All Things Russia & Ukraine

[DocBarrister]

Lavrov is signalling to the EUroburghers that Russia will settle for the DPR, LPR, & the southern bridge to Crimea territory they now hold.

The more long range weapons the west provides, the more missiles Russia will lob into the rest of Ukraine.

WRM is using my lingo :
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wokeness-i ... 1657569787

Wokeness Is Putin’s Weapon
Russia and China capitalize on the West’s moral and political confusion.
by Walter Russell Mead, July 11, 2022

Five months into the war in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin’s army continues to flounder. Kyiv’s defenders are making up for their smaller numbers and artillery shortages with better commanders, smarter tactics, higher morale and, increasingly, better weapons as Western high-tech arms reach the battlefield.

Mr. Putin has had the most success, paradoxically, in the domains of economics and politics, where the West thought its power was strongest. Fears that a Russian gas embargo could cripple European economies and leave comfortable German burghers freezing in the dark next winter have replaced hopes that Western sanctions would bring Moscow to its knees. Thoroughly intimidated by the consequences of an economic war with Russia, Germany is beginning to weasel out of its pledges to increase defense spending.

Similarly, the early Western optimism that values would unite the world against Russian aggression has fizzled. Led by China and joined by India and Brazil, countries around the world are choosing trade with Russia over solidarity with the Group of Seven.

Unfortunately, the West’s increasingly “woke” values agenda is not as credible or as popular as liberals hope. President Biden’s visit to Saudi Arabia this week reminds the world of the limits on Western commitments to human rights. Many values dear to the hearts of Western cultural leaders (LGBTQ rights, abortion on demand, freedom of speech understood as allowing unchecked Internet pornography) puzzle and offend billions of people around the world who haven’t kept up with the latest hot trends on American campuses. Attempts by Western financial institutions and regulators to block financing for fossil-fuel extraction and refining in developing countries enrage both elites there and the public at large.

Moreover, the liberal West’s new, post-Judeo-Christian values agenda divides the West. Culture wars at home don’t promote unity overseas. If Mr. Biden, with the support of the European Parliament, makes abortion on demand a key element of the values agenda of the world order, he is more likely to weaken American support for Ukraine than to unite the world against Mr. Putin.

The moral and political confusion of the contemporary West is the secret weapon that the leaders of Russia and China believe will bring the American world order to its knees. Messrs. Putin and Xi might be wrong; one certainly hopes that they are. But their bet on Western decadence has been paying off handsomely for more than a decade. Western survival and global flourishing require more thought and deeper change than the Biden administration and its European allies can currently imagine.

Your use of the terms “DPR” and “LPR” is repugnant. Those are the illegal terms of the Russian invaders.

I cannot believe you are still siding with Putin and Russia after witnessing their war crimes and atrocities.

As for the article … why would the authors introduce anti-abortion rights far-right garbage into a discussion on Ukraine.

DocBarrister

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

You have been posting for less than a month, so …

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?

Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?

If not, that is understandable.

Now, you have the choice of continuing to sound like an imbecile or choose to make more informed posts on this forum.

What will it be?

DocBarrister

[kramerica.inc]

Lavrov is signalling to the EUroburghers that Russia will settle for the DPR, LPR, & the southern bridge to Crimea territory they now hold.

The more long range weapons the west provides, the more missiles Russia will lob into the rest of Ukraine.

WRM is using my lingo :
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wokeness-i ... 1657569787

Wokeness Is Putin’s Weapon
Russia and China capitalize on the West’s moral and political confusion.
by Walter Russell Mead, July 11, 2022

Five months into the war in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin’s army continues to flounder. Kyiv’s defenders are making up for their smaller numbers and artillery shortages with better commanders, smarter tactics, higher morale and, increasingly, better weapons as Western high-tech arms reach the battlefield.

Mr. Putin has had the most success, paradoxically, in the domains of economics and politics, where the West thought its power was strongest. Fears that a Russian gas embargo could cripple European economies and leave comfortable German burghers freezing in the dark next winter have replaced hopes that Western sanctions would bring Moscow to its knees. Thoroughly intimidated by the consequences of an economic war with Russia, Germany is beginning to weasel out of its pledges to increase defense spending.

Similarly, the early Western optimism that values would unite the world against Russian aggression has fizzled. Led by China and joined by India and Brazil, countries around the world are choosing trade with Russia over solidarity with the Group of Seven.

Unfortunately, the West’s increasingly “woke” values agenda is not as credible or as popular as liberals hope. President Biden’s visit to Saudi Arabia this week reminds the world of the limits on Western commitments to human rights. Many values dear to the hearts of Western cultural leaders (LGBTQ rights, abortion on demand, freedom of speech understood as allowing unchecked Internet pornography) puzzle and offend billions of people around the world who haven’t kept up with the latest hot trends on American campuses. Attempts by Western financial institutions and regulators to block financing for fossil-fuel extraction and refining in developing countries enrage both elites there and the public at large.

