Israel and Zionism

[MDlaxfan76]

You're quoting one Israeli, one out of a population of over 9 million. He's the counsel head of a town of 1,599 people. You truly are ridiculous.

That said, it's also an abhorrent statement by that individual. Easy to condemn.

[Gretchen]

You're quoting one Israeli, one out of a population of over 9 million. He's the counsel head of a town of 1,599 people. You truly are ridiculous.

That said, it's also an abhorrent statement by that individual. Easy to condemn.

Of course. Only a psychopath would say otherwise. And when a blatant antisemite cites a quote like this to justify, equivocate the actions of Hamas with the actions of Israel, this is also abhorrent. That was what I was reacting to.

[MDlaxfan76]

You're quoting one Israeli, one out of a population of over 9 million. He's the counsel head of a town of 1,599 people. You truly are ridiculous.

That said, it's also an abhorrent statement by that individual. Easy to condemn.

Of course. Only a psychopath would say otherwise. And when a blatant antisemite cites a quote like this to justify, equivocate the actions of Hamas with the actions of Israel, this is also abhorrent. That was what I was reacting to.

Understood.

[Brooklyn]

Unsportsmanlike Conduct
SECTION 4. No post-er shall:
a. Enter into a maligning argument with an official, Admin, as to any decision that has been made.
b. Use threatening, profane or obscene language, or gestures.
c. Bait, taunt, call undue attention to oneself, or commit any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials. Baiting and taunting is a one-to-three-day non-releasable foul in all cases.
d. Troll and/or commit other Russian 'bot and/or other Putinesque behaviors. A troll is someone who uses over-the-top opinions or unverified claims to incite others, stir up controversy, and change a civilized discussion into a battleground.
e. post posts that promote hatred toward groups of people based on their race, ethnic origin or nationality, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, or affiliation with any other protected group.

Posts supporting terrorist groups and/or condoning the acts of these terrorist groups is prohibited by the FanLax Forum. Hamas is a terrorist organization explicitly dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel. FanLax does not care if you agree or disagree with this statement. Posting links to websites that attempt to refute this fact does not change the terrorist status of these organizations any more than links to flat earth websites changes the roundness of the planet earth. Posts supporting terrorist groups including Hamas and/or condoning the acts of these terrorist groups is prohibited by the FanLax Forum and will not be tolerated.

A point of information, if you please: I have also linked to Likud party members who made blatantly racist calls for extermination. Do these also fall within this stricture?

[MDlaxfan76]

Unsportsmanlike Conduct
SECTION 4. No post-er shall:
a. Enter into a maligning argument with an official, Admin, as to any decision that has been made.
b. Use threatening, profane or obscene language, or gestures.
c. Bait, taunt, call undue attention to oneself, or commit any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials. Baiting and taunting is a one-to-three-day non-releasable foul in all cases.
d. Troll and/or commit other Russian 'bot and/or other Putinesque behaviors. A troll is someone who uses over-the-top opinions or unverified claims to incite others, stir up controversy, and change a civilized discussion into a battleground.
e. post posts that promote hatred toward groups of people based on their race, ethnic origin or nationality, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, or affiliation with any other protected group.

Posts supporting terrorist groups and/or condoning the acts of these terrorist groups is prohibited by the FanLax Forum. Hamas is a terrorist organization explicitly dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel. FanLax does not care if you agree or disagree with this statement. Posting links to websites that attempt to refute this fact does not change the terrorist status of these organizations any more than links to flat earth websites changes the roundness of the planet earth. Posts supporting terrorist groups including Hamas and/or condoning the acts of these terrorist groups is prohibited by the FanLax Forum and will not be tolerated.

A point of information, if you please: I have also linked to Likud party members who made blatantly racist calls for extermination. Do these also fall within this stricture?

sheesh, it's obvious that such statements are awful. If someone on here was pointing to such statements and saying they supported those statements, agreed with them, IMO it would be a violation of (d) and should be reported as such to Admin. However, no one has done so, best I can recall.

Statements in support of Hamas, definitely a terrorist organization, are clearly to be flagged.
That's what you've been doing. Incessantly.

Including this specious attempt to equivocate.

[admin]

A point of information, if you please: I have also linked to Likud party members who made blatantly racist calls for extermination. Do these also fall within this stricture?

Brooklyn, take a week off.

[a fan]

I have objected to the personal attack language just as I've objected to your absolutist labeling others.

Again, IMO, you're outside the bounds. Your absolutist, always anti-Israel, screeds are offensive...IMO intentionally so.

Hamas has made clear that they demand an entirely Islamic state, no Israel. They have supported that demand by killing indiscriminately as many Jews as possible, their leaders have numerous times committed them to killing all Jews in their way. And anyone else in their way.

