Conservative Ideology: A Big Lie

[Typical Lax Dad]

I had the pleasure of attending a lecture he gave to students and faculty last year. He was fantastic.

[dislaxxic]

I don't have a good answer to your question, but I'm hoping to understand this better to form my answer.

In your view, or anyone else who wants to chime in, could there be a book so obscene or bad in any other way that we would want to 1) ban it from schools or libraries or 2) prosecute a librarian for providing the book to a minor?

Should the number of banned books always be zero?

What do we call it if an adult book (with depictions of sex or violence) is in an elementary school library and people complain about that. Are they in favor of censorship and banning books? Can we compare them to nazis? Is there a different way to describe that?

These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones.

OML34, you advance specific examples that should - of COURSE - be dealt with responsibly and, i believe, as conservatively as possible to protect young children from things like pornography.

Who gets to decide?

The laws discussed in the article i posted are much more pernicious - in my opinion - with respect to the types of censorship certain elements of our society wish to impose on others. I'll assume you read the post closely.

Instead of the broad strokes concerning the most far-out, frightful examples you can conjure...what do you think about the levels of censorship discussed in the article, and the idea of criminalizing activity by library staff when it come to the same?

..

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_ce ... 20families.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Well, they have them trained:

https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/sta ... 3851210911

[ohmilax34]

Is this the country we want to live in??

Red states threaten librarians with prison — as blue states work to protect them

Sam Lee, a leader of the Connecticut Library Association, heads to work these days torn between hope and fear.

She’s encouraged because legislators in her state proposed a bill this year making it harder for school boards to ban library books. But she’s fearful because Connecticut, like America, is seeing a sustained surge in book challenges — and she wonders if objectors will see the legislation as a reason to file more complaints.

“I would like to be optimistic,” Lee said. “But having been in my position for the last few years … I don’t know, it really feels like it’s been forever. And I am worried the book banners are just going to be emboldened.”

The bill in Connecticut, pending before an education committee, is one of a raft of measures advancing nationwide that seek to do things like prohibit book bans or forbid the harassment of school and public librarians — the first such wave in the country, said John Chrastka, director of library advocacy group EveryLibrary. Legislators in 22 mostly blue states have proposed 57 such bills so far this year, and two have become law, according to a Washington Post analysis of state legislative databases and an EveryLibrary legislative tracker.

But the library-friendly measures are being outpaced by bills in mostly red states that aim to restrict which books libraries can offer and threaten librarians with prison or thousands in fines for handing out “obscene” or “harmful” titles. At least 27 states are considering 100 such bills this year, three of which have become law, The Post found. That adds to nearly a dozen similar measures enacted over the last three years across 10 states.

Lawmakers proposing restrictive bills contend they are necessary because school and public libraries contain graphic sexual material that should not be available to children. Some books’ “sole purpose is sexual gratification,” said West Virginia Del. Brandon Steele (R), who introduced a bill that would allow librarians to be prosecuted for giving obscene titles to minors.

..

I don't have a good answer to your question, but I'm hoping to understand this better to form my answer.

In your view, or anyone else who wants to chime in, could there be a book so obscene or bad in any other way that we would want to 1) ban it from schools or libraries or 2) prosecute a librarian for providing the book to a minor?

Should the number of banned books always be zero?

What do we call it if an adult book (with depictions of sex or violence) is in an elementary school library and people complain about that. Are they in favor of censorship and banning books? Can we compare them to nazis? Is there a different way to describe that?

These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones.

Easy answer: it's 2024, not 1950. Your kids can access EVERYTHING, and i mean EVERYTHING just with their smart phones. Images, videos, hate-mongering....all the best, and very much the worst, that the world has to offer.

The idea here is that we should worry about a kid picking up an actual, physical book in 2024?

Either these parents don't have kids, or they have no clue what "the internet" is. In either case, let the professional librarians that we pay sort it out. And more books are ALWAYS better than less....this America, not Russia or North Korea. Let THOSE chaps ban all the books they want. We're supposed to be better than that.

