Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26188
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:38 pm College educated Americans live on average 8.5 years longer than those without college degrees. No other "wealthy nation" experiences this phenomenon.
What I found interesting is that nothing in this entire paper referenced military. I even queried the term military, war, defense.....no mention, anywhere. Not undermining the study at all, but I tend to seek what else are we missing....my career demands seeking anomalies, outliers, and cause.

There most certainly should have been a data point to align there data with this cohort....my guess is that will account for a major part of the gap, specifically since 2001 and current.

I wonder if the BA also ate more fruits and veggies vs Funyons and Cigs. ;)
That's the only thing you found interesting?

What is your specific hypothesis re military?

I may be imagining it incorrectly, but if you are saying that the gap widened since 2001 because there were more military service members experiencing various traumas as well as death to such an extent that it moved the needle hugely versus prior periods of military service AND that military service members are disproportionately without a BA, or that those without BA's disproportionately experienced such traumas, then we would want to at least have some numerical tests to see if that's plausible, right?

We know for instance that military service members commit suicide at a higher rate at a young age versus gen pop...but are these numbers significant, large enough to explain much of this widening gap? Certainly during the Vietnam era one could say there was a high casualty rate of death and injury, and an uncounted mental injury rate as well...but that was a much, much worse period than 2001 forward, right?

Yes, those without BA's make different lifestyle choices. Lots of data on this. Nutrition, exercise, smoking, alcohol and drug addiction all much worse with less education. Educational attainment correlates closely with poverty. Higher stress levels, all sorts of insecurity measures.

In my world of nutrition in specific, food 'deserts' and 'swamps' are the reality for many located in areas with low educational attainment levels, both rural and urban. Low access to healthy foods at affordable prices, while unhealthy food is readily accessible at a cost that temporarily satisfies hunger but not nutritional value.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14960
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:50 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:38 pm College educated Americans live on average 8.5 years longer than those without college degrees. No other "wealthy nation" experiences this phenomenon.
What I found interesting is that nothing in this entire paper referenced military. I even queried the term military, war, defense.....no mention, anywhere. Not undermining the study at all, but I tend to seek what else are we missing....my career demands seeking anomalies, outliers, and cause.

There most certainly should have been a data point to align there data with this cohort....my guess is that will account for a major part of the gap, specifically since 2001 and current.

I wonder if the BA also ate more fruits and veggies vs Funyons and Cigs. ;)
That's the only thing you found interesting?

What is your specific hypothesis re military?

I may be imagining it incorrectly, but if you are saying that the gap widened since 2001 because there were more military service members experiencing various traumas as well as death to such an extent that it moved the needle hugely versus prior periods of military service AND that military service members are disproportionately without a BA, or that those without BA's disproportionately experienced such traumas, then we would want to at least have some numerical tests to see if that's plausible, right?

We know for instance that military service members commit suicide at a higher rate at a young age versus gen pop...but are these numbers significant, large enough to explain much of this widening gap? Certainly during the Vietnam era one could say there was a high casualty rate of death and injury, and an uncounted mental injury rate as well...but that was a much, much worse period than 2001 forward, right?

Yes, those without BA's make different lifestyle choices. Lots of data on this. Nutrition, exercise, smoking, alcohol and drug addiction all much worse with less education. Educational attainment correlates closely with poverty. Higher stress levels, all sorts of insecurity measures.

In my world of nutrition in specific, food 'deserts' and 'swamps' are the reality for many located in areas with low educational attainment levels, both rural and urban. Low access to healthy foods at affordable prices, while unhealthy food is readily accessible at a cost that temporarily satisfies hunger but not nutritional value.
Thanks for agreeing the bold is my entire point and yet (crickets on their part)......a study of this magnitude should have certainly included the military service cohort.

A 10 second query on their part would have shown an almost doubling in deaths by military members....as recently as 2006. I can certainly dig deeper to 1990 when their study started. However, let's be clear, the 20 year GWOT took its toll, rather significantly on our military men and woman.....an
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
jhu72
Posts: 14050
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by jhu72 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 8:47 am The Two Americas and How the Nation’s Elite Is Out of Touch with Average Americans

The people who run America, or at least think they do, live in a bubble of their own construction. They’ve isolated themselves from everyday America’s realities to such a degree their views about what is and what should be happening in this country differ widely from the average American’s. An analysis of their thinking, conducted for the Committee to Unleash Prosperity, finds that on a variety of economic, social, and political issues, there exists a wide gap between how the top 1% – the Elites – think things should be and how the rest of America looks at them.

https://committeetounleashprosperity.co ... -FINAL.pdf
... doesn't this mean the average Americans (under educated, a better descriptive) is out of touch with the educated elites as well?? No bias in the perspective of this study. :roll:
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
jhu72
Posts: 14050
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by jhu72 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:50 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:38 pm College educated Americans live on average 8.5 years longer than those without college degrees. No other "wealthy nation" experiences this phenomenon.
What I found interesting is that nothing in this entire paper referenced military. I even queried the term military, war, defense.....no mention, anywhere. Not undermining the study at all, but I tend to seek what else are we missing....my career demands seeking anomalies, outliers, and cause.

There most certainly should have been a data point to align there data with this cohort....my guess is that will account for a major part of the gap, specifically since 2001 and current.

I wonder if the BA also ate more fruits and veggies vs Funyons and Cigs. ;)
That's the only thing you found interesting?

What is your specific hypothesis re military?

I may be imagining it incorrectly, but if you are saying that the gap widened since 2001 because there were more military service members experiencing various traumas as well as death to such an extent that it moved the needle hugely versus prior periods of military service AND that military service members are disproportionately without a BA, or that those without BA's disproportionately experienced such traumas, then we would want to at least have some numerical tests to see if that's plausible, right?

We know for instance that military service members commit suicide at a higher rate at a young age versus gen pop...but are these numbers significant, large enough to explain much of this widening gap? Certainly during the Vietnam era one could say there was a high casualty rate of death and injury, and an uncounted mental injury rate as well...but that was a much, much worse period than 2001 forward, right?

Yes, those without BA's make different lifestyle choices. Lots of data on this. Nutrition, exercise, smoking, alcohol and drug addiction all much worse with less education. Educational attainment correlates closely with poverty. Higher stress levels, all sorts of insecurity measures.

In my world of nutrition in specific, food 'deserts' and 'swamps' are the reality for many located in areas with low educational attainment levels, both rural and urban. Low access to healthy foods at affordable prices, while unhealthy food is readily accessible at a cost that temporarily satisfies hunger but not nutritional value.
Thanks for agreeing the bold is my entire point and yet (crickets on their part)......a study of this magnitude should have certainly included the military service cohort.