The right wing Israeli government is committed to the preservation of Israel at all costs in the face of terror. Their policies, I believe, are not genocidal but they are abhorrent to me nevertheless as they are way too casual in their taking of innocent life in their effort to kill terrorists.

Your failure, no, your refusal, to condemn Hamas' actions are beyond the pale.

I agree with most of your post. However the balance is tipped heavily on the other side from what i have seen. Israel never wanted a two state solution and neither has Hamas. The Palestinians would accept one.

If this is true: why haven't Palestinians offered a two State solution?

Or more to the point, why didn't they accept the Two State solutions of the past?

This should have been in our rear view mirror DECADES ago.

[MDlaxfan76]

Bad leadership, decades of propagandist 'education', and actual, legit trauma fostering anger created majorities, or at least majorities of those in power, within the Palestinian community who believed they could achieve better/more.

Opportunities missed.

[Matnum PI]

Bit off topic but I don't plan to hijack this thread for long... What's strange about the politics threads (which I do not frequent so much) for me is that people arrive in the thread with a preset perspective, no matter how wrong that preset perspective is, and are not budging. Within the lacrosse threads, people have much more of a question than answer mindset, much more about growth and learning (though obviously not everyone) than an I'm-going-to-win-this-discussion mindset. This pretty accurate or am I missing something?

[MDlaxfan76]

Bit off topic but I don't plan to hijack this thread for long... What's strange about the politics threads (which I do not frequent so much) for me is that people arrive in the thread with a preset perspective, no matter how wrong that preset perspective is, and are not budging. Within the lacrosse threads, people have much more of a question than answer mindset, much more about growth and learning (though obviously not everyone) than an I'm-going-to-win-this-discussion mindset. This pretty accurate or am I missing something?

I dunno about how rigid everyone necessarily is, but I think the stakes of arguing one view versus another may regularly seem quite a bit higher on the politics threads versus most of the lax threads, though if you follow the Hopkins thread there's some pretty darn entrenched views and disagreements that can get heated. And when lax topics have veered into hotter potential topics they can get pretty intense...ala a critique of a longtime coach, particularly in areas of responsibility beyond the X's and O's, or perceptions of topics around gender, abuse, bigotry etc...

But talking about who is likely to get the starts and what schemes may work against an opponent, not as much heat...naturally.

I do think there are numerous posters and likely many more readers on the Politics thread who legitimately want to listen and learn, not just argue or spew...but then there are others who see the area as a battlefield. I think that comes with the perceived importance of the topics.

[a fan]

Bit off topic but I don't plan to hijack this thread for long... What's strange about the politics threads (which I do not frequent so much) for me is that people arrive in the thread with a preset perspective, no matter how wrong that preset perspective is, and are not budging. Within the lacrosse threads, people have much more of a question than answer mindset, much more about growth and learning (though obviously not everyone) than an I'm-going-to-win-this-discussion mindset. This pretty accurate or am I missing something?

You're missing many of us who do indeed change our minds....and are here to learn and exchange ideas.


What you are seeing are partisans....where no matter what, that magic R or D sets their "thinking" in stone, immutable.

It's why our nation is a sh(tshow.

Want a great example? You can offer a policy like "hey, let's stop starting wars where America wasn't attacked", which was offered by the far left since Vietnam...and you'll be called naive or a traitor for DECADES. Remember what the reaction to not going to war in Iraq for no freaking reason? "Freedom fries" should remind you how diehard R's were about these pointless wars.


Trump, and his magic letter R comes along a few years later? Suddenly Republican voters act like started unneeded wars is the most sensible thing they've ever heard.

This is how Americans "think". And this is why nothing gets done: Republicans, in particular, LOVE liberal policies.....but is MUST be delivered by someone with the magic letter R by their name.

If they were honest about how much they love Big Government? We'd be set.

And yes, the Dems do this, too, in 2023. Just at nowhere near as enormous of scale.

[Matnum PI]

I hear that. Makes sense. Big difference between who should be First Team AA and, statewide, how to handle abortion.

[Gretchen]

Matnum, I hear you. Hamas is seeking peace while Israel are the real terrorists. That Israel does not want and has never wanted a two-state solution. Both these statements are factually wrong. Clearly. But they are still repeated. And... I hear you. Some posters will be less growth and change minded while some will be more. Especially with topics that are, as y'all are saying, high stakes.

[a fan]

I hear that. Makes sense. Big difference between who should be First Team AA and, statewide, how to handle abortion.

That's part of it. The other part is: Americans tend to be VERY tribal....which makes the tribe membership of the messenger more important than the message for most. And most folks don't notice that these tribes frequently have nothing to do with gender or race or religion. Especially so in small towns.

Example of this? Vietnam war. Who was right about that war being a pointless mess? The left-wing hippies. Did Conservative and Moderate Americans listen to them on that count? Absolutely not.

But famously, someone in their tribe....Walter Cronkite, said the same thing the hippies did (in essence)....and was finally listened to.....

