January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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Seacoaster(1)
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

njbill wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:08 pm There didn't seem to be any votes to adopt Trump's absolute immunity position, in toto. But then Ginny may yet work on Thomas and Alito.

There also doesn't seem to be a majority to affirm the D.C. Circuit's decision as is.

But a majority of Justices seem to be of the view that the central allegations in the indictment do not involve "official acts."

Some of the conservative justices seem to be skeptical of Smith's argument that Trump does not have immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts. Interestingly (to me), Trump's lawyer conceded that some of the allegations in the indictment involve "private," i.e., not "official" conduct. But he says the core allegations about overturning the election involve official acts for which he is immune from prosecution.

Seems as though the Court is going to write a decision that doesn't just resolve the Trump case, but which lays down some general guidelines for future similar cases (which hopefully we never have). The Court may come up with a test for what is an "official act." They also may try to draw a line defining which "official acts" are immune from criminal prosecution and which aren't.

I think the case very likely will be remanded for further proceedings to determine if the conduct that is the subject of the indictment involves "official acts" and, to the extent so, whether that conduct is subject to criminal prosecution.

I think the District Court could probably resolve those issues quickly, and with enough time for a trial to start before the election. BUT if the D.C. Circuit and/or the S.Ct. allows that decision to be appealed on an interlocutory basis, as is the case with the current appeal, there would be no chance the case goes to trial before the election. That is what I think is going to happen.

Who authors the decision? Roberts would seem to be the likely one. But maybe Sotomayor? Just what Trump would love to hear: "Justice Sotomayor delivered the opinion of the Court."

This post will self destruct in one day so it can't be quoted back at me in June when the Court issues its decision.
Good write-up; thanks Bill.

What about the idea of the Special Counsel amending the complaint to include only those acts about which the Moron's Counsel conceded were private or non-official actions?
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by njbill »

Don’t know, but wouldn’t they have to go back to the grand jury to get a new indictment issued?
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by jhu72 »

... anyone still believe in the institution ???
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

njbill wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 4:51 pm Don’t know, but wouldn’t they have to go back to the grand jury to get a new indictment issued?
Ugh. I don’t know.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:53 pm
njbill wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:08 pm There didn't seem to be any votes to adopt Trump's absolute immunity position, in toto. But then Ginny may yet work on Thomas and Alito.

There also doesn't seem to be a majority to affirm the D.C. Circuit's decision as is.

But a majority of Justices seem to be of the view that the central allegations in the indictment do not involve "official acts."

Some of the conservative justices seem to be skeptical of Smith's argument that Trump does not have immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts. Interestingly (to me), Trump's lawyer conceded that some of the allegations in the indictment involve "private," i.e., not "official" conduct. But he says the core allegations about overturning the election involve official acts for which he is immune from prosecution.

Seems as though the Court is going to write a decision that doesn't just resolve the Trump case, but which lays down some general guidelines for future similar cases (which hopefully we never have). The Court may come up with a test for what is an "official act." They also may try to draw a line defining which "official acts" are immune from criminal prosecution and which aren't.

I think the case very likely will be remanded for further proceedings to determine if the conduct that is the subject of the indictment involves "official acts" and, to the extent so, whether that conduct is subject to criminal prosecution.

I think the District Court could probably resolve those issues quickly, and with enough time for a trial to start before the election. BUT if the D.C. Circuit and/or the S.Ct. allows that decision to be appealed on an interlocutory basis, as is the case with the current appeal, there would be no chance the case goes to trial before the election. That is what I think is going to happen.

Who authors the decision? Roberts would seem to be the likely one. But maybe Sotomayor? Just what Trump would love to hear: "Justice Sotomayor delivered the opinion of the Court."

This post will self destruct in one day so it can't be quoted back at me in June when the Court issues its decision.
Good write-up; thanks Bill.