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

You have every right to complain to the Principal as it may allow them to implement a better system for what is or what isn’t appropriate for particular children if a child requests a book. A legitimate question: Do believe that book should be banned if it’s not “pornography” if you find it inappropriate for your child?

Thank you for the thoughtful discussion. I guess I'm trying to understand what it means for a book to be "banned". If I complain and the book is removed from the elementary library, did I/we just ban a book? Will it show up on "banned book lists" and be used to prove that conservatives are wacky religious nuts?

To answer your question...if I think the book is just an adult book with graphic sex and violence that, imo, isn't appropriate for a 9 year old, I would complain that it is in an elementary school library. I wouldn't want it removed from all libraries everywhere.

I would also wonder why the librarian is, in this scenario, personally suggesting the book to my 9 year old. I realize I'm coming up with an extreme example. I think I'm trying to find some common ground.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Is this the country we want to live in??

Red states threaten librarians with prison — as blue states work to protect them

Sam Lee, a leader of the Connecticut Library Association, heads to work these days torn between hope and fear.

She’s encouraged because legislators in her state proposed a bill this year making it harder for school boards to ban library books. But she’s fearful because Connecticut, like America, is seeing a sustained surge in book challenges — and she wonders if objectors will see the legislation as a reason to file more complaints.

“I would like to be optimistic,” Lee said. “But having been in my position for the last few years … I don’t know, it really feels like it’s been forever. And I am worried the book banners are just going to be emboldened.”

The bill in Connecticut, pending before an education committee, is one of a raft of measures advancing nationwide that seek to do things like prohibit book bans or forbid the harassment of school and public librarians — the first such wave in the country, said John Chrastka, director of library advocacy group EveryLibrary. Legislators in 22 mostly blue states have proposed 57 such bills so far this year, and two have become law, according to a Washington Post analysis of state legislative databases and an EveryLibrary legislative tracker.

But the library-friendly measures are being outpaced by bills in mostly red states that aim to restrict which books libraries can offer and threaten librarians with prison or thousands in fines for handing out “obscene” or “harmful” titles. At least 27 states are considering 100 such bills this year, three of which have become law, The Post found. That adds to nearly a dozen similar measures enacted over the last three years across 10 states.

Lawmakers proposing restrictive bills contend they are necessary because school and public libraries contain graphic sexual material that should not be available to children. Some books’ “sole purpose is sexual gratification,” said West Virginia Del. Brandon Steele (R), who introduced a bill that would allow librarians to be prosecuted for giving obscene titles to minors.

..

I don't have a good answer to your question, but I'm hoping to understand this better to form my answer.

In your view, or anyone else who wants to chime in, could there be a book so obscene or bad in any other way that we would want to 1) ban it from schools or libraries or 2) prosecute a librarian for providing the book to a minor?

Should the number of banned books always be zero?

What do we call it if an adult book (with depictions of sex or violence) is in an elementary school library and people complain about that. Are they in favor of censorship and banning books? Can we compare them to nazis? Is there a different way to describe that?

These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones.

Easy answer: it's 2024, not 1950. Your kids can access EVERYTHING, and i mean EVERYTHING just with their smart phones. Images, videos, hate-mongering....all the best, and very much the worst, that the world has to offer.

The idea here is that we should worry about a kid picking up an actual, physical book in 2024?

Either these parents don't have kids, or they have no clue what "the internet" is. In either case, let the professional librarians that we pay sort it out. And more books are ALWAYS better than less....this America, not Russia or North Korea. Let THOSE chaps ban all the books they want. We're supposed to be better than that.

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

You have every right to complain to the Principal as it may allow them to implement a better system for what is or what isn’t appropriate for particular children if a child requests a book. A legitimate question: Do believe that book should be banned if it’s not “pornography” if you find it inappropriate for your child?

Thank you for the thoughtful discussion. I guess I'm trying to understand what it means for a book to be "banned". If I complain and the book is removed from the elementary library, did I/we just ban a book? Will it show up on "banned book lists" and be used to prove that conservatives are wacky religious nuts?

