A suggestion about trolling...

[MDlaxfan76]

Or are we saying that "Jews" = Israeli government?

No, of course not. With this said, Israel is a Jewish state, is the homeland for the Jews. So when a post-er repeatedly says the Israelis, it sounds a lot like the Jews. I find the language to be very similar to when someone says, I'm not talking about blacks! I'm talking about blacks who live in black ghettos! It's true. The person isn't talking about all blacks. The person/post-er is talking about specific blacks but... Does it really make a difference? The person who says, I have a problem with *those* blacks, not all blacks. Does that really preclude the person from being a racist? I don't have an issue with gays. I have two friends at work that are gay and I have zero issue with them. The gays in the West Village of NYC, that's different! I definitely have a problem with *those* gays. For me, that's a homophobe. That's a racist. Admittedly, that means people need to tip-toe when they talk about Israelis. And there's a reason why. We tip-toe for the same reason we tip-toe when discussing the West Village, Harlem, Koreatown, etc. And some post-ers for sure are not tip-toe'ing. And, personally, I really don't like it. Not because of political views. But because of bigotry. For me, it smells a lot like straight-up bigotry.

It does to me as well.

I used to argue with the same poster and some others when they wrote in absolutist terms about Republicans as if monolithic. I don't call that "bigotry" per se, but it's sloppy rhetorical behavior as there's a world of difference between Cheney and Trump, Romney and Tuberville, Hogan and DeSantis...

In this instance, I just don't think it's hard to be specific about "the Netanyahu government" or "the current Israeli government" or "right wing Israelis" etc, rather than speaking generically of "Israel" or "Israelis" when accusing them of supporting apartheid policies, etc.

We all do some shorthand now and again, but IMO, when someone refuses to be specific and is in constant attack mode it sure smacks of bigotry.

[Matnum PI]

It does to me as well.

All true, agreed, and, just for clarity, there's a big difference between someone bad mouthing GOPers and someone bad mouthing blacks, gays, Jews, Asians, etc. One is much more personal. The person isn't just talking about you. They're talking about your mother, father, siblings, cousins, ancestors for generation after generation, friends, communities for generation after generation, and it is so tangibly who you are. For some, in a very deep way. To call someone an n'er can be excruciating for an individual. Bigotry can cut painfully deep. You can change your political party. You can't change from being black. Nor can your father, grandfather, great grandfather, etc. Just two very different things. I understand what you're saying about being more accurate with language. I'm just making the point that the language isn't what is bothering me. It's the animosity, the vitriol, the antisemitism.

From day one, I've said that this forum is our forum, not my forum. The party happens to be happening within my house. But I do not want that to make people feel like this isn't their party as much as mine. With this said, in the bluntest terms, I very much do not like the posts of this specific post-er. Not in an I-don't-agree-with-the-perspectives-of-Trumpers do not like. But in a why-in-G-d's-name-are-you-justifying-bordering-on-celebrating-what-happened-on-Oct-7 do not like. Referring to Gaza as a concentration camp, referring to the Israelis as Nazis, is it not obvious that the people using this language are purposely trying to hurt the Jews, not just the Israelis, in the deepest way. And this is happening within our forum. Again, this is our forum so I'm not doing anything without the explicit permission of the people of the forum but... I dunno. How can we allow this?!

[MDlaxfan76]

It does to me as well.

All true, agreed, and, just for clarity, there's a big difference between someone bad mouthing GOPers and someone bad mouthing blacks, gays, Jews, Asians, etc. One is much more personal. The person isn't just talking about you. They're talking about your mother, father, siblings, cousins, ancestors for generation after generation, friends, communities for generation after generation, and it is so tangibly who you are. For some, in a very deep way. To call someone an n'er can be excruciating for an individual. Bigotry can cut painfully deep. You can change your political party. You can't change from being black. Nor can your father, grandfather, great grandfather, etc. Just two very different things. I understand what you're saying about being more accurate with language. I'm just making the point that the language isn't what is bothering me. It's the animosity, the vitriol, the antisemitism.

From day one, I've said that this forum is our forum, not my forum. The party happens to be happening within my house. But I do not want that to make people feel like this isn't their party as much as mine. With this said, in the bluntest terms, I very much do not like the posts of this specific post-er. Not in an I-don't-agree-with-the-perspectives-of-Trumpers do not like. But in a why-in-G-d's-name-are-you-justifying-bordering-on-celebrating-what-happened-on-Oct-7 do not like. Referring to Gaza as a concentration camp, referring to the Israelis as Nazis, is it not obvious that the people using this language are purposely trying to hurt the Jews, not just the Israelis, in the deepest way. And this is happening within our forum. Again, this is our forum so I'm not doing anything without the explicit permission of the people of the forum but... I dunno. How can we allow this?!

