Tewaaraton Award 2024

[NYlax222]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

[Finster]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

[MDlaxfan76]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

If everything else held steady AND Yale made it Memorial Day weekend (I don't think they'd have to win it all, but he'd need to go out swinging), I think Brandau would be such a huge part of the reason for that degree of team success that it would be his. That's not likely, but remains possible. Even final 8 is possible. Just have to perform against top teams at similar level.

There's a bunch of winners who didn't make it to Memorial Day, multiple who didn't make it to the weekend.

And I'm a Shellenberger fan and would love to see it corrected; just does so much to make everyone better...but I love that he cares far more about the Championship than personal awards.

[Hooz123]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

[BetweenTheLines]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

[Hooz123]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

You just proved one of my earlier points - the politics. See 2014. I'd argue Shelly's story line and the legacy is too juicy to pass up. I'd even even argue the Tewaaraton needs him more than he even cares about the award. But sure, if they want to take a permanent black eye and lose even more cred, pick Brandau over Shelly in 2024 Snub him not once, but twice! People will rag on that for years and years to come. Eventually it will grow into some sarcastic phrase when someone is shocked or gets swindled in the lacrosse community, "he's pulling a Brandau" One of the greatest players to ever play misses out for a ball hog on a mid team nobody remembers. Shelly is going to be an icon of the game, a real brand ambassador for the sport. This is like the NBA giving Bernard King the MVP in '84 instead of Larry Bird just because King led the league in pts/game. Nobody remembers Bernard King.

[Hooz123]

But at the end of the day, Brandau can have it...Shelly wants the title.

[Gobigred]

But at the end of the day, Brandau can have it...Shelly wants the title.

Maybe it's past time for you to move on. You made your point...ad nauseam. As of now, it's a toss-up between the two, in my opinion.

[blue angels]

But at the end of the day, Brandau can have it...Shelly wants the title.

Maybe it's past time for you to move on. You made your point...ad nauseam. As of now, it's a toss-up between the two, in my opinion.

I don’t know, but Pretty sure his posts are just tongue in cheek.

[Finster]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

If everything else held steady AND Yale made it Memorial Day weekend (I don't think they'd have to win it all, but he'd need to go out swinging), I think Brandau would be such a huge part of the reason for that degree of team success that it would be his. That's not likely, but remains possible. Even final 8 is possible. Just have to perform against top teams at similar level.

There's a bunch of winners who didn't make it to Memorial Day, multiple who didn't make it to the weekend.

And I'm a Shellenberger fan and would love to see it corrected; just does so much to make everyone better...but I love that he cares far more about the Championship than personal awards.

+1 on everything you said here in your post

[Farfromgeneva]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

Actually the more events the more you more towards the mean. Your argument is sort of anti math. Even in a non Gaussian world.

What you need to adjust for is vol-however that’s expressed in a lacrosse players performance because that’s what makes the model work and how Robert Scholes f’ed up which led to Jimmy Cagney being a jerkoff at the Fed NY offices in 1998 which led to everyone grifting their shoulders and going f**k that guy and his whole predecessor Ace Feb 2008 which led to the financial crisis.

Btw it’s not just Lyons’s their missing also sharp and johnson. It’s a miracle they’ve come this far. I think Brandau is still overrated but this argument is too strong for being what it is above.

Not to mention that pts and shots may not be correlated the way you think. But one a conclusion that needed a support backed into there.

[Farfromgeneva]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

I chat w Case Matheis occasionally professionally and even though he’s burnt a bit out on lacrosse I know what he’s answer.

[Farfromgeneva]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

Change one word and I got the worm for the Shellenberger fans

https://youtu.be/a7D3GPKNcSI?si=nKlNTkNcNV7m56JM

[Farfromgeneva]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

You just proved one of my earlier points - the politics. See 2014. I'd argue Shelly's story line and the legacy is too juicy to pass up. I'd even even argue the Tewaaraton needs him more than he even cares about the award. But sure, if they want to take a permanent black eye and lose even more cred, pick Brandau over Shelly in 2024 Snub him not once, but twice! People will rag on that for years and years to come. Eventually it will grow into some sarcastic phrase when someone is shocked or gets swindled in the lacrosse community, "he's pulling a Brandau" One of the greatest players to ever play misses out for a ball hog on a mid team nobody remembers. Shelly is going to be an icon of the game, a real brand ambassador for the sport. This is like the NBA giving Bernard King the MVP in '84 instead of Larry Bird just because King led the league in pts/game. Nobody remembers Bernard King.

