden’s infrastructure bill in late 2021, Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, a fellow Republican, called him a traitor and posted his office number on her social media accounts.

“I hope you die,” one caller said in a voice mail message he received soon after. “I hope everybody in your [expletive] family dies.”

When Mr. Upton left office after his district was redrawn, he assumed the threats would stop. But he continues to receive menacing calls and letters at his home in Western Michigan.

“I just don’t answer my phone anymore, ever,” he said.

Political violence in American is not new. Left-wing activists set off bombs in the Capitol in 1983 and in 1971; five lawmakers were shot by Puerto Rican nationalists in the House chamber in 1954; a pro-German professor planted a bomb in a Senate reception room in 1915. Four presidents have been assassinated.

For decades after the Civil War, it was common for white Southerners to threaten Republican lawmakers, said Kate Masur, a professor of history at Northwestern University. “It’s hard for us to imagine how violent the United States was in the 19th century.”

But researchers view the internet as a new accelerant. Nearly three-quarters of all threats are not made in person, according to a recent Princeton analysis, making it difficult for law enforcement to identify the source.

Technology has facilitated other forms of often-anonymous harassment as well. “Swatting” — making hoax 911 calls designed to set off a police response to a target’s home — has become more common, with a spate of recent incidents involving lawmakers, mayors, judges and the special counsel investigating Mr. Trump. In January, Jay Ashcroft, the Republican secretary of state in Missouri, was ordered from his house at gunpoint by armed officers responding to a bogus call that there had been a shooting at his home. No one has been charged in the event.

“Doxxing,” or publishing personal information online — thus giving people an opportunity to harass or threaten — has been used against a wide range of public officials and even jurors in the Trump cases.

For federal lawmakers, the prospect of physical harm has long been part of the job — one that was painfully illustrated by the shooting in 2011 that gravely wounded Gabby Giffords, then an Arizona congresswoman, and by the assault on the Republican congressional baseball team in 2017 by a gunman upset by Mr. Trump’s election. On Friday, the man who had broken into the home of Nancy Pelosi, the former House speaker, and bludgeoned her husband with a hammer was sentenced to 30 years in prison.

Many public officials say they have become accustomed to managing their fears and insist they are not affected. But there is evidence that the threats and intimidation can influence decisions.

Senator Mitt Romney, a Republican from Utah who is retiring at the end of this year, told a biographer that some G.O.P. lawmakers voted not to impeach and convict Mr. Trump after the Jan. 6 attack because they were afraid for their safety if they crossed his supporters. Mr. Romney did not identify the legislators by name and declined an interview for this article.

Andrew Hitt, the former head of the Republican Party in Wisconsin, agreed to go along with the Trump campaign’s failed scheme to overturn the 2020 election because he was “scared to death,” he told “60 Minutes.”

“It was not a safe time,” he said.

‘Who Is the WORST?’

Four days after Mr. Trump was indicted in August in a federal election interference case, the presiding judge, Tanya S. Chutkan, received an alarming voice mail message at her chambers.

“If Trump doesn’t get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you,” the caller said, according to court documents.

Investigators tracked the message to Abigail Jo Shry, a 43-year-old Texas woman who was already facing state charges related to similar threats against two Texas state senators, a Democrat and a Republican.

Ms. Shry has a history of drug and alcohol abuse and “gets all her information from the internet,” her father testified. “You can get anything you want to off the internet. And, you know, it will work you up.” (Ms. Shry’s lawyer declined to comment.)

Mr. Trump has been relentless in attacking the judges overseeing the criminal and civil cases that have confronted him of late. Last month, he asked, “Who is the WORST, most EVIL and most CORRUPT JUDGE?” in a social media post that named the judges.

They are being inundated. At least three of them, including Judge Chutkan, have been swatted. In February, a woman was sentenced to three years in prison for threatening Judge Aileen Cannon, who is overseeing the federal criminal case against Mr. Trump involving mishandling classified documents.

Last month, a resident of Lancaster, N.Y., pleaded guilty to making death threats against Judge Arthur F. Engoron, who presided over a civil fraud trial against Mr. Trump in Manhattan this year, as well as threats against Letitia James, the New York attorney general, who brought the case.

The judges have been clear that Mr. Trump’s posts make an impact. “When defendant has publicly attacked individuals, including on matters related to this case, those individuals are consequently threatened and harassed,” Judge Chutkan wrote in a gag order trying to limit Mr. Trump’s public remarks.

The prospect of being a target for abuse has already deterred some from participating in cases involving Mr. Trump. During a February court hearing in Atlanta, former Gov. Roy Barnes of Georgia, a Democrat, said that Fani T. Willis, the district attorney of Fulton County, had asked him to lead the prosecution of Mr. Trump for election interference in Georgia.

Mr. Barnes declined, explaining: “I wasn’t going to live with bodyguards for the rest of my life.”

Ms. Willis has left her home amid threats, and the county pays about $4,000 a month for her new housing. Her staff was outfitted with bulletproof vests. This month, a Californian was indicted after threatening in the comment section of a YouTube video to kill her “like a dog.”

Intimidation Close to Home

Local officials are feeling the pressure.

Election officials — from secretaries of state to poll workers — have faced hostility and abuse after Mr. Trump’s false claims of fraud in the 2020 election, leading to resignations and difficulty recruiting and retaining staff members and volunteers. Such threats “endanger our democracy itself,” Attorney General Merrick Garland said this week.