Moreover, the liberal West’s new, post-Judeo-Christian values agenda divides the West. Culture wars at home don’t promote unity overseas. If Mr. Biden, with the support of the European Parliament, makes abortion on demand a key element of the values agenda of the world order, he is more likely to weaken American support for Ukraine than to unite the world against Mr. Putin.

The moral and political confusion of the contemporary West is the secret weapon that the leaders of Russia and China believe will bring the American world order to its knees. Messrs. Putin and Xi might be wrong; one certainly hopes that they are. But their bet on Western decadence has been paying off handsomely for more than a decade. Western survival and global flourishing require more thought and deeper change than the Biden administration and its European allies can currently imagine.

Your use of the terms “DPR” and “LPR” is repugnant. Those are the illegal terms of the Russian invaders.

I cannot believe you are still siding with Putin and Russia after witnessing their war crimes and atrocities.

As for the article … why would the authors introduce anti-abortion rights far-right garbage into a discussion on Ukraine.

DocBarrister

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

You have been posting for less than a month, so …

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?

Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?

If not, that is understandable.

Now, you have the choice of continuing to sound like an imbecile or choose to make more informed posts on this forum.

What will it be?

DocBarrister

Reported for Trolling. Name calling.
And just plain, no substantive value.

[DocBarrister]

Question: what do you think will happen to Putin if he Ukrainian forces push him out of Russia, Doc? What do you think will happen to Putin if he "loses"?

...& what will that prompt Putin to do ?

Old Salt gets why I'm asking the question....

So, tell us what you think he will do...given that you don't think we can know what Putin thinks...

I do think my question set at the end, above, is big and hairy...

EDIT...looks like you just answered...

I. don't. know. No clue.

The ONLY thing I said is: I wouldn't bet against Putin using nukes if Ukraine manages to fulfill Doc's wishes and "win", and starts lobbing missiles into Russia. That's not even close to the same thing as "he'll use nukes for sure". I don't know what he'll do. And I don't know what he'll settle for in Ukraine.

Yeah, anything that is "settled for" with Putin is only temporary...that's the problem. He's never going to be permanently satisfied with only a partial 'win' toward his rather delusional aspirations. and any show of Western weakness, fecklessness only strengthens his propaganda hand, both internally and around the world.

And yeah, gotta be careful about the "lobbing"...I understand the Biden administration being careful...

I don’t think anyone is certain how this will all end.

I suspect Putin would level Kyiv and every other major city in Ukraine before he concedes defeat. That doesn’t mean he will use nukes, but that cannot be ruled out either.

Putin will not accept any “off-ramp” from Ukraine or the allies.

But he is already expressing fear that Ukraine will begin attacking Crimea.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-threate ... 5383?amp=1

Putin will not accept anything less than territorial control over most of Ukraine and de facto control over the government in Kyiv. That much is clear.

It’s also clear that Ukraine will never accept that outcome, and neither will the United States, NATO, and the EU.

If I had to guess, and it is an informed but still speculative guess, I would surmise the end of the war looking like this ugly, tragic mess:

(1) Most major Ukrainian cities are leveled, including Kyiv;

(2) both the Russian and Ukrainian militaries are exhausted with little functional capability remaining;

(3) over 100,000 Russian troops are dead;

(4) over 100,000 Ukrainians are dead;

(5) President Zelensky may be dead after being killed in a Russian bombardment of Kyiv;

(6) Putin lives, but his power is markedly diminished as Russian military and security forces belatedly restrict his control over Russia; Putin is indicted at The Hague as a war criminal;

(7) the United States and its allies have spent over $100 billion supporting Ukraine; and

(8) Putin’s war concludes with a messy stalemate where both sides have essentially lost.

I hope Putin’s demise comes long before that, but I don’t think this speculative ending is completely unrealistic.

DocBarrister

well, that's the scenario of a Putin "win" in Ukraine. Decimation of the vassal state.

I give that a 25% likelihood at this point, albeit that low estimate is based on whether the US and NATO countries stay the course with more advanced weaponry and support, both with sanctions vs Russians and financial support for Ukraine.

The total amount of that support, I believe, is actually less if done sooner rather than later.

Well, I would describe that as more of a lose-lose scenario, which a geopolitical cynic might consider a U.S. “win” (I certainly would not).

I don’t think U.S. support will wane.

In fact, the big recent news (which hasn’t received much fanfare) is that the United States is contemplating sending Ukraine “new fighter jets.”