Wow you are way off in history or don’t know NYC when you say no one know Bernard king. There’s a whole ahistorical thing going on where where reality isn’t reality

[Hooz123]

hm

[mdk01]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

If everything else held steady AND Yale made it Memorial Day weekend (I don't think they'd have to win it all, but he'd need to go out swinging), I think Brandau would be such a huge part of the reason for that degree of team success that it would be his. That's not likely, but remains possible. Even final 8 is possible. Just have to perform against top teams at similar level.

There's a bunch of winners who didn't make it to Memorial Day, multiple who didn't make it to the weekend.

And I'm a Shellenberger fan and would love to see it corrected; just does so much to make everyone better...but I love that he cares far more about the Championship than personal awards.

Brandau made quite a case for himself with a 20 point week. You make a good point about the need to reach the final 8. If he keeps up anything like this pace and Yale played MDW I think it's his.

[wgdsr]

But at the end of the day, Brandau can have it...Shelly wants the title.

Maybe it's past time for you to move on. You made your point...ad nauseam. As of now, it's a toss-up between the two, in my opinion.

I don’t know, but Pretty sure his posts are just tongue in cheek.

believe or not, i don't believe they are.

[wgdsr]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

You just proved one of my earlier points - the politics. See 2014. I'd argue Shelly's story line and the legacy is too juicy to pass up. I'd even even argue the Tewaaraton needs him more than he even cares about the award. But sure, if they want to take a permanent black eye and lose even more cred, pick Brandau over Shelly in 2024 Snub him not once, but twice! People will rag on that for years and years to come. Eventually it will grow into some sarcastic phrase when someone is shocked or gets swindled in the lacrosse community, "he's pulling a Brandau" One of the greatest players to ever play misses out for a ball hog on a mid team nobody remembers. Shelly is going to be an icon of the game, a real brand ambassador for the sport. This is like the NBA giving Bernard King the MVP in '84 instead of Larry Bird just because King led the league in pts/game. Nobody remembers Bernard King.

Wow you are way off in history or don’t know NYC when you say no one know Bernard king. There’s a whole ahistorical thing going on where where reality isn’t reality

fitty and fitty when that was news.

[pcowlax]

But at the end of the day, Brandau can have it...Shelly wants the title.

Maybe it's past time for you to move on. You made your point...ad nauseam. As of now, it's a toss-up between the two, in my opinion.

I don’t know, but Pretty sure his posts are just tongue in cheek.

believe or not, i don't believe they are.

Embarrassing as it is to say, I think you are right. The Tewaaraton needs Shelly more than it needs him. Riiiight. Shelly is a great player. He is not some sort of historic figure. He has played his whole career surrounded by absurd offensive talent. The idea that anyone would even bring up who is worth more to their team this year, Shelly or Brandau, is insane. Take Brandau off Yale and they have 5 losses. Take Shelly off UVA and they barely score fewer goals per game. He is their best player and the straw that stirs the drink but that team has 10 legit offensive options. Due to injury, he fell off the last half of last year and didn’t earn the award. We will see this year. If UVA wins the natty, Shelly wins regardless of what anyone else does the rest of the season. If they don’t make Memorial Day, there is a legit chance he doesn’t win.

[Chousnake]

Both excellent players, but i don't agree that leading the nation in PPG should be final arbiter, for the good reasons cited by other on this thread. And its no knock at all on Brandau to point out that quality of opponent should matter, and the Ivy teams not exactly known this year for elite defenses. Not knocking either player, just dont' think leading nation in points should determine the award.

There's 'leading the nation in PPG', then there's REALLY leading the nation in PPG. Brandau is so far out there, you have to consider the spread regardless of who they play.

And ftr, I still think Shellenberger deserves it and is likeliest to win (I just don't think Yale is going to get far enough in the tournament, if they even make it...and Brandau probably needs that to occur...if Yale did win the Natty, my gut tells me he'd in the Tewey rather easily, in spite of how great Shellenberger is)

I doubt anyone outside of New England agrees IMO. His points/spread argument isn't compelling enough... That's the Colt Brennan argument, and nobody thinks Colt Brennan deserved the Heisman in 2006 just because he threw for 58 TDs and 5500 yards. That happens when you throw the ball almost 600 times in a season.