A 10 second query on their part would have shown an almost doubling in deaths by military members....as recently as 2006. I can certainly dig deeper to 1990 when their study started. However, let's be clear, the 20 year GWOT took its toll, rather significantly on our military men and woman.....an
... it is more complicated. Read the abstract from the research paper and apply brain.
ABSTRACT We examine mortality differences between Americans adults with and without a
four-year college degree over the period 1992 to 2021. Mortality patterns, in aggregate and
across groups, can provide evidence on how well society is functioning, information that goes
beyond aggregate measures of material wellbeing. From 1992 to 2010, both educational groups
saw falling mortality, but with greater improvements for the more educated; from 2010 to 2019,
mortality continued to fall for those with a BA while rising for those without; during the COVID
pandemic, mortality rose for both groups, but markedly more rapidly for the less educated. In
consequence, the mortality gap between the two groups expanded in all three periods, leading to
an 8.5-year difference in adult life expectancy by the end of 2021. There have been dramatic
changes in patterns of mortality since 1992, but gaps rose consistently in each of thirteen broad
classifications of cause of death. We document rising gaps in other wellbeing-relevant measures,
background factors to the rising gap in mortality, including morbidity, social isolation, marriage,
family income, and wealth.
... the period from 2010 to 2019 is the most relevant to the discussion - the divergence was the most obvious, one group (BA) with falling mortality and the other with rising mortality. During other periods the mortality for both groups was moving in the same direction, but in a better fashion for the BA group. During the period 2010 to 2019 the life expectancy for the country went from a positive trend to a negative trend, starting in 2014 the average life expectancy in the US began to decline and continued to do so until 2019. This was not COVID, it was the increase drug problem among the white working class, Fentanyl, etc. 2018 was the first year in which Fentanyl overdose cases declined.

CDC Life Expectancy Statistics ... adjust the graph on this page to show the period 2013 to 2024 to get an up close of the changes in life expectancy. Set the data period inputs at the top of the graph.
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26188
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:50 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:38 pm College educated Americans live on average 8.5 years longer than those without college degrees. No other "wealthy nation" experiences this phenomenon.
What I found interesting is that nothing in this entire paper referenced military. I even queried the term military, war, defense.....no mention, anywhere. Not undermining the study at all, but I tend to seek what else are we missing....my career demands seeking anomalies, outliers, and cause.

There most certainly should have been a data point to align there data with this cohort....my guess is that will account for a major part of the gap, specifically since 2001 and current.

I wonder if the BA also ate more fruits and veggies vs Funyons and Cigs. ;)
That's the only thing you found interesting?

What is your specific hypothesis re military?

I may be imagining it incorrectly, but if you are saying that the gap widened since 2001 because there were more military service members experiencing various traumas as well as death to such an extent that it moved the needle hugely versus prior periods of military service AND that military service members are disproportionately without a BA, or that those without BA's disproportionately experienced such traumas, then we would want to at least have some numerical tests to see if that's plausible, right?

We know for instance that military service members commit suicide at a higher rate at a young age versus gen pop...but are these numbers significant, large enough to explain much of this widening gap? Certainly during the Vietnam era one could say there was a high casualty rate of death and injury, and an uncounted mental injury rate as well...but that was a much, much worse period than 2001 forward, right?

Yes, those without BA's make different lifestyle choices. Lots of data on this. Nutrition, exercise, smoking, alcohol and drug addiction all much worse with less education. Educational attainment correlates closely with poverty. Higher stress levels, all sorts of insecurity measures.

In my world of nutrition in specific, food 'deserts' and 'swamps' are the reality for many located in areas with low educational attainment levels, both rural and urban. Low access to healthy foods at affordable prices, while unhealthy food is readily accessible at a cost that temporarily satisfies hunger but not nutritional value.
Thanks for agreeing the bold is my entire point and yet (crickets on their part)......a study of this magnitude should have certainly included the military service cohort.

A 10 second query on their part would have shown an almost doubling in deaths by military members....as recently as 2006. I can certainly dig deeper to 1990 when their study started. However, let's be clear, the 20 year GWOT took its toll, rather significantly on our military men and woman.....an
JHU72 responded to one part, so I won't.

However, I agree that a study that looked at whether military service in one period or another was an additional factor in mortality would be interesting (seems obvious to me that it's plausible, indeed likely). But way, way more people would have had to have been involved to be able to move the needle at all much with regards to this overall difference between these groups which was the question being asked in this study. Just way too small a fraction of the population to make that impact. But a serious different question, certainly.

If we were really interested in teasing out this question from the data, what would our hypothesis be? That military service in combat zones, holding all else equal, increased mortality? We know that answer, it does. So, we might be interested in whether having a BA would lessen that mortality impact versus not having a BA...did non-BA's do increasingly worse than those with BA's like the rest of the population did over the past decade? Or did they both fare so poorly that the positive impact of education was muted?

My hunch? Military service impacted, but the gap that widened is likely similar to general population. For the same reasons.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14960
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by youthathletics »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 11:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 10:50 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:10 am
jhu72 wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 3:38 pm College educated Americans live on average 8.5 years longer than those without college degrees. No other "wealthy nation" experiences this phenomenon.
What I found interesting is that nothing in this entire paper referenced military. I even queried the term military, war, defense.....no mention, anywhere. Not undermining the study at all, but I tend to seek what else are we missing....my career demands seeking anomalies, outliers, and cause.

There most certainly should have been a data point to align there data with this cohort....my guess is that will account for a major part of the gap, specifically since 2001 and current.

I wonder if the BA also ate more fruits and veggies vs Funyons and Cigs. ;)
That's the only thing you found interesting?

What is your specific hypothesis re military?

I may be imagining it incorrectly, but if you are saying that the gap widened since 2001 because there were more military service members experiencing various traumas as well as death to such an extent that it moved the needle hugely versus prior periods of military service AND that military service members are disproportionately without a BA, or that those without BA's disproportionately experienced such traumas, then we would want to at least have some numerical tests to see if that's plausible, right?

We know for instance that military service members commit suicide at a higher rate at a young age versus gen pop...but are these numbers significant, large enough to explain much of this widening gap? Certainly during the Vietnam era one could say there was a high casualty rate of death and injury, and an uncounted mental injury rate as well...but that was a much, much worse period than 2001 forward, right?

Yes, those without BA's make different lifestyle choices. Lots of data on this. Nutrition, exercise, smoking, alcohol and drug addiction all much worse with less education. Educational attainment correlates closely with poverty. Higher stress levels, all sorts of insecurity measures.