As Russia laid bare its more ambitious military goals, the Pentagon said on Wednesday that it would send Ukraine four more advanced multiple-rocket launch vehicles, known as HIMARS. A senior defense official acknowledged that they were also considering sending Ukraine new fighter jets.

Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr., the chief of staff of the United States Air Force, declined to say what type of aircraft might be transferred, but he said that discussions were being held about how to reinforce Ukraine’s air force.

“It’ll be something non-Russian, I can probably tell you that,” General Brown said at the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado. “But I can’t tell you exactly what it’s going to be.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/07/21 ... -the-south

I can’t even begin to state how startling that is.

The term “non-Russian” is shorthand for “modern”, and fighter jets are clearly offensive weapons that could potentially be used to strike within Russia itself.

The NY Times article also describes recent Ukrainian air strikes which have had devastating effect on Russian forces.

It is absolutely remarkable that after five months of war, Russia has failed to establish control over Ukrainian airspace. No U.S. president or military commander would ever launch a major ground invasion without establishing air control.

DocBarrister

[admin]

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?
Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?
If not, that is understandable.
Now, you have the choice of continuing to sound like an imbecile or choose to make more informed posts on this forum.
What will it be?
DocBarrister

no personal attacks...

[DocBarrister]

Lavrov is signalling to the EUroburghers that Russia will settle for the DPR, LPR, & the southern bridge to Crimea territory they now hold.

The more long range weapons the west provides, the more missiles Russia will lob into the rest of Ukraine.

WRM is using my lingo :
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wokeness-i ... 1657569787

Wokeness Is Putin’s Weapon
Russia and China capitalize on the West’s moral and political confusion.
by Walter Russell Mead, July 11, 2022

Five months into the war in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin’s army continues to flounder. Kyiv’s defenders are making up for their smaller numbers and artillery shortages with better commanders, smarter tactics, higher morale and, increasingly, better weapons as Western high-tech arms reach the battlefield.

Mr. Putin has had the most success, paradoxically, in the domains of economics and politics, where the West thought its power was strongest. Fears that a Russian gas embargo could cripple European economies and leave comfortable German burghers freezing in the dark next winter have replaced hopes that Western sanctions would bring Moscow to its knees. Thoroughly intimidated by the consequences of an economic war with Russia, Germany is beginning to weasel out of its pledges to increase defense spending.

Similarly, the early Western optimism that values would unite the world against Russian aggression has fizzled. Led by China and joined by India and Brazil, countries around the world are choosing trade with Russia over solidarity with the Group of Seven.

Unfortunately, the West’s increasingly “woke” values agenda is not as credible or as popular as liberals hope. President Biden’s visit to Saudi Arabia this week reminds the world of the limits on Western commitments to human rights. Many values dear to the hearts of Western cultural leaders (LGBTQ rights, abortion on demand, freedom of speech understood as allowing unchecked Internet pornography) puzzle and offend billions of people around the world who haven’t kept up with the latest hot trends on American campuses. Attempts by Western financial institutions and regulators to block financing for fossil-fuel extraction and refining in developing countries enrage both elites there and the public at large.

Moreover, the liberal West’s new, post-Judeo-Christian values agenda divides the West. Culture wars at home don’t promote unity overseas. If Mr. Biden, with the support of the European Parliament, makes abortion on demand a key element of the values agenda of the world order, he is more likely to weaken American support for Ukraine than to unite the world against Mr. Putin.

The moral and political confusion of the contemporary West is the secret weapon that the leaders of Russia and China believe will bring the American world order to its knees. Messrs. Putin and Xi might be wrong; one certainly hopes that they are. But their bet on Western decadence has been paying off handsomely for more than a decade. Western survival and global flourishing require more thought and deeper change than the Biden administration and its European allies can currently imagine.

Your use of the terms “DPR” and “LPR” is repugnant. Those are the illegal terms of the Russian invaders.

I cannot believe you are still siding with Putin and Russia after witnessing their war crimes and atrocities.

As for the article … why would the authors introduce anti-abortion rights far-right garbage into a discussion on Ukraine.

DocBarrister

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

You have been posting for less than a month, so …

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?

Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?

If not, that is understandable.

Now, you have the choice of continuing to sound like an imbecile or choose to make more informed posts on this forum.

What will it be?

DocBarrister

Reported for Trolling. Name calling.
And just plain, no substantive value.

So, you reported yourself?

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?
Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?
If not, that is understandable.
Now, you have the choice of continuing to sound like an imbecile or choose to make more informed posts on this forum.
What will it be?
DocBarrister

no personal attacks...

Did you also warn laxfan2000 for constantly trolling me?