Colt Brennan is a stretch. That's Chris Gray at BU in 2019 and, you're right, he wasn't a finalist nor did he deserve it.

Heck, Yale has a stronger schedule than Albany did in 2014 or 2015 when they got bounced in quarters and the Thompsons still won.

Brandau has 68 points in 10 games on 83 shots because Lyons is out, and Yale is decimated with injuries. Joey Spallina had 59pts in 10 games on 75 shots. Basically the same "efficiency output" to quantify all of this. Shelly is 48pts for 59 shots through 10 games, so if you do the math, Shelly would have literally the same points (68) as Brandau at the 83 shots mark. I get this isn't perfect, but at least it's some metric to emphasize efficiency, volume, and usage.

Who compares points to shots? It's not even close to perfect.

Even if Brandau continues pouring in stats at this clip, they play Dartmouth, Hofstra, Albany, and Princeton to finish the year. UVa finishes the season with the #1, #3, and #8 teams, then the ACC tournament. Do people really think another 10 point game vs. Hofstra is really that impressive as opposed to Shelly averaging a workmanlike 4pts/game here on out? Come on....let's get serious. Sorry, Brandau is going to get lost in the shuffle despite his impressive stats.

But hey, just my opinion. I just don't think anyone can argue a) he's a better lacrosse player than Shelly, or b) he's any more deserving. More important to his team? I would even argue Shelly is just as important to UVa as Brandau is to Yale. So, at the end of the day, I don't see what variable gives Brandau the edge. Purely aggregate stats? Meh...

If Brandau makes it to Memorial day, then let's check back in. Until then, this isn't a real debate (but it's fun either way). Just my two cents

It IS a real debate. And it's specifically about (b). And it's a toss up so far.

I'm not even advocating for Brandau, but the only shuffle he'll get lost in is your own headcanon final 5 of Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, Shelly, and Shelly.

2014... you picking Jordan Wolf, national champion, #2 in goals and #3 in points nationally; or the Thompsons?

You just proved one of my earlier points - the politics. See 2014. I'd argue Shelly's story line and the legacy is too juicy to pass up. I'd even even argue the Tewaaraton needs him more than he even cares about the award. But sure, if they want to take a permanent black eye and lose even more cred, pick Brandau over Shelly in 2024 Snub him not once, but twice! People will rag on that for years and years to come. Eventually it will grow into some sarcastic phrase when someone is shocked or gets swindled in the lacrosse community, "he's pulling a Brandau" One of the greatest players to ever play misses out for a ball hog on a mid team nobody remembers. Shelly is going to be an icon of the game, a real brand ambassador for the sport. This is like the NBA giving Bernard King the MVP in '84 instead of Larry Bird just because King led the league in pts/game. Nobody remembers Bernard King.

Just stop. This post is kind of over the top and I am being somewhat measured. You lost me at calling Yale, a team that won the championship in 2018, lost the title game in 2019 and has been in the tournament every year since 2015 a mid team nobody remembers???? And Shelly is a great player, but I think the game will survive if he doesn't win the award. When you consider that people here legitimately debate who should have won it last year among multiple deserving players and are having the same legitimate debate this season with multiple deserving players, it is pretty clear that Shelly is not a generational player. I'm not saying that to put Shelly down. I'm just pointing out that there are many players that are at his level right now and that he is not head and shoulders above them.

And if he doesn't win the award this year, it will not really matter for the survival and reputation of the sport. Some great players never won the award and went on to do great things for the sport (Rabil). And there have been some questionable winners in the past (Stanwick in 2011, Laveille in 2008) and the game survived.

The Ivy League is a top 3 lacrosse conference, whether you ACC fan boys want to accept that or not. And it does it with some headwinds - academic requirements, no scholarships, no grad student players, late start to practice, facilities. And yet, with these headwinds, the Ivies compete every year with the ACC and B10 - and Big East quite successfully. These insults from the ACC fans and players (see Kavanaugh's cringe worthy interview on the McAfee show after last year's title win as an example of how not to win gracefully) get old and tired.

You should be able to argue that you think Shelly deserves the award without deprecating a great player like Brandau, a top flight program like Yale, and a top conference like the Ivy League. I have tremendous respect for UVA as a university and its lax program. And I think the world of Tiffany (based on personal experience). He is a class act. I hope some of that class rubs off on you.