In my world of nutrition in specific, food 'deserts' and 'swamps' are the reality for many located in areas with low educational attainment levels, both rural and urban. Low access to healthy foods at affordable prices, while unhealthy food is readily accessible at a cost that temporarily satisfies hunger but not nutritional value.
Thanks for agreeing the bold is my entire point and yet (crickets on their part)......a study of this magnitude should have certainly included the military service cohort.

A 10 second query on their part would have shown an almost doubling in deaths by military members....as recently as 2006. I can certainly dig deeper to 1990 when their study started. However, let's be clear, the 20 year GWOT took its toll, rather significantly on our military men and woman.....an
JHU72 responded to one part, so I won't.

However, I agree that a study that looked at whether military service in one period or another was an additional factor in mortality would be interesting (seems obvious to me that it's plausible, indeed likely). But way, way more people would have had to have been involved to be able to move the needle at all much with regards to this overall difference between these groups which was the question being asked in this study. Just way too small a fraction of the population to make that impact. But a serious different question, certainly.

If we were really interested in teasing out this question from the data, what would our hypothesis be? That military service in combat zones, holding all else equal, increased mortality? We know that answer, it does. So, we might be interested in whether having a BA would lessen that mortality impact versus not having a BA...did non-BA's do increasingly worse than those with BA's like the rest of the population did over the past decade? Or did they both fare so poorly that the positive impact of education was muted?

My hunch? Military service impacted, but the gap that widened is likely similar to general population. For the same reasons.
We are talking in circles...

My hypotheses has been stated. When you do not account for a cohort that was a MAJOR event in recent history, that falls into their studies timeframe, like a darned 20 year war. And not consider the entirety of its impact and aftermath on people, you are missing a glaring pieces of data.

No need to for a follow up. just ask jhu any further questions....he has all the answers. ;)
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
jhu72
Posts: 14050
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by jhu72 »

... or just read the research article.
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32544
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

jhu72 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:17 pm ... or just read the research article.
:lol:
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14960
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by youthathletics »

jhu72 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:17 pm ... or just read the research article.
...i did.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26188
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:05 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:17 pm ... or just read the research article.
...i did.
hmmm

It ain't like they weren't "included".

But it's a very small fraction of the overall population, so I think your hypothesis of major impact falls flat before takeoff.

Just 1% of adults serve in military and only 15% of those see active combat. You are correct that the vast majority of those men and women, however, did not have a BA prior to service.

It's very important to pay attention to them, but it's not remotely influential on these numbers.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 14346
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:51 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:05 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:17 pm ... or just read the research article.
...i did.
hmmm

It ain't like they weren't "included".

But it's a very small fraction of the overall population, so I think your hypothesis of major impact falls flat before takeoff.

Just 1% of adults serve in military and only 15% of those see active combat. You are correct that the vast majority of those men and women, however, did not have a BA prior to service.

It's very important to pay attention to them, but it's not remotely influential on these numbers.
Dude... If they had a BA they likely wouldn't have enlisted with a combat arms MOS. My socialist sister and I had a legendary argument when I chose the airborne over college. I don't regret my decision and never will. I had the privilege of serving with some of the finest people I have ever known. There was no challenge or mission we undertook that we didn't complete successfully. Blood, sweat and tears is what it took. I know your an expert at digging trenches. Have you ever had to sleep in one in a pouring rain? It gives you a whole new perspective on suck.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32544
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:51 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:05 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:17 pm ... or just read the research article.
...i did.
hmmm

It ain't like they weren't "included".

But it's a very small fraction of the overall population, so I think your hypothesis of major impact falls flat before takeoff.

Just 1% of adults serve in military and only 15% of those see active combat. You are correct that the vast majority of those men and women, however, did not have a BA prior to service.

It's very important to pay attention to them, but it's not remotely influential on these numbers.
https://www.uso.org/stories/2664-milita ... ng-to-help

As I have mentioned, my wife’s cousin was hired by the D.O.D to study this. She’s an economist btw.

Meanwhile in the real world:

https://www.army.mil/article/260633/sol ... population
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
a fan
Posts: 18160
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by a fan »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:56 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:51 pm
youthathletics wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 5:05 pm
jhu72 wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:17 pm ... or just read the research article.
...i did.
hmmm

It ain't like they weren't "included".

But it's a very small fraction of the overall population, so I think your hypothesis of major impact falls flat before takeoff.

Just 1% of adults serve in military and only 15% of those see active combat. You are correct that the vast majority of those men and women, however, did not have a BA prior to service.

It's very important to pay attention to them, but it's not remotely influential on these numbers.
https://www.uso.org/stories/2664-milita ... ng-to-help

As I have mentioned, my wife’s cousin was hired by the D.O.D to study this. She’s an economist btw.

Meanwhile in the real world:

https://www.army.mil/article/260633/sol ... population
And it was far worse before OSHA.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17793
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by old salt »

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine ... ero-module

The Myth of Rural Rage

by ELIZABETH CURRID-HALKETT, May 16, 2024

Red states and small towns are not, in fact, full of hate

Today, talk of a divided America has become a cliché, almost too obvious to remark on. The country’s political geography is now reductively mapped as urban versus rural, the meritocrats versus the uneducated, liberals and the far Left at war with conservatives and the far Right. Much of the polarization argument centers on the belief that liberals and conservatives do not share the same values. According to the standard narrative, rural Americans feel rage and hate toward the liberal elite, and we are hurtling toward another civil war.

But what if, for the vast majority of rural Americans, none of this is true?

I first spoke to Craig Parker, now 72, in the autumn of 2022. Craig is a retired environmental worker, now a tree farmer, who lives in Jesup, Iowa, population 2,806. His great-great-grandfather came to Iowa in 1857, and the family has been there ever since. After our first conversation, Craig sent me a photo of himself with his son and grandchildren riding a green Oliver tractor, a moody sky and vast verdant landscape behind them. “Three generations of Parker men at the tree farm,” Craig wrote.

Over the course of two years, I had many conversations with Craig, a lifelong rural Republican, about his views on America and its hot-button issues. “There should be a way for people to come to this country and follow their dreams and build up,” Craig told me when I asked him about immigration and the infamous wall.

Craig was clear that he’s lived a very fortunate life, but for him privilege isn’t about money and things. He knows he was born into a world where many are not treated equally. “We had a guest pastor and he talked about white privilege. I’d never thought about it that way — a pretty sheltered life. Everyone should have the opportunity to do things for themselves. Nobody should have to sleep in the streets or go home hungry.”

Craig doesn’t own a Whole Foods tote bag, but he is a true conservationist who lives mainly off what he grows on his own land. When I asked him about same-sex marriage, Craig said he “struggles,” given his relationship to Scripture, but believes civil rights should be for everyone. His responses capture the sentiment of dozens of rural Americans I got to know over the past few years while conducting research for my book, The Overlooked Americans. But these aren’t just anecdotes.