DocBarrister

[kramerica.inc]

Admin can only address issues he sees and are reported.
Did you report the issue?

[DocBarrister]

Admin can only address issues he sees and are reported.
Did you report the issue?

If I had to report every piece of BS trolling directed to me, that’s all Admin would have to read.

How many times did I have to report the anti-Asian headers on your threads?

But … if that’s what Admin wants, I will be happy to report every instance of trolling moving forward.

I doubt that’s the preference.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

Talk about a one trick pony.

Are you ever gonna discuss any actual topics, or just your opinion of posters?

Want my opinion?? DocBarrister's post that I replied back to is more Anti-American than any post that OS has ever made. How's that?

I have reported this post to Admin as an exemplar of constant trolling and anti-Asian bias (“Anti-American”). I have also requested an inquiry about whether this username is being employed by a long-standing forum member for the specific purpose of trolling me.

DocBarrister

[LaxFan2000]

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

Talk about a one trick pony.

Are you ever gonna discuss any actual topics, or just your opinion of posters?

Want my opinion?? DocBarrister's post that I replied back to is more Anti-American than any post that OS has ever made. How's that?

No. What Doc wrote was boilerplate post WWII Conservative American, and that's why you're confused, because he's a Hillary-latte-liberal.

If you were against ANY war (or proxy war) that we fought since the 40's? You were labelled a hippy, called unpatriotic, and lectured to that "you just don't understand that the world is dangerous, and this is what we HAVE to do". Oh, and you didn't support our troops. Questioning war is bad.

And for all this time, it was conservative America lecturing to the hippies as to why (insert military intervention) was necessary to American security, and that if they didn't get it and didn't support it? They were stupid. And didn't support our troops.

Enter Trump, and "America first". Suddenly NATO is stupid, and giving weapons to Ukraine was stupid. And playing cop to the world is stupid. 60 years of foreign policy burnt to the ground.

So now it's (some) 2022 Republicans who are questioning why we're fighting a proxy war in Ukraine...after supporting every. single. proxy. war for 60 years without hesitation or any thought whatsoever.

So libs are confused, and don't get where the support for war went.

It would take you thousands of years to explain this to an alien from Mars.

Thanks for the insight. I more find it outrageous that someone on this site could possibly think an American (From the little I know about OS, he is the furthest thing from Anti-American!) is "actively rooting" for a foreign adversary in a war that in no single possible way benefits the United States (Beyond the removal of Putin from Power, This is implied!). You have to be either really dumb or have some major cajones to flat out come out and say that. That is a serious accusation. DocB is nowhere even close to being right with this assertation and everybody on this forum knows it. I call him out and I am the one getting attacked? People are missing the point here. We can't have people on this thread accusing others of "actively rooting" for foreign adversaries during times of war. It's never ok. Not now, not ever. That's my point.

[MDlaxfan76]

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

Talk about a one trick pony.

Are you ever gonna discuss any actual topics, or just your opinion of posters?

Want my opinion?? DocBarrister's post that I replied back to is more Anti-American than any post that OS has ever made. How's that?

No. What Doc wrote was boilerplate post WWII Conservative American, and that's why you're confused, because he's a Hillary-latte-liberal.

If you were against ANY war (or proxy war) that we fought since the 40's? You were labelled a hippy, called unpatriotic, and lectured to that "you just don't understand that the world is dangerous, and this is what we HAVE to do". Oh, and you didn't support our troops. Questioning war is bad.

And for all this time, it was conservative America lecturing to the hippies as to why (insert military intervention) was necessary to American security, and that if they didn't get it and didn't support it? They were stupid. And didn't support our troops.

Enter Trump, and "America first". Suddenly NATO is stupid, and giving weapons to Ukraine was stupid. And playing cop to the world is stupid. 60 years of foreign policy burnt to the ground.

So now it's (some) 2022 Republicans who are questioning why we're fighting a proxy war in Ukraine...after supporting every. single. proxy. war for 60 years without hesitation or any thought whatsoever.

So libs are confused, and don't get where the support for war went.

It would take you thousands of years to explain this to an alien from Mars.

Thanks for the insight. I more find it outrageous that someone on this site could possibly think an American (From the little I know about OS, he is the furthest thing from Anti-American!) is "actively rooting" for a foreign adversary in a war that in no single possible way benefits the United States (Beyond the removal of Putin from Power, This is implied!). You have to be either really dumb or have some major cajones to flat out come out and say that. That is a serious accusation. DocB is nowhere even close to being right with this assertation and everybody on this forum knows it. I call him out and I am the one getting attacked? People are missing the point here. We can't have people on this thread accusing others of "actively rooting" for foreign adversaries during times of war. It's never ok. Not now, not ever. That's my point.

