a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:58 amSo you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
Settlements.
Look, i am BY NO MEANS attempting to absolve the Palestinians of responsibility for the depths to which this relationship has sunk...
To further the analogy someone else started up-thread...Israel is "big" because of the US. Palestine is "little" because of the US, and because of other Arab nation's bad...or lack of...sensible judgement on the issue.
Given the status of current relations between Israel and the United Nations...what are the chances, with Yahoo at the helm in particular...that the UN Peacekeepers avenue to a solution has any chance of success?
..
Zero. Its why he has to go. We agree on this. We agree on most of this, as far as I can tell.
And Correct me if I'm wrong....the UN has NEVER hit Palestine with an adverse judgement. Yet there are DOZENS for Israel. Do I have this right?
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:38 am
"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...
Yeah, I wasn't very clear there, was I? I understand all of the above....total mess, and the WORST thing Netanyahu could do, imho.
My point was that BEFORE they "handed over Gaza" and made living in Gaza horrible.....the Palestinians hit Israel with terrorism. Cafe bombings, etc.
So you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. That happened for DECADES before Gaza was handed over and turned it into what some are calling "an open air prison". In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
... this is totally a one sided narrative. Haganah and Stern Gang in that same period were terrorizing Palestinians. There were peaceful Palestinians and Jews coexisting, good neighbors, and there were terrorist gangs (for lack of a better word) existing on both sides at the same time. Cafe bombings weren't the actions solely of Palestinians. You are correct that the terrorist acts, both sides, predate modern Gaza, predate 1948. Mostly post Balfour - WW1 which started the land rush / competition.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:38 am
"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...
Yeah, I wasn't very clear there, was I? I understand all of the above....total mess, and the WORST thing Netanyahu could do, imho.
My point was that BEFORE they "handed over Gaza" and made living in Gaza horrible.....the Palestinians hit Israel with terrorism. Cafe bombings, etc.
So you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. That happened for DECADES before Gaza was handed over and turned it into what some are calling "an open air prison". In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
... this is totally a one sided narrative. Haganah and Stern Gang in that same period were terrorizing Palestinians. There were peaceful Palestinians and Jews coexisting, good neighbors, and there were terrorist gangs (for lack of a better word) existing on both sides at the same time. Cafe bombings weren't the actions solely of Palestinians. You are correct that the terrorist acts, both sides, predate modern Gaza, predate 1948. Mostly post Balfour - WW1 which started the land rush / competition.
Stand corrected. Thank you for reminding me of info I'd totally forgotten about....
Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:39 am
No, that wasn't what "the Marshall Plan was all about."
.... thank you! The Marshall Plan said nothing about "blowing the hell" out of anything. It was a simple plan, rebuild Europe so as to rebuild the economy and break the cycle of poverty always brought about by war and imposed on the losers. Don't continue the war's destruction by imposing economic retribution on the losers. Don't continue the mistake of WW1. The "blowing the hell" out of everything was a pre - existing condition.
Right; it was an effort to show that we had learned from the lessons of Weimar, and the catastrophic consequences of Versailles. And it was a huge boon to the American economy.
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:58 amSo you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
Settlements.
Look, i am BY NO MEANS attempting to absolve the Palestinians of responsibility for the depths to which this relationship has sunk...
To further the analogy someone else started up-thread...Israel is "big" because of the US. Palestine is "little" because of the US, and because of other Arab nation's bad...or lack of...sensible judgement on the issue.
Given the status of current relations between Israel and the United Nations...what are the chances, with Yahoo at the helm in particular...that the UN Peacekeepers avenue to a solution has any chance of success?
..
Zero. Its why he has to go. We agree on this. We agree on most of this, as far as I can tell.
And Correct me if I'm wrong....the UN has NEVER hit Palestine with an adverse judgement. Yet there are DOZENS for Israel. Do I have this right?
... only one in 1952 which hits Palestinians via the Arab League, for cease fire violations.
It should be noted UN resolutions/sanctions can only be directed at member states I believe. Palestine itself is not a member state. Number of UN sanctions is not a good metric. Of course the biggest sanction was not UN, it was the Balfor "Agreement" which gave away land the Palestinians though was theirs, followed up by UN181.
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:58 amSo you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
Settlements.
Look, i am BY NO MEANS attempting to absolve the Palestinians of responsibility for the depths to which this relationship has sunk...
To further the analogy someone else started up-thread...Israel is "big" because of the US. Palestine is "little" because of the US, and because of other Arab nation's bad...or lack of...sensible judgement on the issue.