To answer your question...if I think the book is just an adult book with graphic sex and violence that, imo, isn't appropriate for a 9 year old, I would complain that it is in an elementary school library. I wouldn't want it removed from all libraries everywhere.

I would also wonder why the librarian is, in this scenario, personally suggesting the book to my 9 year old. I realize I'm coming up with an extreme example. I think I'm trying to find some common ground.

Thanks. “Banning” is a loose definition, I have found. Restricted isn’t banned, in my opinion. I am not sure under what example a librarian would suggest any book without being prompted. Most librarians are just normal people doing normal things. We can always find extremes but it seems like more and more, we manage to the extremes at both ends. I have seen books banned or restricted that have been in libraries for decades with no complaints. Certain books are in appropriate for all children and some booms may be deemed inappropriate for your child based on your view. Another parent may have another view. It has all become so ridiculous. In “better times”, parents to too busy working and didn’t have 24 hour media telling them what to do.

Also, mistakes are made. Wasn’t there incest in Oedipus? Some districts have banned it…..that’s where we are today.

[MDlaxfan76]

Is this the country we want to live in??

Red states threaten librarians with prison — as blue states work to protect them

Sam Lee, a leader of the Connecticut Library Association, heads to work these days torn between hope and fear.

She’s encouraged because legislators in her state proposed a bill this year making it harder for school boards to ban library books. But she’s fearful because Connecticut, like America, is seeing a sustained surge in book challenges — and she wonders if objectors will see the legislation as a reason to file more complaints.

“I would like to be optimistic,” Lee said. “But having been in my position for the last few years … I don’t know, it really feels like it’s been forever. And I am worried the book banners are just going to be emboldened.”

The bill in Connecticut, pending before an education committee, is one of a raft of measures advancing nationwide that seek to do things like prohibit book bans or forbid the harassment of school and public librarians — the first such wave in the country, said John Chrastka, director of library advocacy group EveryLibrary. Legislators in 22 mostly blue states have proposed 57 such bills so far this year, and two have become law, according to a Washington Post analysis of state legislative databases and an EveryLibrary legislative tracker.

But the library-friendly measures are being outpaced by bills in mostly red states that aim to restrict which books libraries can offer and threaten librarians with prison or thousands in fines for handing out “obscene” or “harmful” titles. At least 27 states are considering 100 such bills this year, three of which have become law, The Post found. That adds to nearly a dozen similar measures enacted over the last three years across 10 states.

Lawmakers proposing restrictive bills contend they are necessary because school and public libraries contain graphic sexual material that should not be available to children. Some books’ “sole purpose is sexual gratification,” said West Virginia Del. Brandon Steele (R), who introduced a bill that would allow librarians to be prosecuted for giving obscene titles to minors.

..

I don't have a good answer to your question, but I'm hoping to understand this better to form my answer.

In your view, or anyone else who wants to chime in, could there be a book so obscene or bad in any other way that we would want to 1) ban it from schools or libraries or 2) prosecute a librarian for providing the book to a minor?

Should the number of banned books always be zero?

What do we call it if an adult book (with depictions of sex or violence) is in an elementary school library and people complain about that. Are they in favor of censorship and banning books? Can we compare them to nazis? Is there a different way to describe that?

These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones.

Easy answer: it's 2024, not 1950. Your kids can access EVERYTHING, and i mean EVERYTHING just with their smart phones. Images, videos, hate-mongering....all the best, and very much the worst, that the world has to offer.

The idea here is that we should worry about a kid picking up an actual, physical book in 2024?

Either these parents don't have kids, or they have no clue what "the internet" is. In either case, let the professional librarians that we pay sort it out. And more books are ALWAYS better than less....this America, not Russia or North Korea. Let THOSE chaps ban all the books they want. We're supposed to be better than that.