Again, there's a very long history here 2000.
Let's assume for a heartbeat that you really don't understand that history and take your word for it that you are simply asking for things to be civil..ok.
But you seem to actually know more than you admit...it feels very much like this 2000 name is not your first alias...but if you really are a brand new participant, without the benefit of that history, perhaps a bit of humility would be in order.

While most of us have long considered Russia an "adversary", and certainly OS considered the Soviet Union to be such, there are indeed an awful lot of Americans who truly do consider Putin the relative "good guy" in this conflict, that America and the West have actually instigated this conflict through a series of actions over time, and have repeatedly pooh poohed the actual evil that Putin represents...they actually prefer right wing autocracy, especially white nationalist autocracy, and support that movement worldwide.

[MDlaxfan76]

Lavrov is signalling to the EUroburghers that Russia will settle for the DPR, LPR, & the southern bridge to Crimea territory they now hold.

The more long range weapons the west provides, the more missiles Russia will lob into the rest of Ukraine.

WRM is using my lingo :
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wokeness-i ... 1657569787

Wokeness Is Putin’s Weapon
Russia and China capitalize on the West’s moral and political confusion.
by Walter Russell Mead, July 11, 2022

Five months into the war in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin’s army continues to flounder. Kyiv’s defenders are making up for their smaller numbers and artillery shortages with better commanders, smarter tactics, higher morale and, increasingly, better weapons as Western high-tech arms reach the battlefield.

Mr. Putin has had the most success, paradoxically, in the domains of economics and politics, where the West thought its power was strongest. Fears that a Russian gas embargo could cripple European economies and leave comfortable German burghers freezing in the dark next winter have replaced hopes that Western sanctions would bring Moscow to its knees. Thoroughly intimidated by the consequences of an economic war with Russia, Germany is beginning to weasel out of its pledges to increase defense spending.

Similarly, the early Western optimism that values would unite the world against Russian aggression has fizzled. Led by China and joined by India and Brazil, countries around the world are choosing trade with Russia over solidarity with the Group of Seven.

Unfortunately, the West’s increasingly “woke” values agenda is not as credible or as popular as liberals hope. President Biden’s visit to Saudi Arabia this week reminds the world of the limits on Western commitments to human rights. Many values dear to the hearts of Western cultural leaders (LGBTQ rights, abortion on demand, freedom of speech understood as allowing unchecked Internet pornography) puzzle and offend billions of people around the world who haven’t kept up with the latest hot trends on American campuses. Attempts by Western financial institutions and regulators to block financing for fossil-fuel extraction and refining in developing countries enrage both elites there and the public at large.

Moreover, the liberal West’s new, post-Judeo-Christian values agenda divides the West. Culture wars at home don’t promote unity overseas. If Mr. Biden, with the support of the European Parliament, makes abortion on demand a key element of the values agenda of the world order, he is more likely to weaken American support for Ukraine than to unite the world against Mr. Putin.

The moral and political confusion of the contemporary West is the secret weapon that the leaders of Russia and China believe will bring the American world order to its knees. Messrs. Putin and Xi might be wrong; one certainly hopes that they are. But their bet on Western decadence has been paying off handsomely for more than a decade. Western survival and global flourishing require more thought and deeper change than the Biden administration and its European allies can currently imagine.

Your use of the terms “DPR” and “LPR” is repugnant. Those are the illegal terms of the Russian invaders.

I cannot believe you are still siding with Putin and Russia after witnessing their war crimes and atrocities.

As for the article … why would the authors introduce anti-abortion rights far-right garbage into a discussion on Ukraine.

DocBarrister

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

You have been posting for less than a month, so …

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?

Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?

If not, that is understandable.

Now, you have the choice of continuing to sound like an imbecile or choose to make more informed posts on this forum.

What will it be?

DocBarrister

Reported for Trolling. Name calling.
And just plain, no substantive value.

I'd agree with the name calling, not the "no substantive value"...Doc's clearly explaining his point of view, engaging with details. Substance.

[LaxFan2000]

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

Talk about a one trick pony.

Are you ever gonna discuss any actual topics, or just your opinion of posters?

Want my opinion?? DocBarrister's post that I replied back to is more Anti-American than any post that OS has ever made. How's that?

No. What Doc wrote was boilerplate post WWII Conservative American, and that's why you're confused, because he's a Hillary-latte-liberal.

If you were against ANY war (or proxy war) that we fought since the 40's? You were labelled a hippy, called unpatriotic, and lectured to that "you just don't understand that the world is dangerous, and this is what we HAVE to do". Oh, and you didn't support our troops. Questioning war is bad.

And for all this time, it was conservative America lecturing to the hippies as to why (insert military intervention) was necessary to American security, and that if they didn't get it and didn't support it? They were stupid. And didn't support our troops.