I can't do it right this moment, but I'll take a look at the poster's last week or so of posts on the topic and see if I agree it's too far over the line...would a warning first be appropriate or just flat 'you're done'...

and yes, big difference. Very.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Do the Fanlax rules clearly address this issue? If not, perhaps an amendment is due.

If a rule does exist – why not quote the rule (which addresses and forbids racism) in the topic where this Jew-hater frequents and then enforce said rule if violated thereafter.

I'm half Jewish (my best half), by the way so – I know who you're referring to. I don't think a night in the hoosegow would do him any harm – or any of his wretched ilk for that matter - if said vein is continued in after the posting of the rule.

[Matnum PI]

I can't do it right this moment, but I'll take a look at the poster's last week or so of posts on the topic and see if I agree it's too far over the line...would a warning first be appropriate or just flat 'you're done'...

warning

[Matnum PI]

d. Troll and/or commit other Russian 'bot and/or other Putinesque behaviors. A troll is someone who uses over-the-top opinions or unverified claims to incite others, stir up controversy, and change a civilized discussion into a battleground.

Maybe we need an e. Something like "e. We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups of people based on their race, ethnic origin or nationality, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, or affiliation with any other protected group."

This might be enough. Though I do have a question. (I cannot believe I even have to write this. Never in my life did I think I would need to write this as an American.) Hate speech towards Israelis, towards Jews. This is clear. But can someone say that they feel discriminated against because people are posting hate speech towards Hamas?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Maybe we need an e. Something like "e. We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups of people based on their race, ethnic origin or nationality, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, or affiliation with any other protected group."

Perfect.

can someone say that they feel discriminated against because people are posting hate speech towards Hamas?

Not reasonably.

[MDlaxfan76]

d. Troll and/or commit other Russian 'bot and/or other Putinesque behaviors. A troll is someone who uses over-the-top opinions or unverified claims to incite others, stir up controversy, and change a civilized discussion into a battleground.

Maybe we need an e. Something like "e. We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups of people based on their race, ethnic origin or nationality, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, or affiliation with any other protected group."

This might be enough. Though I do have a question. (I cannot believe I even have to write this. Never in my life did I think I would need to write this as an American.) Hate speech towards Israelis, towards Jews. This is clear. But can someone say that they feel discriminated against because people are posting hate speech towards Hamas?

I just took a look at the last couple of weeks of posts by the poster in question and while I see a bit of rhetorical excess, I don't see broad brush hate speech towards Jews, nor disguised as "Israelis". Closest is "propaganda" by "IDF" and specific to the pictures of naked men, etc...that's been roundly critiqued as beyond the pale by IDF forces involved, but the IDF swiftly and formally said it was inappropriate as well.

Gotta go back earlier (unless I missed something) to find discussions about how Israel should not exist, should not be supported, as a Jewish state.

So, IF happens again and is evident, a warning.

Key word in your phrasing is "hatred".

[Matnum PI]

Outta, sent "e. We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups" etc. to Admin and, MD, I hear you. Let's see what happens going forward.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Outta, sent "e. We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups" etc. to Admin and, MD, I hear you. Let's see what happens going forward.

[Matnum PI]

Pro-Hamas posts? I dunno. Baducchi isn't wrong...

MD, you don't find this sentiment a little anti-Semitic? Praising a group explicitly dedicated to the destruction of Israel. I dunno...

[MDlaxfan76]

Pro-Hamas posts? I dunno. Baducchi isn't wrong...

MD, you don't find this sentiment a little anti-Semitic? Praising a group explicitly dedicated to the destruction of Israel. I dunno...

Yes, I think he's out of bounds. Way out right now.

So are some of the responses, but I think that's what he's trying to incite by being deeply offensive.
Brooklyn is a rhetorical absolutist who refuses to take into account, at all, the deeply felt emotions of those who also occupy these spaces.
Instead he makes absolutist claims that fail on their face.

That said, there's been real Islamaphobia in the past on these threads that only a few of us have challenged. There really are more than a single perspective that should be discussable on these pages...it's how it is done that matters, though.