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

You have every right to complain to the Principal as it may allow them to implement a better system for what is or what isn’t appropriate for particular children if a child requests a book. A legitimate question: Do believe that book should be banned if it’s not “pornography” if you find it inappropriate for your child?

Thank you for the thoughtful discussion. I guess I'm trying to understand what it means for a book to be "banned". If I complain and the book is removed from the elementary library, did I/we just ban a book? Will it show up on "banned book lists" and be used to prove that conservatives are wacky religious nuts?

To answer your question...if I think the book is just an adult book with graphic sex and violence that, imo, isn't appropriate for a 9 year old, I would complain that it is in an elementary school library. I wouldn't want it removed from all libraries everywhere.

I would also wonder why the librarian is, in this scenario, personally suggesting the book to my 9 year old. I realize I'm coming up with an extreme example. I think I'm trying to find some common ground.

I think that’s an entirely reasonable and indeed quite normal response to an explicit graphic sex book in an early elementary school library. Fortunately, I think we probably would find such to be extremely rare, as librarians would be very unlikely to allow or promote such.

If one had that extreme situation, I’d start with a civil discussion with the librarian to find out what logic or information I might be missing. If I found the response to be uncivil or otherwise unsatisfactory I’d meet with the principal to make sure they knew of the situation. I’d have strong confidence that any such extreme situation would be properly addressed, at a minimum keeping such material away from open access with out supervision, including my own preferences for my specific child. If not, I might move my child.

However, what is getting challenged, at all age levels, are books and information that are simply not in some peoples’ view within their preferred proscription for ‘normal’ or ‘inoffensive’. They wish to control not only what their children read or learn, they demand control of other parents’ children’s access and learning too. Whether related to gender or sexuality or to history, angry biases of the few are seeking control of everyone.

I don’t think book bans are ever the right answer for any public institutions, all the more so when there are common sense approaches which are far less draconian and far less intrusive to other parents’ preferences.

[Typical Lax Dad]

A friend of mine lives in Newtown. Kids were Sandy Hook kids. He obsessed over this for weeks because his wife was part of a group email that pushed this issue forward….. he went on and on about what kids should or shouldn’t be doing. I reminded him that he has a son that’s a pot head and a daughter that’s a cheerleader and no high school or elementary school group is more sexualized than cheerleaders….. he shrugged his shoulders and said liberals are taking over schools….

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/ne ... l-library/

[ohmilax34]

I don't have a good answer to your question, but I'm hoping to understand this better to form my answer.

In your view, or anyone else who wants to chime in, could there be a book so obscene or bad in any other way that we would want to 1) ban it from schools or libraries or 2) prosecute a librarian for providing the book to a minor?

Should the number of banned books always be zero?

What do we call it if an adult book (with depictions of sex or violence) is in an elementary school library and people complain about that. Are they in favor of censorship and banning books? Can we compare them to nazis? Is there a different way to describe that?

These are actual questions, not rhetorical ones.

OML34, you advance specific examples that should - of COURSE - be dealt with responsibly and, i believe, as conservatively as possible to protect young children from things like pornography.

Who gets to decide?

The laws discussed in the article i posted are much more pernicious - in my opinion - with respect to the types of censorship certain elements of our society wish to impose on others. I'll assume you read the post closely.

Instead of the broad strokes concerning the most far-out, frightful examples you can conjure...what do you think about the levels of censorship discussed in the article, and the idea of criminalizing activity by library staff when it come to the same?

..

Hi Dis! Thanks for continuing the discussion. I haven’t read the full article, but I will. There were also links to other interesting articles on the same topic when I went to read it.

[a fan]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

Did you access things surrounding sex, or see a rated R movie before you were 18? How? For me? Older brothers and sisters of friends. Today? Those older brothers and sisters all have smart phones and laptops.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

I'm suspecting your simply being non-specific and conversational here with your writing when you write "school librarian GAVE my son a book". He'd have to ask for the book, right?

We had a nice conversation about this a couple years back when book banning and DeSantis tried to hold teachers personally responsible for "teaching "the wrong things", or using "the wrong books".