Enter Trump, and "America first". Suddenly NATO is stupid, and giving weapons to Ukraine was stupid. And playing cop to the world is stupid. 60 years of foreign policy burnt to the ground.

So now it's (some) 2022 Republicans who are questioning why we're fighting a proxy war in Ukraine...after supporting every. single. proxy. war for 60 years without hesitation or any thought whatsoever.

So libs are confused, and don't get where the support for war went.

It would take you thousands of years to explain this to an alien from Mars.

Thanks for the insight. I more find it outrageous that someone on this site could possibly think an American (From the little I know about OS, he is the furthest thing from Anti-American!) is "actively rooting" for a foreign adversary in a war that in no single possible way benefits the United States (Beyond the removal of Putin from Power, This is implied!). You have to be either really dumb or have some major cajones to flat out come out and say that. That is a serious accusation. DocB is nowhere even close to being right with this assertation and everybody on this forum knows it. I call him out and I am the one getting attacked? People are missing the point here. We can't have people on this thread accusing others of "actively rooting" for foreign adversaries during times of war. It's never ok. Not now, not ever. That's my point.

Again, there's a very long history here 2000.
Let's assume for a heartbeat that you really don't understand that history and take your word for it that you are simply asking for things to be civil..ok.
But you seem to actually know more than you admit...it feels very much like this 2000 name is not your first alias...but if you really are a brand new participant, without the benefit of that history, perhaps a bit of humility would be in order.

While most of us have long considered Russia an "adversary", and certainly OS considered the Soviet Union to be such, there are indeed an awful lot of Americans who truly do consider Putin the relative "good guy" in this conflict, that America and the West have actually instigated this conflict through a series of actions over time, and have repeatedly pooh poohed the actual evil that Putin represents...they actually prefer right wing autocracy, especially white nationalist autocracy, and support that movement worldwide.

That first part of the last sentence may very well be true. Would you put to bed this alias stuff? I have no other alias, I don't know how else to say it in a language that can be understood. In this particular case,the poster that is being accused of such, in no way shape or form falls into that category. And you know that, because you are not agreeing with DocB's statement. His statement was directed at one poster. The fact that a great deal of Americans find Putin to be the "good guy" is neither here nor there. I don't know where the majority of these Americans are, because the majority of the people I interact and the people that they interact with cannot wait, until he's either deposed or dead. So I'm not sure there an awful lot like you describe. And please don't conflate Maga types with thinking Putin is the good guy. I know many of those who all think the exact opposite...

[DocBarrister]

Are you seriously this much of a one-trick pony? Where is this poster "siding with Putin"?? Do you understand just how serious of claim that is you are making? JFC. It's no wonder posters seem to ignore your hyperbole because you are entirely more interested in the emotion of what you post than whether or not there is any fact or substance to it. Beyond strange...

Talk about a one trick pony.

Are you ever gonna discuss any actual topics, or just your opinion of posters?

Want my opinion?? DocBarrister's post that I replied back to is more Anti-American than any post that OS has ever made. How's that?

No. What Doc wrote was boilerplate post WWII Conservative American, and that's why you're confused, because he's a Hillary-latte-liberal.

If you were against ANY war (or proxy war) that we fought since the 40's? You were labelled a hippy, called unpatriotic, and lectured to that "you just don't understand that the world is dangerous, and this is what we HAVE to do". Oh, and you didn't support our troops. Questioning war is bad.

And for all this time, it was conservative America lecturing to the hippies as to why (insert military intervention) was necessary to American security, and that if they didn't get it and didn't support it? They were stupid. And didn't support our troops.

Enter Trump, and "America first". Suddenly NATO is stupid, and giving weapons to Ukraine was stupid. And playing cop to the world is stupid. 60 years of foreign policy burnt to the ground.

So now it's (some) 2022 Republicans who are questioning why we're fighting a proxy war in Ukraine...after supporting every. single. proxy. war for 60 years without hesitation or any thought whatsoever.

So libs are confused, and don't get where the support for war went.

It would take you thousands of years to explain this to an alien from Mars.

Thanks for the insight. I more find it outrageous that someone on this site could possibly think an American (From the little I know about OS, he is the furthest thing from Anti-American!) is "actively rooting" for a foreign adversary in a war that in no single possible way benefits the United States (Beyond the removal of Putin from Power, This is implied!). You have to be either really dumb or have some major cajones to flat out come out and say that. That is a serious accusation. DocB is nowhere even close to being right with this assertation and everybody on this forum knows it. I call him out and I am the one getting attacked? People are missing the point here. We can't have people on this thread accusing others of "actively rooting" for foreign adversaries during times of war. It's never ok. Not now, not ever. That's my point.