Yet you would never know that Craig, or any of the millions of Americans like him, existed if you read many of the recent observations of rural America as a place filled with hate and vitriol. Recently, an academic, accompanied by his journalist co-author, trotted onto MSNBC and denounced rural Americans as “the most racist, xenophobic, anti-immigrant, anti-gay, geodemographic group in the country,” and their book, endorsed by a Nobel Prize–winning economist, became an instant best seller.

In reality, most Americans, in all regions, care about the same things — family, friends, health and happiness, democracy. Rural citizens are more likely to include religion on that list. But according to the University of Chicago’s General Social Survey, even on politically charged issues of racial equality, religion, the environment, and trust in our government, urban and rural Americans largely feel the same way. Statistically, about half of both rural and urban Americans are religious, even if rural Americans are more likely to openly discuss their belief in God. Over half of both rural and urban Americans feel too little is being done to protect the environment. When asked whether they believe government should aid black Americans, rural and urban respondents are similarly supportive. The General Social Survey also reports that rural Americans with less than a high-school education are the most likely group to support preferential hiring of black people.

For years, pundits have issued shrill warnings that rural American voters are at best ignorant of what is best for them and at worst angry and vengeful. In his 2004 book What’s the Matter with Kansas?, Thomas Frank portrayed rural, working-class America’s loyalty to the Republican Party as a form of “derangement.” Every few years a book comes out claiming to reveal the real rural America, as we’ve seen in the condescension of J. D. Vance’s Hillbilly Elegy, the false-consciousness argument in Jonathan Metzl’s Dying of Whiteness, or the mistrust and bitterness described in Katherine Cramer’s Politics of Resentment. Some reporting is more sympathetic than others, but all of it says more or less the same thing in different measures: Rural America is angry. Rural America is backward. Rural America feels left behind. For many liberal academics and journalists, it is simply incomprehensible that the vast majority of rural Americans might actually be content and not resentful of coastal elites — or, perhaps worse, not thinking about coastal elites at all. People like Craig challenge the view that rural America is a monolith of angry, poor racists. I’m here to tell you it’s not.

I’m a university professor who lives in Los Angeles and a lifelong liberal who interned for Senator Hillary Clinton when I was a graduate student at Columbia. I was euphoric when Barack Obama won the presidency and I cried when Hillary Clinton lost. I voted for Biden in 2020 and will vote for Biden again in 2024. I read the New York Times daily and I listen to NPR. But I have a problem with how some in liberal media and academia castigate an entire section of our country. We call Fox News partial (and it is), but media outlets that are supposedly neutral are also partial. The veteran NPR editor Uri Berliner argued in a viral piece in the Free Press that NPR, which is partly government-funded, has an increasingly apparent systemic liberal bias in its news reporting.

You might wonder how I ended up talking to Craig and other rural Americans in the first place. I spent my childhood and adolescence in rural America. I was born in West Virginia and raised in Danville, Pa., a town of about 5,000 people in Montour County, nestled along the Susquehanna River. When Trump won the White House in 2016, liberal elites were convulsing over what they felt was a rural reckoning and an ensuing fracturing of the country. I hadn’t yet met Craig, but I would read the pieces in liberal media about rural revenge, the deepening political divide between city and country, and the anger felt by everyone who had cast a vote for Trump and would often think — know, really, given my background — that this was not an accurate depiction of rural America.

So I used my training as a researcher to uncover the real story. Over the last five years, I have talked to Democrats, Republicans, pro-Trump conservatives, and anti-Trump conservatives, sometimes all in the same day. I have spoken to painters, the unemployed, teachers, farmers, doctors, and nurses. I have listened to a progressive Democrat and a Trump voter who supports election-conspiracy theories — they live down the road from each other in a town of fewer than a thousand. I have talked to wealthy landowners, farmers in the Midwest, and poor people living in desolate parts of Appalachia, some with irregular running water and no grocery store within dozens of miles. In almost 20 years of interviews for my books and academic articles, I have come to learn that it is only when you talk with people for a long time, ask them about their lives, and actually listen that you find who they are and what they want.

When I spoke to Craig and other people in rural America, they weren’t angry at cities or progressives or Democrats. Sure, some fretted about the state of the country or the economy, or had concerns about current policies. Republican voters weren’t satisfied with President Biden, but no one — neither the conspiracy theorist in Kentucky, nor Craig in Iowa, nor the “hard-core Republican” (self-described) in Missouri — expressed vitriol or visceral hatred toward their fellow citizens.

Some I spoke to worried about America’s future, but almost all of them were hopeful and believed life was better now than in previous eras. Even those I interviewed who were economically struggling, coping with drug addiction in the family, or living in food deserts expressed hope and optimism. “When you look at America today, it’s not where we wanted to be, but compared to [the past]?” a man from a Midwest town, population 400, said to me. Comparing the relative peace and prosperity of our time with the Cold War era and economic downturns that previous generations had coped with, he went on: “My life has been a whole lot better than theirs. . . . When you were scared of being blown out of existence, every other person you knew was unemployed? . . . From that perspective, we are a lot better off.”

Most important, almost everyone said they could relate to fellow Americans regardless of whether they live in a city or a small town. “Sure, I could talk to anyone. You’re from California, aren’t you?” Jane from Pennsylvania said with a laugh. “I think there’s crazy people everywhere, and if someone’s culture is different, I want to know about it, I want to hear about it.” This was the general sentiment expressed by almost everyone with whom I spoke, that they could talk to anyone. “I can’t imagine not relating to someone who was also a person,” remarked Clay, a young man from Kentucky. “Being American is enough of a specificity that we had something in common and we could relate to.”

Many months after my initial interviews, as the media continued to foment political division, I emailed my contacts in rural America to ask whether I could talk to them again. Within hours they replied and offered times for me to call. So I asked in one way or another, No, seriously, don’t you hate liberal America a little bit? Aren’t you a little bit angry with Democrats? And their answers remained the same.

“My perspective is they [liberals] hate me with all the vitriol in the world and they assume I hate them,” explained a man from a rural town in Missouri near the Ozarks. “I don’t hate them. . . . Any of them want to have dinner with me, they’re welcome.” A rural Wisconsin man said, “I don’t have hatred about America, there’s just too much going on. People are focusing on themselves as individuals, not what is best for the country.” A woman from Appalachia remarked: “We don’t have to agree on everything to like each other. I would never hate. Would only pray for someone, not hate ever.” One rural Pennsylvania woman said, “I don’t hate anyone, especially not based on where they live or how they vote.” Simply put, not a single person I communicated with for my research expressed hatred toward anyone.