A poster asked me a similar question to yours then: "do you want your school teaching your daughter things that you don't approve of...."

My answer was "yes".

Why do I feel this way? Because of a very simple question: if we're going to force public school to teach kids exactly the way "the parents" want: please tell me, who's parents get to make that call?

In other words, at your son's school: do you want me in charge of the books and curricula? I get to dictate what your son sees and reads? What he's taught? Do you want to hand me this power?

I'm willing to trade the chance that my daughter might see something I don't want her to see, for more freedom for the OTHER kids at her school, and not make choices for those other kids, or their parents.

Moreover, I'm a moderate. I don't want the far left or far right telling my kid what she can't read. Example? Far lefties have pulled Mark Twain, and in particular, Huck Finn from some shelves. It's one of my favorite books. I don't want some parent keeping my kid from accessing that wonderful book.

So I look to the librarians as an obvious arbiter as to what goes on the shelves. Are they gonna be perfect? Heck no. But I'd rather let them choose what's on those shelves than let some nutjob parents on both the left and right whittle the selection down to nothing for whatever crazy reason they want to cite.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

Did you access things surrounding sex, or see a rated R movie before you were 18? How? For me? Older brothers and sisters of friends. Today? Those older brothers and sisters all have smart phones and laptops.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

I'm suspecting your simply being non-specific and conversational here with your writing when you write "school librarian GAVE my son a book". He'd have to ask for the book, right?

We had a nice conversation about this a couple years back when book banning and DeSantis tried to hold teachers personally responsible for "teaching "the wrong things", or using "the wrong books".


A poster asked me a similar question to yours then: "do you want your school teaching your daughter things that you don't approve of...."

My answer was "yes".

Why do I feel this way? Because of a very simple question: if we're going to force public school to teach kids exactly the way "the parents" want: please tell me, who's parents get to make that call?

In other words, at your son's school: do you want me in charge of the books and curricula? I get to dictate what your son sees and reads? What he's taught? Do you want to hand me this power?

I'm willing to trade the chance that my daughter might see something I don't want her to see, for more freedom for the OTHER kids at her school, and not make choices for those other kids, or their parents.

Moreover, I'm a moderate. I don't want the far left or far right telling my kid what she can't read. Example? Far lefties have pulled Mark Twain, and in particular, Huck Finn from some shelves. It's one of my favorite books. I don't want some parent keeping my kid from accessing that wonderful book.

So I look to the librarians as an obvious arbiter as to what goes on the shelves. Are they gonna be perfect? Heck no. But I'd rather let them choose what's on those shelves than let some nutjob parents on both the left and right whittle the selection down to nothing for whatever crazy reason they want to cite.

Exactly…..BTW, the first time I ever saw pornography was when I was 7 or 8…..one of the older kids, probably a 6th or 7th grader had a deck of pornographic playing cards. Hard porn…. I remember asking “what’s that white stuff…?” I was 7 or 8 because we moved from that neighborhood prior to the start of 3rd grade.

[jhu72]

Crenshaw is dead to me: https://x.com/simonateba/status/1779146033542434881

I am familiar with Eddie Gallagher and his story, but not the recent news regarding Lying Dan.

....I don't understand. What motive does Crenshaw have to screw this man over?

In other words: I'm at a loss to understand how screwing this man over helps Crenshaw's political career.

Don’t know, but his actions and words speak volumes.

I guess.....it's just .....weird. How the F does helping a Seal get out of jail not HELP your political career?

Especially as a Republican. This doesn't make any sense, and I'm left wondering if there's another side, or sides, to this story.

For me, the minute I hear about a Seal being tried for War Crimes, my response is: then put his boss in jail for putting him in some F"ed up situation in country with what is usually shaky legal standing....if that.

... I am no fan of Buck the Weasel, but just watching the video, Gallagher's story doesn't hang together. He is lying vis a vis his own motivation. Not surprising this sucks in the usual suspects. It is easy to understand Crenshaw's motivation if you remember the Gallagher case.