BLM is another one. They told Conservative Americans that some of their local governments-----run by Dems, no less-----was utterly failing them. How did American Conservatives react so this complaint that is SO clearly in their wheelhouse?

They didn't believe them, even though American Conservatives unanimously think that .gov sucks...and doubly so when Dems are in charge.

Crazy, right? That's the tribalism doing the thinking for them....BLM was in the "wrong tribe".

And again....all tribes do this, not just the examples I gave.

[jhu72]

I have objected to the personal attack language just as I've objected to your absolutist labeling others.

Again, IMO, you're outside the bounds. Your absolutist, always anti-Israel, screeds are offensive...IMO intentionally so.

Hamas has made clear that they demand an entirely Islamic state, no Israel. They have supported that demand by killing indiscriminately as many Jews as possible, their leaders have numerous times committed them to killing all Jews in their way. And anyone else in their way.

The right wing Israeli government is committed to the preservation of Israel at all costs in the face of terror. Their policies, I believe, are not genocidal but they are abhorrent to me nevertheless as they are way too casual in their taking of innocent life in their effort to kill terrorists.

Your failure, no, your refusal, to condemn Hamas' actions are beyond the pale.

I agree with most of your post. However the balance is tipped heavily on the other side from what i have seen. Israel never wanted a two state solution and neither has Hamas. The Palestinians would accept one. The ahistorical posts that ignore the reality of events since the late 1940s is amazing to me. Both sides have used terror. Both sides have killed a lot of innocent civilians to achieve their goal. History here is important to know

Yup. Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah seem to have been removed from history. They are now called IDF -- historical fact. The various paramilitary organizations, all of which, to varying degrees employed terror tactics, formed the first recognized Israeli military after statehood. Israel has elected leading members of these organizations as their Prime Ministers, well known with blood on their hands before being elected.

Personally I am tired of both sides crying how bad the other is and how clean "our" hands are.

[Gretchen]

Yup. Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah seem to have been removed from history... Personally I am tired of both sides crying how bad the other is and how clean "our" hands are.

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

[jhu72]

Israel never wanted a two state solution...

This is blatantly untrue...

... while not absolutely true, there have been periods where the majority of the nation seemed to be inclined toward peace. But if you take an average citizen opinion over time, the majority has been less inclined towards two state and peace! The right wing in Israel has owned the space since they assassinated Simon Perez. They have been absolutely opposed to two states or anything that would have them share space with Palestinians.

[MDlaxfan76]

Israel never wanted a two state solution...

This is blatantly untrue...

... while not absolutely true, there have been periods where the majority of the nation seemed to be inclined toward peace. But if you take an average citizen opinion over time, the majority has been less inclined towards two state and peace! The right wing in Israel has owned the space since they assassinated Simon Perez. They have been absolutely opposed to two states or anything that would have them share space with Palestinians.

The right wing, yes, but that's like saying that the US has always favored segregation...not everyone, not for a very long time.

My sense is that most Israelis want "peace" but they have differing views as to what is required to achieve and to maintain "peace" and what they are willing to accept short of perfect peace.

[jhu72]

Israel never wanted a two state solution...

This is blatantly untrue...

... while not absolutely true, there have been periods where the majority of the nation seemed to be inclined toward peace. But if you take an average citizen opinion over time, the majority has been less inclined towards two state and peace! The right wing in Israel has owned the space since they assassinated Simon Perez. They have been absolutely opposed to two states or anything that would have them share space with Palestinians.

The right wing, yes, but that's like saying that the US has always favored segregation...not everyone, not for a very long time.

My sense is that most Israelis want "peace" but they have differing views as to what is required to achieve and to maintain "peace" and what they are willing to accept short of perfect peace.

They want peace in the sense that they want to not be bombed. The majority gave up caring whether the Palestinians had peace. I equate a desire for real "peace" with a willingness to accept the "two state solution". It has been decades since a majority were willing to pursue the two state solution. Militant Muslims, Palestinians and others, wore the Israeli liberals (Palestinians' best hope) down to the point that the difference between left and right on this issue was nonexistent. I have said before, the left in Israel surrendered to the right on this issue.

That may change in the future as Bibi's fascist over playing of his hand the last few years I think has awoken the Israeli left. They realize the truth about having an authoritarian / fascist foreign policy also showing up as a fascist domestic policy.

Time will tell.

[a fan]

...... Palestinians and others, wore the Israeli liberals (Palestinians' best hope) down to the point that the difference between left and right on this issue was nonexistent. I have said before, the left in Israel surrendered to the right on this issue.

This. Agree completely. Obviously, this has NOT helped.

Where the F are the Palestinians with a Two State offer, is my question?

THAT is what needs to happen. Because the US, the UN, and the Israelis have tried that.

The one team that hasn't? The Palestinians. Step up, and end this craziness.