What about the idea of the Special Counsel amending the complaint to include only those acts about which the Moron's Counsel conceded were private or non-official actions?
I listened to the whole thing last night on CSPAN and I think it comes down to 4 women strongly opposed to full immunity ( the 3 liberal strongly saying this is not the case to try to create a rule given that the argument can be wholesale rejected as to 100% immunity and Barrett clearly not willing to give immunity including for some 'official' acts, so need a 'test'), 4 men flirting but not willing to go with full immunity but trying to help Trump some other way while pretending to actually be concerned with the Constitution, and Roberts in the balance. The compromise, with multiple dissenting opinions, would be a remand as described that likely pushes all this post election.

They could however, compromise on a position that defines immunity style protections for 'core' Article 2 acts or some such narrowing of application and at the same time rule that this case does not allege illegality of any such core Article 2 acts other than perhaps the attempts to change DOJ leadership or bring in the military. They could make clear that those actions in themselves are protected, but that they can be used as evidentiary to the conspiracy to defraud for personal benefit. The bribery examples explored by Roberts and others make clear that the official act itself is not open to criminal prosecution but the bribe requires a quo for the bribe's quid and can be cited as evidence of the intent of the bribe.

I do think the prosecution would then amend the indictment to be clear as to where the acts create fraud against the United States on behalf of a private interest.

I think the liberal ladies are correct, the case should not have been taken, or if taken, quickly and clearly rejected the Trump position of total immunity for all acts personal or official, and leave open the question as to whether some limited official acts might have such protection, inferring such would need to be tested by a case actually involving such acts. Meanwhile, former Presidents would be free to invoke such defenses and otherwise rely on the many layers of justice protection for any person. If there was a case actually involving such core Article 2 acts, then decide that matter then. That's how SCOTUS is supposed to handle such, not actively legislate.

In the meantime, Presidents, don't do obvious crimes.

That Thomas is even hearing this case is a disgrace.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by OCanada »

Keeping in mind 4 of those justices lied under oath to get appointed. SCOTUS has jumped the tracks and lost the public faith
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:33 pmThat Thomas is even hearing this case is a disgrace.

In the not so distant past the presidents, or certain presidents have engaged in various activities... coups, like Operation Mongoose when I was a teenager. And yet there where no prosecutions. Why? If what you are saying is right it would seem that that would have been ripe for criminal prosecution of someone.
- Clarence Thomas

Gee Clarence, I wonder why Kennedy wasn't prosecuted for Operation Mongoose. :roll:
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/opin ... thers.html

"Did the American Revolution actually happen? If it did, was it a good thing?

This is more or less what Justice Elena Kagan seemed to be wondering during the oral arguments in Donald Trump’s Jan. 6 immunity case at the Supreme Court on Thursday morning. “Wasn’t the whole point that the president was not a monarch and the president was not supposed to be above the law?” she asked.

Like her, I had assumed those questions were answered decisively in the affirmative more than 200 years ago. But now, after almost three hours of circuitous debate and bizarre hypotheticals at the Supreme Court, I’m not so sure.

The right-wing justices seemed thoroughly uninterested in the case before them, which involves a violent insurrection that was led by a sitting president who is seeking to return to office in a matter of months. Instead, they spent the morning and early afternoon appearing to be more worried that prosecuting Mr. Trump could risk future malicious prosecutions of former presidents by their political rivals. And they tried to draw a distinction between official acts, for which a president might have immunity from prosecution, and private acts, for which no immunity would apply.

The upshot was that a majority of justices appeared prepared to send the case back down to the lower courts for further unnecessary litigation, which would almost certainly eliminate any chance of a trial being held before Election Day.

So let’s remember how we got here. The case began last year with the special counsel Jack Smith’s indictment of the former president on charges of obstruction, fraud and conspiracy relating to his central role in the effort to overturn his defeat in the 2020 election, which resulted in the deadly attack at the U.S. Capitol. This scheme was, by a long shot, the most egregious abuse of authority by any president in history. It has resulted in multiple federal and state indictments of Mr. Trump and his associates, some of whom have already pleaded guilty to elements of the broader plot.