Again, there's a very long history here 2000.
Let's assume for a heartbeat that you really don't understand that history and take your word for it that you are simply asking for things to be civil..ok.
But you seem to actually know more than you admit...it feels very much like this 2000 name is not your first alias...but if you really are a brand new participant, without the benefit of that history, perhaps a bit of humility would be in order.

While most of us have long considered Russia an "adversary", and certainly OS considered the Soviet Union to be such, there are indeed an awful lot of Americans who truly do consider Putin the relative "good guy" in this conflict, that America and the West have actually instigated this conflict through a series of actions over time, and have repeatedly pooh poohed the actual evil that Putin represents...they actually prefer right wing autocracy, especially white nationalist autocracy, and support that movement worldwide.

That first part of the last sentence may very well be true. Would you put to bed this alias stuff? I have no other alias, I don't know how else to say it in a language that can be understood. In this particular case,the poster that is being accused of such, in no way shape or form falls into that category. And you know that, because you are not agreeing with DocB's statement. His statement was directed at one poster. The fact that a great deal of Americans find Putin to be the "good guy" is neither here nor there. I don't know where the majority of these Americans are, because the majority of the people I interact and the people that they interact with cannot wait, until he's either deposed or dead. So I'm not sure there an awful lot like you describe. And please don't conflate Maga types with thinking Putin is the good guy. I know many of those who all think the exact opposite...

Ok, let’s take your word that you are actually new around here and that you are not an old forum member masquerading as a new member.

I would suggest that you take the time to read old salt’s earlier posts, because clearly you have not. He has garnered some “nicknames” on this forum (not from me), and there is a rationale for them.

If you are indeed new around here (and count me as skeptical but giving you the benefit of the doubt), you might consider MD’s admonishment about “humility.”

I rarely mention how long I have been part of this online community, but I first joined the predecessor LaxPower forum in 2005. I was among the earliest members of this forum when the LaxPower community transferred here. I have been posting as “DocBarrister” (and ONLY as “DocBarrister”) for over 17 years.

Now I’m getting lectured to by you, and you have even tried to compel me to stop posting on this forum. All by someone who claims to have joined this forum less than a month ago.

We all need to follow the rules on this forum, no matter how long we have been here.

I am respectfully asking you to show some humility and civility and to stop trolling me. If you continue to do so, I will continue to register my complaints with the Administrator.

Maybe after you have been a member of this community for 17 years, you can understand how irritating your trolling and efforts to censor me have been, especially by a rather presumptuous “newbie”.

Respectfully,
DocBarrister (community member since 2005 )

[old salt]

The Reuters article was quoting Lavrov’s use of the terms.

That’s very different from your use of the terms in your own post and your own comments.

You do recognize that the “LPR” and “DPR” are not real entities but rather terms employed by Russia’s propaganda machine? Why have you adopted their use? This is not the first time.

Show us the posts. I usually use "Donbas" -- this was more precise, since I was posting what I think Lavrov was signalling, using his terminology in the Reuters article you linked.

[old salt]

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?

Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?

Those are slanderous lies ! Show us the posts.

Understanding history & how it impacts current events does not constitute support.

It's a cheap trick, overused in this forum, to accuse someone of treason or of being a Russian agent or sympathizer if they try to understand the Russian perspective & what motivates the Russian people, & thus their leaders.

I was trained that to defeat your adversary - you must first understand them & view things from their perspective to better anticipate, counter, deter & defend against their next moves. Taxpayers funded that training.

[LaxFan2000]

… did you know that in the early months following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, old salt wouldn’t even acknowledge Ukraine as a separate and independent nation?

Did you know that old salt repeatedly described Putin’s invasion of Ukraine as an internal Russian matter?

Those are slanderous lies ! Show us the posts.

Understanding history & how it impacts current events does not constitute support.

It's a cheap trick, overused in this forum, to accuse someone of treason or of being a Russian agent or sympathizer if they try to understand the Russian perspective & what motivates the Russian people, & thus their leaders.

I was trained that to defeat your adversary - you must first understand them & view things from their perspective to better anticipate, counter, deter & defend against their next moves. Taxpayers funded that training.

Well said!

[DocBarrister]

Russia should keep Crimea because of....POLLS??

What a wonderful thought! Authoritarians the world over rejoice at the determinative import that polls now (evidently) have...

Because Crimea & the DNR/LNR are now governed by Russia & a majority of the residents want it that way.

It is not without precedent. Consider how the former Yugoslavia has been segmented, & continues to be.
NATO went to war with Serbia to establish independence for Kosovo.

Is it worth a war to return those areas to Ukrainian control if the residents want to be part of Russia again.