As for how coastal urban America thinks of them? “They probably think we’re a bunch of hillbillies,” was a sentiment that my interviewees echoed more than once — and not without reason.

The narrative of an angry rural America looking askance at our cities doesn’t explain the place I know both personally and intellectually. Rural Americans do not feel rage or hatred toward liberals. If anything, they feel liberals look down on them. For the most part, when we connect as humans, not voters, when we pay a little less attention to the media’s endless drumbeat of division, we find that Americans of all stripes like each other irrespective of whether they are Democrat or Republican, rural or urban. What Americans don’t like are the politics of division and the media’s role in stoking it.

Are there angry people in rural America? Of course there are. Are there racists, homophobes, and xenophobes in rural America? Definitely. But such hateful people exist everywhere — including in our cities — and they are, thankfully, in the minority everywhere. We cannot extrapolate a broad, sweeping narrative about a significant portion of the country from the loud, intolerant voices on the fringe. The fourth estate and our public intellectuals must keep their own biases in check rather than lean into the preconceived notion that rural Americans are inadequate, ignorant, and one-dimensional. That best seller I mentioned earlier? After the publication of the book, White Rural Rage, by Tom Schaller and Paul Waldman, the very researchers whose statistics were used to support the idea of white rural rage said the book misrepresented their data to make rural America look bad.

As a citizen who has always defined my politics as left-leaning, I am painfully aware of how condescending liberal elites have become toward rural America. I am repelled by their castigation of good people who don’t happen to live on either coast or in some boho, college-educated neighborhood. Overall, I find the illiberal Left to be increasingly intolerant, particularly as witnessed in the recent manifestations of campus antisemitism.

Our public intellectuals and leading media outlets have a duty to reset the conversation about rural America and take the time to find out the truth about the people who live there. Americans who live in cities and those who live in rural towns are equally complicated. While we may exist in different contexts, geographies, and circumstances, we share the same joys and vicissitudes of life in 21st-century America. And that through line should be honored, not dismissed.

ELIZABETH CURRID-HALKETT is the James Irvine Chair of Urban and Regional Planning and a professor of public policy at the University of Southern California. She is the author of The Overlooked Americans: The Resilience of Our Rural Towns and What It Means for Our Country.
Seacoaster(1)
Posts: 4626
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

old salt wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:31 am
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine ... ero-module

The Myth of Rural Rage

by ELIZABETH CURRID-HALKETT, May 16, 2024

Red states and small towns are not, in fact, full of hate

Today, talk of a divided America has become a cliché, almost too obvious to remark on. The country’s political geography is now reductively mapped as urban versus rural, the meritocrats versus the uneducated, liberals and the far Left at war with conservatives and the far Right. Much of the polarization argument centers on the belief that liberals and conservatives do not share the same values. According to the standard narrative, rural Americans feel rage and hate toward the liberal elite, and we are hurtling toward another civil war.

But what if, for the vast majority of rural Americans, none of this is true?

I first spoke to Craig Parker, now 72, in the autumn of 2022. Craig is a retired environmental worker, now a tree farmer, who lives in Jesup, Iowa, population 2,806. His great-great-grandfather came to Iowa in 1857, and the family has been there ever since. After our first conversation, Craig sent me a photo of himself with his son and grandchildren riding a green Oliver tractor, a moody sky and vast verdant landscape behind them. “Three generations of Parker men at the tree farm,” Craig wrote.

Over the course of two years, I had many conversations with Craig, a lifelong rural Republican, about his views on America and its hot-button issues. “There should be a way for people to come to this country and follow their dreams and build up,” Craig told me when I asked him about immigration and the infamous wall.

Craig was clear that he’s lived a very fortunate life, but for him privilege isn’t about money and things. He knows he was born into a world where many are not treated equally. “We had a guest pastor and he talked about white privilege. I’d never thought about it that way — a pretty sheltered life. Everyone should have the opportunity to do things for themselves. Nobody should have to sleep in the streets or go home hungry.”

Craig doesn’t own a Whole Foods tote bag, but he is a true conservationist who lives mainly off what he grows on his own land. When I asked him about same-sex marriage, Craig said he “struggles,” given his relationship to Scripture, but believes civil rights should be for everyone. His responses capture the sentiment of dozens of rural Americans I got to know over the past few years while conducting research for my book, The Overlooked Americans. But these aren’t just anecdotes.

Yet you would never know that Craig, or any of the millions of Americans like him, existed if you read many of the recent observations of rural America as a place filled with hate and vitriol. Recently, an academic, accompanied by his journalist co-author, trotted onto MSNBC and denounced rural Americans as “the most racist, xenophobic, anti-immigrant, anti-gay, geodemographic group in the country,” and their book, endorsed by a Nobel Prize–winning economist, became an instant best seller.

In reality, most Americans, in all regions, care about the same things — family, friends, health and happiness, democracy. Rural citizens are more likely to include religion on that list. But according to the University of Chicago’s General Social Survey, even on politically charged issues of racial equality, religion, the environment, and trust in our government, urban and rural Americans largely feel the same way. Statistically, about half of both rural and urban Americans are religious, even if rural Americans are more likely to openly discuss their belief in God. Over half of both rural and urban Americans feel too little is being done to protect the environment. When asked whether they believe government should aid black Americans, rural and urban respondents are similarly supportive. The General Social Survey also reports that rural Americans with less than a high-school education are the most likely group to support preferential hiring of black people.

For years, pundits have issued shrill warnings that rural American voters are at best ignorant of what is best for them and at worst angry and vengeful. In his 2004 book What’s the Matter with Kansas?, Thomas Frank portrayed rural, working-class America’s loyalty to the Republican Party as a form of “derangement.” Every few years a book comes out claiming to reveal the real rural America, as we’ve seen in the condescension of J. D. Vance’s Hillbilly Elegy, the false-consciousness argument in Jonathan Metzl’s Dying of Whiteness, or the mistrust and bitterness described in Katherine Cramer’s Politics of Resentment. Some reporting is more sympathetic than others, but all of it says more or less the same thing in different measures: Rural America is angry. Rural America is backward. Rural America feels left behind. For many liberal academics and journalists, it is simply incomprehensible that the vast majority of rural Americans might actually be content and not resentful of coastal elites — or, perhaps worse, not thinking about coastal elites at all. People like Craig challenge the view that rural America is a monolith of angry, poor racists. I’m here to tell you it’s not.

I’m a university professor who lives in Los Angeles and a lifelong liberal who interned for Senator Hillary Clinton when I was a graduate student at Columbia. I was euphoric when Barack Obama won the presidency and I cried when Hillary Clinton lost. I voted for Biden in 2020 and will vote for Biden again in 2024. I read the New York Times daily and I listen to NPR. But I have a problem with how some in liberal media and academia castigate an entire section of our country. We call Fox News partial (and it is), but media outlets that are supposedly neutral are also partial. The veteran NPR editor Uri Berliner argued in a viral piece in the Free Press that NPR, which is partly government-funded, has an increasingly apparent systemic liberal bias in its news reporting.