In short, the justice system is doing its job by trying to hold to account a former president for subverting the last election before he runs in the next one. That is a very important job! And yet the right-wing justices are saying, essentially, not so fast — and maybe not at all.

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The federal Jan. 6 trial should have been underway for almost two months by this point. Instead, Mr. Trump managed to derail the prosecution with an off-the-wall appeal that he is absolutely immune from prosecution for his actions up to and on Jan. 6, which he claims were taken in the course of his official duties — even though the president has no role in overseeing how states run their elections. The lower courts, in opinions by judges appointed by both Republicans and Democrats, dispatched this appeal with ease. But the Supreme Court decided to take the case anyway, scheduling it for the final argument day of the term.

The arguments on Thursday tracked with this oddly leisurely pace, laced with hypothetical arguments.

For instance, Justice Samuel Alito asked, what if an incumbent president “loses a very close, hotly contested election?” Without immunity, there is a risk he won’t be able to “go off into a peaceful retirement” because of the fear that he will be criminally prosecuted by his political opponent. “Will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy?”

It was the literal inverse of the case before them. Michael Dreeben, the lawyer arguing the case for Mr. Smith, responded by pointing out that the justice system has a built-in mechanism for ensuring that prosecutions are fair: It’s called a lawsuit.

“There is an appropriate way to challenge things through the courts with evidence,” Mr. Dreeben said. “If you lose, you accept the results.” Mr. Trump, of course, did not accept his losses in more than 60 lawsuits, which is why we are all in this spot today.

Still, the right-wing justices seemed impervious to the urgency of the matter before them. “I’m not focused on the here and now of this case,” Justice Brett Kavanaugh said. “I’m very concerned about the future.”

But the here and now of this case is vital, and the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again.

In fact, Mr. Trump’s lawyers argued in this case that he would be immune from prosecution for ordering SEAL Team Six to assassinate one of his political rivals.

This is, as the nation’s founders would certainly agree, completely bonkers. Several of them had personally taken up arms to fight for independence from a king who existed above the law. As a group of the nation’s pre-eminent historians argued in a brief to the court, there is no evidence that any of the founders, including those who supported a powerful executive, imagined creating one who could abuse his authority without consequence.

James Wilson, a central figure in drafting the Constitution, asked then whether the president enjoyed “a single privilege or security that does not extend to every person throughout the United States? Is there a single distinction attached to him in this system more than there is to the lowest officer in the republic?” The answer is obviously no.

If a majority of the court sends the case back down to the lower courts with orders to re-examine the distinction between official and private acts, which seems likely, the resulting delay and lack of urgency in this case could well prevent a trial from being held before November. If Mr. Trump wins the election, he will shut down the prosecution and implement his extreme version of executive impunity. And the Supreme Court will have effectively blessed it, all while maintaining plausible deniability.

It’s tempting to wonder whether it really matters, whether anyone who isn’t already fully aware of Mr. Trump’s threat to the republic would be convinced by a guilty verdict.

But here’s the thing: Trials and due process do matter. Juries matter. Our criminal justice system, despite its numerous flaws, is the best method yet established to settle on the truth and do justice in a way that is widely seen as legitimate and fair. That is as it should be, because the courts hold your liberty, and sometimes even your life, in their hands.

The Jan. 6 immunity case has always been constitutionally offensive, and the Supreme Court could dispense with it easily. As Rick Pildes, a constitutional scholar, pointed out online while following the oral arguments, the justices have all the facts they need in order to decide, at the very least, which of the acts Mr. Trump is charged with are indisputably nonofficial, and thus not immune from prosecution.