[PizzaSnake]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

Did you access things surrounding sex, or see a rated R movie before you were 18? How? For me? Older brothers and sisters of friends. Today? Those older brothers and sisters all have smart phones and laptops.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

I'm suspecting your simply being non-specific and conversational here with your writing when you write "school librarian GAVE my son a book". He'd have to ask for the book, right?

We had a nice conversation about this a couple years back when book banning and DeSantis tried to hold teachers personally responsible for "teaching "the wrong things", or using "the wrong books".


A poster asked me a similar question to yours then: "do you want your school teaching your daughter things that you don't approve of...."

My answer was "yes".

Why do I feel this way? Because of a very simple question: if we're going to force public school to teach kids exactly the way "the parents" want: please tell me, who's parents get to make that call?

In other words, at your son's school: do you want me in charge of the books and curricula? I get to dictate what your son sees and reads? What he's taught? Do you want to hand me this power?

I'm willing to trade the chance that my daughter might see something I don't want her to see, for more freedom for the OTHER kids at her school, and not make choices for those other kids, or their parents.

Moreover, I'm a moderate. I don't want the far left or far right telling my kid what she can't read. Example? Far lefties have pulled Mark Twain, and in particular, Huck Finn from some shelves. It's one of my favorite books. I don't want some parent keeping my kid from accessing that wonderful book.

So I look to the librarians as an obvious arbiter as to what goes on the shelves. Are they gonna be perfect? Heck no. But I'd rather let them choose what's on those shelves than let some nutjob parents on both the left and right whittle the selection down to nothing for whatever crazy reason they want to cite.

Remember this?

" A new effort to sanitize “Huckleberry Finn” comes from Alan Gribben, a professor of English at Auburn University, at Montgomery, Ala., who has produced a new edition of Twain’s novel that replaces the word “n****r” with “slave.” N****r, which appears in the book more than 200 times, was a common racial epithet in the antebellum South, used by Twain as part of his characters’ vernacular speech and as a reflection of mid-19th-century social attitudes along the Mississippi River."

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/books/07huck.html

I mean, if we are going to start editing, and re-editing, books, how about the "good book?" Plenty of iffy stuff in there: rape, murder, genocide, incest, etc. But we don't, and why not? Because it provides context that informs the stories. Providing access to works of art does not constitute a blanket endorsement of the totality, but freedom to experience and decide for one's self what is meaningful, laudable, or worthy of scorn and condemnation.

Main thing is, whose call is it? Not mine, not yours -- it is up to the individual.

[cradleandshoot]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

Did you access things surrounding sex, or see a rated R movie before you were 18? How? For me? Older brothers and sisters of friends. Today? Those older brothers and sisters all have smart phones and laptops.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

I'm suspecting your simply being non-specific and conversational here with your writing when you write "school librarian GAVE my son a book". He'd have to ask for the book, right?

We had a nice conversation about this a couple years back when book banning and DeSantis tried to hold teachers personally responsible for "teaching "the wrong things", or using "the wrong books".


A poster asked me a similar question to yours then: "do you want your school teaching your daughter things that you don't approve of...."

My answer was "yes".

Why do I feel this way? Because of a very simple question: if we're going to force public school to teach kids exactly the way "the parents" want: please tell me, who's parents get to make that call?

In other words, at your son's school: do you want me in charge of the books and curricula? I get to dictate what your son sees and reads? What he's taught? Do you want to hand me this power?

I'm willing to trade the chance that my daughter might see something I don't want her to see, for more freedom for the OTHER kids at her school, and not make choices for those other kids, or their parents.

Moreover, I'm a moderate. I don't want the far left or far right telling my kid what she can't read. Example? Far lefties have pulled Mark Twain, and in particular, Huck Finn from some shelves. It's one of my favorite books. I don't want some parent keeping my kid from accessing that wonderful book.