You might wonder how I ended up talking to Craig and other rural Americans in the first place. I spent my childhood and adolescence in rural America. I was born in West Virginia and raised in Danville, Pa., a town of about 5,000 people in Montour County, nestled along the Susquehanna River. When Trump won the White House in 2016, liberal elites were convulsing over what they felt was a rural reckoning and an ensuing fracturing of the country. I hadn’t yet met Craig, but I would read the pieces in liberal media about rural revenge, the deepening political divide between city and country, and the anger felt by everyone who had cast a vote for Trump and would often think — know, really, given my background — that this was not an accurate depiction of rural America.

So I used my training as a researcher to uncover the real story. Over the last five years, I have talked to Democrats, Republicans, pro-Trump conservatives, and anti-Trump conservatives, sometimes all in the same day. I have spoken to painters, the unemployed, teachers, farmers, doctors, and nurses. I have listened to a progressive Democrat and a Trump voter who supports election-conspiracy theories — they live down the road from each other in a town of fewer than a thousand. I have talked to wealthy landowners, farmers in the Midwest, and poor people living in desolate parts of Appalachia, some with irregular running water and no grocery store within dozens of miles. In almost 20 years of interviews for my books and academic articles, I have come to learn that it is only when you talk with people for a long time, ask them about their lives, and actually listen that you find who they are and what they want.

When I spoke to Craig and other people in rural America, they weren’t angry at cities or progressives or Democrats. Sure, some fretted about the state of the country or the economy, or had concerns about current policies. Republican voters weren’t satisfied with President Biden, but no one — neither the conspiracy theorist in Kentucky, nor Craig in Iowa, nor the “hard-core Republican” (self-described) in Missouri — expressed vitriol or visceral hatred toward their fellow citizens.

Some I spoke to worried about America’s future, but almost all of them were hopeful and believed life was better now than in previous eras. Even those I interviewed who were economically struggling, coping with drug addiction in the family, or living in food deserts expressed hope and optimism. “When you look at America today, it’s not where we wanted to be, but compared to [the past]?” a man from a Midwest town, population 400, said to me. Comparing the relative peace and prosperity of our time with the Cold War era and economic downturns that previous generations had coped with, he went on: “My life has been a whole lot better than theirs. . . . When you were scared of being blown out of existence, every other person you knew was unemployed? . . . From that perspective, we are a lot better off.”

Most important, almost everyone said they could relate to fellow Americans regardless of whether they live in a city or a small town. “Sure, I could talk to anyone. You’re from California, aren’t you?” Jane from Pennsylvania said with a laugh. “I think there’s crazy people everywhere, and if someone’s culture is different, I want to know about it, I want to hear about it.” This was the general sentiment expressed by almost everyone with whom I spoke, that they could talk to anyone. “I can’t imagine not relating to someone who was also a person,” remarked Clay, a young man from Kentucky. “Being American is enough of a specificity that we had something in common and we could relate to.”

Many months after my initial interviews, as the media continued to foment political division, I emailed my contacts in rural America to ask whether I could talk to them again. Within hours they replied and offered times for me to call. So I asked in one way or another, No, seriously, don’t you hate liberal America a little bit? Aren’t you a little bit angry with Democrats? And their answers remained the same.

“My perspective is they [liberals] hate me with all the vitriol in the world and they assume I hate them,” explained a man from a rural town in Missouri near the Ozarks. “I don’t hate them. . . . Any of them want to have dinner with me, they’re welcome.” A rural Wisconsin man said, “I don’t have hatred about America, there’s just too much going on. People are focusing on themselves as individuals, not what is best for the country.” A woman from Appalachia remarked: “We don’t have to agree on everything to like each other. I would never hate. Would only pray for someone, not hate ever.” One rural Pennsylvania woman said, “I don’t hate anyone, especially not based on where they live or how they vote.” Simply put, not a single person I communicated with for my research expressed hatred toward anyone.

As for how coastal urban America thinks of them? “They probably think we’re a bunch of hillbillies,” was a sentiment that my interviewees echoed more than once — and not without reason.

The narrative of an angry rural America looking askance at our cities doesn’t explain the place I know both personally and intellectually. Rural Americans do not feel rage or hatred toward liberals. If anything, they feel liberals look down on them. For the most part, when we connect as humans, not voters, when we pay a little less attention to the media’s endless drumbeat of division, we find that Americans of all stripes like each other irrespective of whether they are Democrat or Republican, rural or urban. What Americans don’t like are the politics of division and the media’s role in stoking it.

Are there angry people in rural America? Of course there are. Are there racists, homophobes, and xenophobes in rural America? Definitely. But such hateful people exist everywhere — including in our cities — and they are, thankfully, in the minority everywhere. We cannot extrapolate a broad, sweeping narrative about a significant portion of the country from the loud, intolerant voices on the fringe. The fourth estate and our public intellectuals must keep their own biases in check rather than lean into the preconceived notion that rural Americans are inadequate, ignorant, and one-dimensional. That best seller I mentioned earlier? After the publication of the book, White Rural Rage, by Tom Schaller and Paul Waldman, the very researchers whose statistics were used to support the idea of white rural rage said the book misrepresented their data to make rural America look bad.

As a citizen who has always defined my politics as left-leaning, I am painfully aware of how condescending liberal elites have become toward rural America. I am repelled by their castigation of good people who don’t happen to live on either coast or in some boho, college-educated neighborhood. Overall, I find the illiberal Left to be increasingly intolerant, particularly as witnessed in the recent manifestations of campus antisemitism.

Our public intellectuals and leading media outlets have a duty to reset the conversation about rural America and take the time to find out the truth about the people who live there. Americans who live in cities and those who live in rural towns are equally complicated. While we may exist in different contexts, geographies, and circumstances, we share the same joys and vicissitudes of life in 21st-century America. And that through line should be honored, not dismissed.

ELIZABETH CURRID-HALKETT is the James Irvine Chair of Urban and Regional Planning and a professor of public policy at the University of Southern California. She is the author of The Overlooked Americans: The Resilience of Our Rural Towns and What It Means for Our Country.
Really good editorial/article. Thanks for posting it.
a fan
Posts: 18160
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by a fan »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 6:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 3:31 am
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine ... ero-module

The Myth of Rural Rage

by ELIZABETH CURRID-HALKETT, May 16, 2024

Red states and small towns are not, in fact, full of hate

Today, talk of a divided America has become a cliché, almost too obvious to remark on. The country’s political geography is now reductively mapped as urban versus rural, the meritocrats versus the uneducated, liberals and the far Left at war with conservatives and the far Right. Much of the polarization argument centers on the belief that liberals and conservatives do not share the same values. According to the standard narrative, rural Americans feel rage and hate toward the liberal elite, and we are hurtling toward another civil war.