The trial could continue based on those acts alone. If the court declines that route and prolongs this case, the “future” that the right-wingers profess to be so concerned about looks very bleak. The future looks like a president who really can shoot someone in broad daylight and get away with it."
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by PizzaSnake »

OCanada wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:25 pm Keeping in mind 4 of those justices lied under oath to get appointed. SCOTUS has jumped the tracks and lost the public faith
Be something if states started ignoring its rulings. Oh, that’s right, Tejas has already gone down that path.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

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NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:56 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:33 pmThat Thomas is even hearing this case is a disgrace.

In the not so distant past the presidents, or certain presidents have engaged in various activities... coups, like Operation Mongoose when I was a teenager. And yet there where no prosecutions. Why? If what you are saying is right it would seem that that would have been ripe for criminal prosecution of someone.
- Clarence Thomas

Gee Clarence, I wonder why Kennedy wasn't prosecuted for Operation Mongoose. :roll:
Gee Clarence, I wonder why you didn't mention Iran/Contra, which took place when your were in office, instead? :roll:
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by dislaxxic »

From the TRULY scary NYT piece that Seacoaster posted above...
...the right-wing justices seemed impervious to the urgency of the matter before them. “I’m not focused on the here and now of this case,” Justice Brett Kavanaugh said. “I’m very concerned about the future.”

But the here and now of this case is vital, and the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again.
Alarm bells are ringing ALL OVER THE PLACE and these craven political ideologues packed onto this court by McConnell and Trump surely do seem poised to grease the skids of ending the Founders vision...

Is their country one we want to live in?

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

dislaxxic wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:03 pm From the TRULY scary NYT piece that Seacoaster posted above...
...the right-wing justices seemed impervious to the urgency of the matter before them. “I’m not focused on the here and now of this case,” Justice Brett Kavanaugh said. “I’m very concerned about the future.”

But the here and now of this case is vital, and the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again.
Alarm bells are ringing ALL OVER THE PLACE and these craven political ideologues packed onto this court by McConnell and Trump surely do seem poised to grease the skids of ending the Founders vision...

Is their country one we want to live in?

..
Thanks for the early morning FLP belly laugh. Your side is already chipping away at the founding fathers vision when you try and explain why the constitution is a living breathing document that you can remold in your vision. The constitution protects us by defining what the government can't do to us. Your team wants that to be redefined to what the government can do to us. Any sane American knows what the government wants to do to us.
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 6:37 am
dislaxxic wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:03 pm From the TRULY scary NYT piece that Seacoaster posted above...
...the right-wing justices seemed impervious to the urgency of the matter before them. “I’m not focused on the here and now of this case,” Justice Brett Kavanaugh said. “I’m very concerned about the future.”

But the here and now of this case is vital, and the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again.
Alarm bells are ringing ALL OVER THE PLACE and these craven political ideologues packed onto this court by McConnell and Trump surely do seem poised to grease the skids of ending the Founders vision...

Is their country one we want to live in?

..
Thanks for the early morning FLP belly laugh. Your side is already chipping away at the founding fathers vision when you try and explain why the constitution is a living breathing document that you can remold in your vision. The constitution protects us by defining what the government can't do to us. Your team wants that to be redefined to what the government can do to us. Any sane American knows what the government wants to do to us.
Did he even read the article? Or is it just enough for C&S to blurt, "the FLP's want to construe the Constitution to diminish protection from government overreach"?

The article was written by a well-known "neoconservative," who says of the immunity appeal by Trump, "the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again."

Hard to learn anything when all you do is parrot the crib notes you get from Right Wing "Media."
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 7:24 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 6:37 am
dislaxxic wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:03 pm From the TRULY scary NYT piece that Seacoaster posted above...
...the right-wing justices seemed impervious to the urgency of the matter before them. “I’m not focused on the here and now of this case,” Justice Brett Kavanaugh said. “I’m very concerned about the future.”

But the here and now of this case is vital, and the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again.
Alarm bells are ringing ALL OVER THE PLACE and these craven political ideologues packed onto this court by McConnell and Trump surely do seem poised to grease the skids of ending the Founders vision...

Is their country one we want to live in?