Given the status of current relations between Israel and the United Nations...what are the chances, with Yahoo at the helm in particular...that the UN Peacekeepers avenue to a solution has any chance of success?
..
Zero. Its why he has to go. We agree on this. We agree on most of this, as far as I can tell.
And Correct me if I'm wrong....the UN has NEVER hit Palestine with an adverse judgement. Yet there are DOZENS for Israel. Do I have this right?
... only one in 1952 which hits Palestinians via the Arab League, for cease fire violations.
It should be noted UN resolutions/sanctions can only be directed at member states I believe. Palestine itself is not a member state. Number of UN sanctions is not a good metric. Of course the biggest sanction was not UN, it was the Balfor "Agreement" which gave away land the Palestinians though was theirs, followed up by UN181.
Well, my point here is: the UN isn't calling balls and strikes here. If the Palestinians can do no wrong, and the Israelis can do nothing BUT wrong.....it makes Israel appear to the world as the bad guy, and Palestinians awesome and flawless.
Would YOU listen to the UN in this arrangement if you were Israel? I wouldn't. Although, I wouldn't do 99% of what Netanyahu has done, so....
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:58 am
Your so consistently inconsistent Dis. I thought putting Iran in charge of security in Gaza might give you...
As the season rapidly approaches, let's try to tone down our more crass posts.
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:58 amSo you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
Settlements.
Look, i am BY NO MEANS attempting to absolve the Palestinians of responsibility for the depths to which this relationship has sunk...
To further the analogy someone else started up-thread...Israel is "big" because of the US. Palestine is "little" because of the US, and because of other Arab nation's bad...or lack of...sensible judgement on the issue.
Given the status of current relations between Israel and the United Nations...what are the chances, with Yahoo at the helm in particular...that the UN Peacekeepers avenue to a solution has any chance of success?
..
Zero. Its why he has to go. We agree on this. We agree on most of this, as far as I can tell.
And Correct me if I'm wrong....the UN has NEVER hit Palestine with an adverse judgement. Yet there are DOZENS for Israel. Do I have this right?
... only one in 1952 which hits Palestinians via the Arab League, for cease fire violations.
It should be noted UN resolutions/sanctions can only be directed at member states I believe. Palestine itself is not a member state. Number of UN sanctions is not a good metric. Of course the biggest sanction was not UN, it was the Balfor "Agreement" which gave away land the Palestinians though was theirs, followed up by UN181.
Well, my point here is: the UN isn't calling balls and strikes here. If the Palestinians can do no wrong, and the Israelis can do nothing BUT wrong.....it makes Israel appear to the world as the bad guy, and Palestinians awesome and flawless.
Would YOU listen to the UN in this arrangement if you were Israel? I wouldn't. Although, I wouldn't do 99% of what Netanyahu has done, so....
... probably not. The Israel's notified the UN a long time ago they were not going to pay attention to any resolution / sanction directed at Israel unless it was also directed at the Palestinians.
It is being reported that the Israeli's have agreed to a plan to release all hostages, mediated by Egypt and Qatar (and US). We'll see, the region experts are being very skeptical.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:38 am
"Turned GAZA over" is a not really what happened. Yes, they turned internal administration over, but absolutely clamped down on the "open air prison" status of The Strip. Control of entrance/exit, control of external economic status, control of the costline, etc...does not exactly translate into "turned over"...
Yeah, I wasn't very clear there, was I? I understand all of the above....total mess, and the WORST thing Netanyahu could do, imho.
My point was that BEFORE they "handed over Gaza" and made living in Gaza horrible.....the Palestinians hit Israel with terrorism. Cafe bombings, etc.
So you can't say that poor treatment in Gaza is what led to terrorist acts from Palestine. That happened for DECADES before Gaza was handed over and turned it into what some are calling "an open air prison". In other words: that excuse doesn't hold water.
... this is totally a one sided narrative. Irgun** and Stern Gang in that same period were terrorizing Palestinians. There were peaceful Palestinians and Jews coexisting, good neighbors, and there were terrorist gangs (for lack of a better word) existing on both sides at the same time. Cafe bombings weren't the actions solely of Palestinians. You are correct that the terrorist acts, both sides, predate modern Gaza, predate 1948. Mostly post Balfour - WW1 which started the land rush / competition.
.... fixed to credit Irgun, not Hagenah for the terrorism directed against Palestinians. Hagenah prior to 1948 had pretty good relations with the Palestinians. Hagenah was not early on a terrorist organization, its mission was directed at driving the British out.