But what if, for the vast majority of rural Americans, none of this is true?

I first spoke to Craig Parker, now 72, in the autumn of 2022. Craig is a retired environmental worker, now a tree farmer, who lives in Jesup, Iowa, population 2,806. His great-great-grandfather came to Iowa in 1857, and the family has been there ever since. After our first conversation, Craig sent me a photo of himself with his son and grandchildren riding a green Oliver tractor, a moody sky and vast verdant landscape behind them. “Three generations of Parker men at the tree farm,” Craig wrote.

Over the course of two years, I had many conversations with Craig, a lifelong rural Republican, about his views on America and its hot-button issues. “There should be a way for people to come to this country and follow their dreams and build up,” Craig told me when I asked him about immigration and the infamous wall.

Craig was clear that he’s lived a very fortunate life, but for him privilege isn’t about money and things. He knows he was born into a world where many are not treated equally. “We had a guest pastor and he talked about white privilege. I’d never thought about it that way — a pretty sheltered life. Everyone should have the opportunity to do things for themselves. Nobody should have to sleep in the streets or go home hungry.”

Craig doesn’t own a Whole Foods tote bag, but he is a true conservationist who lives mainly off what he grows on his own land. When I asked him about same-sex marriage, Craig said he “struggles,” given his relationship to Scripture, but believes civil rights should be for everyone. His responses capture the sentiment of dozens of rural Americans I got to know over the past few years while conducting research for my book, The Overlooked Americans. But these aren’t just anecdotes.

Yet you would never know that Craig, or any of the millions of Americans like him, existed if you read many of the recent observations of rural America as a place filled with hate and vitriol. Recently, an academic, accompanied by his journalist co-author, trotted onto MSNBC and denounced rural Americans as “the most racist, xenophobic, anti-immigrant, anti-gay, geodemographic group in the country,” and their book, endorsed by a Nobel Prize–winning economist, became an instant best seller.

In reality, most Americans, in all regions, care about the same things — family, friends, health and happiness, democracy. Rural citizens are more likely to include religion on that list. But according to the University of Chicago’s General Social Survey, even on politically charged issues of racial equality, religion, the environment, and trust in our government, urban and rural Americans largely feel the same way. Statistically, about half of both rural and urban Americans are religious, even if rural Americans are more likely to openly discuss their belief in God. Over half of both rural and urban Americans feel too little is being done to protect the environment. When asked whether they believe government should aid black Americans, rural and urban respondents are similarly supportive. The General Social Survey also reports that rural Americans with less than a high-school education are the most likely group to support preferential hiring of black people.

For years, pundits have issued shrill warnings that rural American voters are at best ignorant of what is best for them and at worst angry and vengeful. In his 2004 book What’s the Matter with Kansas?, Thomas Frank portrayed rural, working-class America’s loyalty to the Republican Party as a form of “derangement.” Every few years a book comes out claiming to reveal the real rural America, as we’ve seen in the condescension of J. D. Vance’s Hillbilly Elegy, the false-consciousness argument in Jonathan Metzl’s Dying of Whiteness, or the mistrust and bitterness described in Katherine Cramer’s Politics of Resentment. Some reporting is more sympathetic than others, but all of it says more or less the same thing in different measures: Rural America is angry. Rural America is backward. Rural America feels left behind. For many liberal academics and journalists, it is simply incomprehensible that the vast majority of rural Americans might actually be content and not resentful of coastal elites — or, perhaps worse, not thinking about coastal elites at all. People like Craig challenge the view that rural America is a monolith of angry, poor racists. I’m here to tell you it’s not.

I’m a university professor who lives in Los Angeles and a lifelong liberal who interned for Senator Hillary Clinton when I was a graduate student at Columbia. I was euphoric when Barack Obama won the presidency and I cried when Hillary Clinton lost. I voted for Biden in 2020 and will vote for Biden again in 2024. I read the New York Times daily and I listen to NPR. But I have a problem with how some in liberal media and academia castigate an entire section of our country. We call Fox News partial (and it is), but media outlets that are supposedly neutral are also partial. The veteran NPR editor Uri Berliner argued in a viral piece in the Free Press that NPR, which is partly government-funded, has an increasingly apparent systemic liberal bias in its news reporting.

You might wonder how I ended up talking to Craig and other rural Americans in the first place. I spent my childhood and adolescence in rural America. I was born in West Virginia and raised in Danville, Pa., a town of about 5,000 people in Montour County, nestled along the Susquehanna River. When Trump won the White House in 2016, liberal elites were convulsing over what they felt was a rural reckoning and an ensuing fracturing of the country. I hadn’t yet met Craig, but I would read the pieces in liberal media about rural revenge, the deepening political divide between city and country, and the anger felt by everyone who had cast a vote for Trump and would often think — know, really, given my background — that this was not an accurate depiction of rural America.

So I used my training as a researcher to uncover the real story. Over the last five years, I have talked to Democrats, Republicans, pro-Trump conservatives, and anti-Trump conservatives, sometimes all in the same day. I have spoken to painters, the unemployed, teachers, farmers, doctors, and nurses. I have listened to a progressive Democrat and a Trump voter who supports election-conspiracy theories — they live down the road from each other in a town of fewer than a thousand. I have talked to wealthy landowners, farmers in the Midwest, and poor people living in desolate parts of Appalachia, some with irregular running water and no grocery store within dozens of miles. In almost 20 years of interviews for my books and academic articles, I have come to learn that it is only when you talk with people for a long time, ask them about their lives, and actually listen that you find who they are and what they want.

When I spoke to Craig and other people in rural America, they weren’t angry at cities or progressives or Democrats. Sure, some fretted about the state of the country or the economy, or had concerns about current policies. Republican voters weren’t satisfied with President Biden, but no one — neither the conspiracy theorist in Kentucky, nor Craig in Iowa, nor the “hard-core Republican” (self-described) in Missouri — expressed vitriol or visceral hatred toward their fellow citizens.

Some I spoke to worried about America’s future, but almost all of them were hopeful and believed life was better now than in previous eras. Even those I interviewed who were economically struggling, coping with drug addiction in the family, or living in food deserts expressed hope and optimism. “When you look at America today, it’s not where we wanted to be, but compared to [the past]?” a man from a Midwest town, population 400, said to me. Comparing the relative peace and prosperity of our time with the Cold War era and economic downturns that previous generations had coped with, he went on: “My life has been a whole lot better than theirs. . . . When you were scared of being blown out of existence, every other person you knew was unemployed? . . . From that perspective, we are a lot better off.”