So I look to the librarians as an obvious arbiter as to what goes on the shelves. Are they gonna be perfect? Heck no. But I'd rather let them choose what's on those shelves than let some nutjob parents on both the left and right whittle the selection down to nothing for whatever crazy reason they want to cite.

+1 great post a Fan. Your usage of common sense goes a long way. In my Catholic HS I would have very much appreciated Playboys in the library but that wasn't going to happen. You make a great point bringing up the Adventures of Tom Sawyer. Mr Clemmons composed his story using the vernacular the era. Who knew that a 100 plus years later certain segments of our society would have an industrial strength hissy fit about Mark Twains use of the n word. They are probably the same people who could watch Pulp Fiction and not bat an eyelash over Tarantino going overboard with his usage of the n word in that film.

[a fan]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

Did you access things surrounding sex, or see a rated R movie before you were 18? How? For me? Older brothers and sisters of friends. Today? Those older brothers and sisters all have smart phones and laptops.

So, in my own life, if my son’s school’s librarian gave my son a book with graphic sexual content I would complain to the principal. Is that unreasonable?

I'm suspecting your simply being non-specific and conversational here with your writing when you write "school librarian GAVE my son a book". He'd have to ask for the book, right?

We had a nice conversation about this a couple years back when book banning and DeSantis tried to hold teachers personally responsible for "teaching "the wrong things", or using "the wrong books".


A poster asked me a similar question to yours then: "do you want your school teaching your daughter things that you don't approve of...."

My answer was "yes".

Why do I feel this way? Because of a very simple question: if we're going to force public school to teach kids exactly the way "the parents" want: please tell me, who's parents get to make that call?

In other words, at your son's school: do you want me in charge of the books and curricula? I get to dictate what your son sees and reads? What he's taught? Do you want to hand me this power?

I'm willing to trade the chance that my daughter might see something I don't want her to see, for more freedom for the OTHER kids at her school, and not make choices for those other kids, or their parents.

Moreover, I'm a moderate. I don't want the far left or far right telling my kid what she can't read. Example? Far lefties have pulled Mark Twain, and in particular, Huck Finn from some shelves. It's one of my favorite books. I don't want some parent keeping my kid from accessing that wonderful book.

So I look to the librarians as an obvious arbiter as to what goes on the shelves. Are they gonna be perfect? Heck no. But I'd rather let them choose what's on those shelves than let some nutjob parents on both the left and right whittle the selection down to nothing for whatever crazy reason they want to cite.

Remember this?

" A new effort to sanitize “Huckleberry Finn” comes from Alan Gribben, a professor of English at Auburn University, at Montgomery, Ala., who has produced a new edition of Twain’s novel that replaces the word “n****r” with “slave.” N****r, which appears in the book more than 200 times, was a common racial epithet in the antebellum South, used by Twain as part of his characters’ vernacular speech and as a reflection of mid-19th-century social attitudes along the Mississippi River."

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/books/07huck.html

I mean, if we are going to start editing, and re-editing, books, how about the "good book?" Plenty of iffy stuff in there: rape, murder, genocide, incest, etc. But we don't, and why not? Because it provides context that informs the stories. Providing access to works of art does not constitute a blanket endorsement of the totality, but freedom to experience and decide for one's self what is meaningful, laudable, or worthy of scorn and condemnation.

Main thing is, whose call is it? Not mine, not yours -- it is up to the individual.

Crazy thing is? Alan Gribben is a Twain specialist. Of all the people to screw with his writings? You'd think he'd be PROTECTING his writings, not the other way around.

And the thing about this whole line of thinking, whether from left or right? it treats the reader like they're freaking morons who can't think, read, and interpret things for themselves.

BTW...this is why a former prof explained to me that the political spectrum is a circle, and that he far left and the far right meet, and try to take sh9t away from you, albeit for different reasons. I don't CARE what the reasons are....stop F'ing with my books.

As a book lover? Anyone who wants to get between me (or my kid) and a book can F right off....left, right, center, makes no difference to me what your political leanings are. Move to Russia or N Korean if you want to pull sh(t like this.