Local libraries have also become targets amid a heated campaign to ban books and cancel events aimed at members of the L.G.B.T.Q. community. Bomb threats were reported by 32 of the American Library Association’s member institutions last year, compared with two the year before and none in 2021.

Carolyn Foote, a retired librarian in Austin, Texas, who co-founded a group that supports librarians, said her members had become used to being called “pedophile, groomer, pornographer.”

Proving that ugly and hostile language has crossed the line from First Amendment-protected speech to credible threat can be difficult. Experts say prosecutions became even harder last year after the Supreme Court raised the bar for what qualifies as a credible threat, ruling that the person making the threat has to “have some subjective understanding of the threatening nature of his statements.”

In Bakersfield, Calif., a lawyer for Riddhi Patel, the activist who spoke of murdering City Council members after urging them to take up a Gaza cease-fire resolution, said her statement was not a crime. She has pleaded not guilty to 21 felony charges.

“It’s clear that this was not a true criminal threat, which under California law must be, among other things, credible, specific, immediate and unconditional,” said Peter Kang, the public defender of Kern County, which includes Bakersfield. “Instead, what we hear are Ms. Patel’s strong, passionate expressions, which fall within the bounds of constitutionally protected speech.”

Local officials say they have become accustomed to dealing with vitriol and anger that they can do little about. In Nevada County, Calif., Natalie Adona, the county clerk and recorder, said employees received a barrage of threats in 2020 from people who did not accept the election results, and again in 2022 over a mask mandate.

Ms. Adona said the county secured a restraining order against one of three people who forced their way into the building. But her staff has had to learn to endure and defuse confrontations.

“A lot of what we have experienced falls into this gray area,” Ms. Adona said. “It makes you look over your shoulder.”
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

But, his policies....
Typical Lax Dad
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: 2024

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: 2024

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
User avatar
youthathletics
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Re: 2024

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 5:03 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
Ain't that the thing you pop on your face when your 14? My bad, those were ZITS....😜
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 5:03 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
I do know where the slang term pipple came from. I refrain from enlightening everyone because it may induce an aneurysm in MD lax fan. :D
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
User avatar
youthathletics
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Re: 2024

Post by youthathletics »

cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:10 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 5:03 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
I do know where the slang term pipple came from. I refrain from enlightening everyone because it may induce an aneurysm in MD lax fan. :D
I might be having a nervous breakdown b/c he posted without spell checking, he's accustomed to correcting all of us. ;) :lol: :lol:
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
User avatar
cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:21 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:10 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 5:03 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
I do know where the slang term pipple came from. I refrain from enlightening everyone because it may induce an aneurysm in MD lax fan. :D
I might be having a nervous breakdown b/c he posted without spell checking, he's accustomed to correcting all of us. ;) :lol: :lol:
Our good friend would correct everyone on the planet if any sane person would pay attention to him. Fortunately there are more sane people on this forum than there are of left wing lying liberal faux life long Republicans.
I have seen the video of those NYC police officers having the chit beat out of them by a new gaggle of beloved illegal immigrants that our favorite lying faux Republican admirer so dearly loves Ignore what your eyes tell you at your own risk. When your very first actions in your beloved new home involve beating up law enforcement officers.. that should be a red flag that a color blind person on this forum will never comprehend. Too busy chasing those WNC from behind the bushes in his backyard. :lol: FTR....no I didn't read your response or any links you may post. Your an embarrassment enough to any Republican who isn't a blue blood candy ass Rockefeller type like you. So tell us all again why the party you have dedicated your life to wouldn't be caught dead in the same room as you. ;) Your right and everybody else is wrong. :roll: Stop your bullchit and admit your a Democrat. Your not fooling anyone. There is no shame in bailing on the party you have so much contempt for. I'm sure every Republican will give you the same advice.
DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ASS on your way out. :D
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
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Re: 2024

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:21 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:10 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 5:03 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
I do know where the slang term pipple came from. I refrain from enlightening everyone because it may induce an aneurysm in MD lax fan. :D
I might be having a nervous breakdown b/c he posted without spell checking, he's accustomed to correcting all of us. ;) :lol: :lol:
Do you know? If it wasn't a reference to Trump's expression, Queens accent, "I hire the best 'pipple'", feel free to enlighten me.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
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Re: 2024

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 9:11 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:21 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 6:10 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 5:03 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 12:49 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:41 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:26 am
But, his policies....
Birds of a feather.
All the best pipple.
What is pipple? ;)
I do know where the slang term pipple came from. I refrain from enlightening everyone because it may induce an aneurysm in MD lax fan. :D
I might be having a nervous breakdown b/c he posted without spell checking, he's accustomed to correcting all of us. ;) :lol: :lol:
Do you know? If it wasn't a reference to Trump's expression, Queens accent, "I hire the best 'pipple'", feel free to enlighten me.
No way Jose.. you can't handle the truth. Your good at researching stuff. Try doing a Google search I recommend wrapping your head in Gorilla tape first. If you happen to find the answer it won't be pretty.🤪
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
Seacoaster(1)
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: 2024

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Another moment of candor and reflection. Note Don Jr. and -- believe it or not -- the Lt. Governor of Texas, over his shoulders.

https://x.com/Acyn/status/1793022968639221809
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