Most important, almost everyone said they could relate to fellow Americans regardless of whether they live in a city or a small town. “Sure, I could talk to anyone. You’re from California, aren’t you?” Jane from Pennsylvania said with a laugh. “I think there’s crazy people everywhere, and if someone’s culture is different, I want to know about it, I want to hear about it.” This was the general sentiment expressed by almost everyone with whom I spoke, that they could talk to anyone. “I can’t imagine not relating to someone who was also a person,” remarked Clay, a young man from Kentucky. “Being American is enough of a specificity that we had something in common and we could relate to.”

Many months after my initial interviews, as the media continued to foment political division, I emailed my contacts in rural America to ask whether I could talk to them again. Within hours they replied and offered times for me to call. So I asked in one way or another, No, seriously, don’t you hate liberal America a little bit? Aren’t you a little bit angry with Democrats? And their answers remained the same.

“My perspective is they [liberals] hate me with all the vitriol in the world and they assume I hate them,” explained a man from a rural town in Missouri near the Ozarks. “I don’t hate them. . . . Any of them want to have dinner with me, they’re welcome.” A rural Wisconsin man said, “I don’t have hatred about America, there’s just too much going on. People are focusing on themselves as individuals, not what is best for the country.” A woman from Appalachia remarked: “We don’t have to agree on everything to like each other. I would never hate. Would only pray for someone, not hate ever.” One rural Pennsylvania woman said, “I don’t hate anyone, especially not based on where they live or how they vote.” Simply put, not a single person I communicated with for my research expressed hatred toward anyone.

As for how coastal urban America thinks of them? “They probably think we’re a bunch of hillbillies,” was a sentiment that my interviewees echoed more than once — and not without reason.

The narrative of an angry rural America looking askance at our cities doesn’t explain the place I know both personally and intellectually. Rural Americans do not feel rage or hatred toward liberals. If anything, they feel liberals look down on them. For the most part, when we connect as humans, not voters, when we pay a little less attention to the media’s endless drumbeat of division, we find that Americans of all stripes like each other irrespective of whether they are Democrat or Republican, rural or urban. What Americans don’t like are the politics of division and the media’s role in stoking it.

Are there angry people in rural America? Of course there are. Are there racists, homophobes, and xenophobes in rural America? Definitely. But such hateful people exist everywhere — including in our cities — and they are, thankfully, in the minority everywhere. We cannot extrapolate a broad, sweeping narrative about a significant portion of the country from the loud, intolerant voices on the fringe. The fourth estate and our public intellectuals must keep their own biases in check rather than lean into the preconceived notion that rural Americans are inadequate, ignorant, and one-dimensional. That best seller I mentioned earlier? After the publication of the book, White Rural Rage, by Tom Schaller and Paul Waldman, the very researchers whose statistics were used to support the idea of white rural rage said the book misrepresented their data to make rural America look bad.

As a citizen who has always defined my politics as left-leaning, I am painfully aware of how condescending liberal elites have become toward rural America. I am repelled by their castigation of good people who don’t happen to live on either coast or in some boho, college-educated neighborhood. Overall, I find the illiberal Left to be increasingly intolerant, particularly as witnessed in the recent manifestations of campus antisemitism.

Our public intellectuals and leading media outlets have a duty to reset the conversation about rural America and take the time to find out the truth about the people who live there. Americans who live in cities and those who live in rural towns are equally complicated. While we may exist in different contexts, geographies, and circumstances, we share the same joys and vicissitudes of life in 21st-century America. And that through line should be honored, not dismissed.

ELIZABETH CURRID-HALKETT is the James Irvine Chair of Urban and Regional Planning and a professor of public policy at the University of Southern California. She is the author of The Overlooked Americans: The Resilience of Our Rural Towns and What It Means for Our Country.
Really good editorial/article. Thanks for posting it.
This is true.

Of course, you can say the exact same thing about folks who don't live in cities, and we see it in this Forum.

How many Americans who don't live in cities have been convinced by their media feed that Big Cities are perpetually on fire, figuratively speaking? Cats and dogs, living together in the streets, and all that.

Our media feed gives us a hyper-distorted view of anyone or anywhere that have folks who we're TOLD don't share our views.

Clickbait. Outrage culture. I've said it a million times: the far left and far right are trying to convince Americans that there's no such thing as the American middle, and that moderates don't exist.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26188
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

And some on this forum argue that 'moderates' are wimps, that only the toughest, loudest rhetoric is "strong".

I think the article is 95% correct, and I wholeheartedly believe is correct about common core values of the human beings in various locales being more alike than not, at least in the majority.

HOWEVER...it ignores some very stark differences in what people believe about the world and each other that correlates to location and education.

Now is it because of education and location? Causal?

Or is it that our media fragmentation offers very different perspectives of 'truth' and that when one's neighbors and friends get their 'truth' from a particular fragment this tends to be where one gets one's own 'truth'? Our species has succeeded because of biological impulses to group together for common interest...

These are tipping point factors that exacerbate otherwise reasonable people who share common values to a large extent into more extreme views of the world and each other. It's psychology 101 stuff.

And there are many people, opportunists, ideologues, power seekers, who are consciously exploiting these dynamics, often with outright lies delivered with ever more precision to the unwary (which is most of us).
PizzaSnake
Posts: 4956
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by PizzaSnake »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 11:11 am And some on this forum argue that 'moderates' are wimps, that only the toughest, loudest rhetoric is "strong".

I think the article is 95% correct, and I wholeheartedly believe is correct about common core values of the human beings in various locales being more alike than not, at least in the majority.

HOWEVER...it ignores some very stark differences in what people believe about the world and each other that correlates to location and education.

Now is it because of education and location? Causal?

Or is it that our media fragmentation offers very different perspectives of 'truth' and that when one's neighbors and friends get their 'truth' from a particular fragment this tends to be where one gets one's own 'truth'? Our species has succeeded because of biological impulses to group together for common interest...

These are tipping point factors that exacerbate otherwise reasonable people who share common values to a large extent into more extreme views of the world and each other. It's psychology 101 stuff.

And there are many people, opportunists, ideologues, power seekers, who are consciously exploiting these dynamics, often with outright lies delivered with ever more precision to the unwary (which is most of us).
Neurobiological. Some people have a fear response to change. Probably a survival reflex.

Or, a blend of nature and nurture as the determinists assert.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
Seacoaster(1)
Posts: 4626
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: Them vs. U.S. - The Two Americas ...

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Post Reply

Return to “POLITICS”