And take your book burning stupidity with you. You'll fit right in.

[old salt]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

I have friends who are giving their kids 5G flip phones (I have one for myself)
They can ph & text but can't access social media.

[a fan]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

I have friends who are giving their kids 5G flip phones (I have one for myself)
They can ph & text but can't access social media.

Same. My point is: think older brothers and sisters who do indeed have access.

....same as it was for all of us as kids when it came to anything verboten like R movies etc.

Heck, when I was a kid? George Carlin on vinyl was verboten for most households, let alone Richard Pryor. Yet we got 'em somehow.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

I have friends who are giving their kids 5G flip phones (I have one for myself)
They can ph & text but can't access social media.

Same. My point is: think older brothers and sisters who do indeed have access.

....same as it was for all of us as kids when it came to anything verboten like R movies etc.

Heck, when I was a kid? George Carlin on vinyl was verboten for most households, let alone Richard Pryor. Yet we got 'em somehow.....

How about the dreaded sleep over? Who the hell knows what the kids have seen and done…..they sure as hell ain’t telling mom and dad.

[cradleandshoot]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

I have friends who are giving their kids 5G flip phones (I have one for myself)
They can ph & text but can't access social media.

Same. My point is: think older brothers and sisters who do indeed have access.

....same as it was for all of us as kids when it came to anything verboten like R movies etc.

Heck, when I was a kid? George Carlin on vinyl was verboten for most households, let alone Richard Pryor. Yet we got 'em somehow.....

George Carlin and Cheech and Chong caused parents in the 70s an enormous amount of stress. " It's me Dave, open up I got the stuff. Dave's not here man" When all your dreams go up in smoke... If parents were REALLY lucky their children never listened to the Dirty Doctor. I found out recently that John Valby is still as popular today with college students as he was 40 plus years ago.

Ohhh eat bite suck f**k gobble nibble chew, nipple bosom hair pie finger f**k screw. Valby use to say that within the first 5 minutes of his performance he had just offended everybody in the audience. I'm still amazed that in the world political correctness that all of these years later young college students still gravitate towards the dirty doctor. I posted a link years ago on the old forum to Lax Fidelis. He was totally appalled at the crassness and vulgarity. How a guy with a PhD in classical music and piano from Cornell becomes so popular with his dirty little ditties among young college students use to make Valby say...my parents are so proud of me...

[a fan]

I made reference to an elementary school. My 9 year old attends an elementary school for 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. He's in 4th grade. I don't know many kids in 4th who have a smart phone. My son's computer access is somewhat limited by the amount of time we allow him to be on a computer and the access his school allows on their devices.

My daughter doesn't have a smart phone, either. But think about how life was when we were kids.

I have friends who are giving their kids 5G flip phones (I have one for myself)
They can ph & text but can't access social media.

Same. My point is: think older brothers and sisters who do indeed have access.

....same as it was for all of us as kids when it came to anything verboten like R movies etc.

Heck, when I was a kid? George Carlin on vinyl was verboten for most households, let alone Richard Pryor. Yet we got 'em somehow.....

George Carlin and Cheech and Chong caused parents in the 70s an enormous amount of stress. " It's me Dave, open up I got the stuff. Dave's not here man" When all your dreams go up in smoke... If parents were REALLY lucky their children never listened to the Dirty Doctor. I found out recently that John Valby is still as popular today with college students as he was 40 plus years ago.

Ohhh eat bite suck f**k gobble nibble chew, nipple bosom hair pie finger f**k screw. Valby use to say that within the first 5 minutes of his performance he had just offended everybody in the audience. I'm still amazed that in the world political correctness that all of these years later young college students still gravitate towards the dirty doctor. I posted a link years ago on the old forum to Lax Fidelis. He was totally appalled at the crassness and vulgarity. How a guy with a PhD in classical music and piano from Cornell becomes so popular with his dirty little ditties among young college students use to make Valby say...my parents are so proud of me...

100%. You used to HIDE these albums from your parents back in the day. My how times have changed......