The document said intelligence gathered showed that at least 190 UNRWA workers were Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives, without providing evidence.
It said of the 12 workers, nine were teachers and one a social worker. Seven of the employees were accused of crossing into Israel on Oct. 7. Of those, one was accused of taking part in a kidnapping, another of helping to take away a dead soldier and three others of participating in the attacks.
Ten were listed as having ties to Hamas and one to the Islamic Jihad militant group. Two of the 12 have been killed, according to the document. The U.N. previously said one was still being identified.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
youthathletics wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:19 pm
This is helpful, if true Document spells out allegations against 12 UN employees Israel says participated in Hamas attack
The document said intelligence gathered showed that at least 190 UNRWA workers were Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives, without providing evidence.
It said of the 12 workers, nine were teachers and one a social worker. Seven of the employees were accused of crossing into Israel on Oct. 7. Of those, one was accused of taking part in a kidnapping, another of helping to take away a dead soldier and three others of participating in the attacks.
Ten were listed as having ties to Hamas and one to the Islamic Jihad militant group. Two of the 12 have been killed, according to the document. The U.N. previously said one was still being identified.
A very good friend of mine works with Save The Children. I am going to ask him how bad it is in Gaza.
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... I'm going to be cremated some day. The thought of being buried in the ground ain't my cup of tea.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... I'm going to be cremated some day. The thought of being buried in the ground ain't my cup of tea.
If it hadn't become so trendy (read expensive), I was thinking of feeding a tree.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... I'm going to be cremated some day. The thought of being buried in the ground ain't my cup of tea.
If it hadn't become so trendy (read expensive), I was thinking of feeding a tree.
Both of my parents were cremated. My father had always told me not to waste any money whatsoever on a funeral and a casket. He said it for years. He went in in a cardboard's box with that hard plastic strip that is around your lawn bags. I actually pressed the button before he went up in smoke. I am going that way.
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... I'm going to be cremated some day. The thought of being buried in the ground ain't my cup of tea.
If it hadn't become so trendy (read expensive), I was thinking of feeding a tree.
Both of my parents were cremated. My father had always told me not to waste any money whatsoever on a funeral and a casket. He said it for years. He went in in a cardboard's box with that hard plastic strip that is around your lawn bags. I actually pressed the button before he went up in smoke. I am going that way.
That is my plan as well. I don't want my love ones mourning me when I'm gone. When you have someone in your heart they are never really gone from your life.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... I'm going to be cremated some day. The thought of being buried in the ground ain't my cup of tea.
If it hadn't become so trendy (read expensive), I was thinking of feeding a tree.
Both of my parents were cremated. My father had always told me not to waste any money whatsoever on a funeral and a casket. He said it for years. He went in in a cardboard's box with that hard plastic strip that is around your lawn bags. I actually pressed the button before he went up in smoke. I am going that way.
That is my plan as well. I don't want my love ones mourning me when I'm gone. When you have someone in your heart they are never really gone from your life.
“Our dead are never dead to us, until we have forgotten them.”
George Eliot
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 11:02 am
The Israelis took out a tunnel system of high value. Those creative Hamas folks dug it underneath an old bone yard. Pretty sophisticated engineering on the part of Hamas. Blast doors, sophisticated booby traps and the like. The only repercussions from this demolition were the bones of the dearly departed scattered hither and yon. I suppose the Israelis will now be castigated for desecration of a cemetery.
On the positive side think of all of the phosphate freed to be incorporated back into the biome. Modern body disposal is a crime. Embalming and sealed coffins just delay the natural process of material re-use. Do we think we're all Pharaohs?
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust... I'm going to be cremated some day. The thought of being buried in the ground ain't my cup of tea.
If it hadn't become so trendy (read expensive), I was thinking of feeding a tree.
Both of my parents were cremated. My father had always told me not to waste any money whatsoever on a funeral and a casket. He said it for years. He went in in a cardboard's box with that hard plastic strip that is around your lawn bags. I actually pressed the button before he went up in smoke. I am going that way.
That is my plan as well. I don't want my love ones mourning me when I'm gone. When you have someone in your heart they are never really gone from your life.
“Our dead are never dead to us, until we have forgotten them.”
George Eliot
People “live” on in memories. The best thing you can leave behind are good memories is my motto.
It was a simple plan, rebuild Europe so as to rebuild the economy and break the cycle of poverty always brought about by war and imposed on the losers. Don't continue the war's destruction by imposing economic retribution on the losers. Don't continue the mistake of WW1. The "blowing the hell" out of everything was a pre - existing condition.