..
Thanks for the early morning FLP belly laugh. Your side is already chipping away at the founding fathers vision when you try and explain why the constitution is a living breathing document that you can remold in your vision. The constitution protects us by defining what the government can't do to us. Your team wants that to be redefined to what the government can do to us. Any sane American knows what the government wants to do to us.
Did he even read the article? Or is it just enough for C&S to blurt, "the FLP's want to construe the Constitution to diminish protection from government overreach"?

The article was written by a well-known "neoconservative," who says of the immunity appeal by Trump, "the outcome should not be a close vote. The former president violated his constitutional obligation to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed. He is now running to be elected again. The threat is not what some hypothetical future commander in chief might do, but what the defendant in this lawsuit has already done, and has openly promised to do again."

Hard to learn anything when all you do is parrot the crib notes you get from Right Wing "Media."
My primary source of news today counselor comes from NBC. I watch Hoda and Savannah and of course Al in the AM. The great Lester Holt provides background noise during dinner. Are you now telling me I'm listening to right wing media? ;) So much for FLP standing by their core belief in diversity and differences of opinion. The default function goes directly into attack mode. :D
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by dislaxxic »

The conclusions Cranky reaches are clearly NOT being discussed on NBC. That just isn't true even a little bit. WHAT about this jumbled word salad makes ANYone think it has any validity whatsoever??
Thanks for the early morning FLP belly laugh. Your side is already chipping away at the founding fathers vision when you try and explain why the constitution is a living breathing document that you can remold in your vision. The constitution protects us by defining what the government can't do to us. Your team wants that to be redefined to what the government can do to us. Any sane American knows what the government wants to do to us.
What mystery is there about what "peaceful transfer of power" means? No one this side of CrankyTown believes that Lester Holt thinks it's OK to violate that process and then spew a thousand lies about it. He doesn't have cable, but he has the internet. He has a lifelong hatred of liberalism, although he wouldn't know that thing if it snuck up and bit him on the keister.

No, he most certainly did NOT read the article...his loss...

..
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Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Post by cradleandshoot »

dislaxxic wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:09 pm The conclusions Cranky reaches are clearly NOT being discussed on NBC. That just isn't true even a little bit. WHAT about this jumbled word salad makes ANYone think it has any validity whatsoever??
Thanks for the early morning FLP belly laugh. Your side is already chipping away at the founding fathers vision when you try and explain why the constitution is a living breathing document that you can remold in your vision. The constitution protects us by defining what the government can't do to us. Your team wants that to be redefined to what the government can do to us. Any sane American knows what the government wants to do to us.
What mystery is there about what "peaceful transfer of power" means? No one this side of CrankyTown believes that Lester Holt thinks it's OK to violate that process and then spew a thousand lies about it. He doesn't have cable, but he has the internet. He has a lifelong hatred of liberalism, although he wouldn't know that thing if it snuck up and bit him on the keister.

No, he most certainly did NOT read the article...his loss...

..
Reading articles posted by FLP liberals can be hazardous to your health. :D FTR there Tweety bird I was born into a liberal Democrat family. I was at one time registered as a Democrat. My first vote in 1976 was for Jimmy Carter. What happened to me jaundice boy was I took a 25 year hiatus from the world of politics. When I regained interest in politics sadly you and your ilk had taken over the Democrat Party. If my mother was alive today she would slap you in your face for the damage you and your ilk did to her party. Can you imagine there Dis a devout Irish Roman Catholic girl suddenly being told abortion was all cool and groovy. My mom would have no place in YOUR version of what a Democrat should be. FTR there numbnuts my mom was a liberal Democrat before your ass was born. You and your ilk are the ones who have turned the Democrat party all FUBAR. In the name of transparency the Republicans are destroying their party on the same pace. Do you wonder why the number of people who are now hardcore independent voters are sick of the chit both parties are handing out

Vote for trump, a border line psychopath

Vote for Biden, a brain damaged imbecile

The best candidates in the world to represent the American people... :roll:
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