You guys are like the Eagle Scout wannabe who needed one more merit badge, so he dragged a little old lady across the street, only to find out she didn't want to cross.

I have not seen a reporting on your statement about large populations in these areas being supportive of becoming part of Russia. Can you share a link/links? Certainly did not appear to be the case in Kharkiv, Dnipro, Mykolaiv or Mariupol.

Those places are not in Crimea & the DNR/LNR -- the areas controlled by Russia since 2014 which were the subjects of my lengthy post above.

Thanks. Then why invade and attempt to destroy all of the other parts of the country?
Unless the real plan was to quickly capture Kyiv, depose the government and replace it with a Russian-backed outfit.

I think Salty's argument, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I have this wrong, is that the simplest "off ramp" is to give Putin what he de facto already had taken by force, assuming that would actually end the "war". (Assuming he'd take that or be satisfied for long with just that... you are of course correct that Putin wanted it all and expected to have it all...and more...). If it doesn't end the war, a cease fire in place & protracted negotiation buys time to better arm the Ukrainians & more time for EU-NATO to slow march their forces to the E front. Also time to establish humanitarian safe zones.

However..."is it worth a war?"...the Ukrainians say yes, and have been fighting since 2014. They oppose having their territorial integrity breached and they want it back. Moreover, those areas are not recognized as Russia, they are still part of Ukraine, no matter who is occupying currently.
I look forward to you making that argument when China invades Taiwan.

I did find it interesting that Salty has now slid over to calling DNR/LNR "controlled by Russia" after so many months of claims that it was "separatists" fighting and polling that they wish to be "independent. Total BS that was of course, as Salty's now admitting Calm down. Salty's admitting nothing, especially your false characterizations. I picked up DNR/LNR from the articles I linked on polling. It's shorthand for the separatist controlled areas of the Donbas. Read those polls & see the %'s who favored independence, as well as the %'s who favored Russian control. I never denied that the separatists in DNR/LNR were Russian proxies. The separatists do indeed control the DNR/LNR. ...it was the Russians in there fighting the Ukrainians. But not actually "controlled", that would only be if the Ukrainians stopped fighting...eg Putin wins, aggression works.

I truly don't see this ending until Putin's military is thoroughly defeated and retreats. Preferably turning on Putin.
It appears that the Ukrainians are both willing to endure immense sacrifice and are making forward progress now, so it's entirely in the realm of possible that such will occur. ,,,but are NATO, the EU & the US willing to provide the support needed & endure the costs & side effects indefinitely ?

But the whole world is gonna be hurting until this is fully over. What a waste.
But let's be very, very clear, that's on Putin and all of his enablers and apologists.
All the additional deaths & carnage from extending the war are worth it, so long as armchair virtue signalers in the US can blame it on Putin.

Here you go as you requested, old salt. This is just one instance where you used the terms. “DPR” and “LPR” are not shorthand for separatist controlled areas in Ukraine.

They are Russian propaganda terms used to convey the false impression that those regions are now independent and no longer a part of Ukraine. By using those terms, you are supporting that false assertion by Russia.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

^^^^^

The Reuters article was quoting Lavrov’s use of the terms.

That’s very different from your use of the terms in your own post and your own comments.

You do recognize that the “LPR” and “DPR” are not real entities but rather terms employed by Russia’s propaganda machine? Why have you adopted their use? This is not the first time.

Show us the posts. I usually use "Donbas" -- this was more precise, since I was posting what I think Lavrov was signalling, using his terminology in the Reuters article you linked.

[DocBarrister]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a huge cost of extended warfare, to the world, not just the US and our EU allies.

Likewise, I don't think anyone would argue that IF Putin was willing to abandon his aggression, it wouldn't be terrific. If he even simply wanted to back off a bit, give up control of Mariupol and south of there.

But I don't think Putin is interested, remotely, in stopping even where they are now. And won't be until his military says they can't take it anymore. We're not dealing with a rational, much less honest, actor.

SO...my view is that we should be hoping that our superior systems and targeting capabilities, with greater range, once actually deployed, will indeed pound the crap out of the Russian military...and their morale does break... fully.

I'm not buying, yet, the narrative that this MUST be a long, multi-year war with the kind of pace of costs we're committing to these next 6 months. I think this thing can actually be won.

Sure hope I'm right, as I think the Ukrainian people would toss Zelensky on his ear if he didn't press forward at this point.

The Ukrainian people accepted Russian control of Crimea & LNR/DNR. They did not believe Russia would invade farther. They'll accept the loss of the land bridge too, so long as they can go home, rebuild & live in peace.

Putin failed to take back all of Ukraine, but the land bridge is critical to consolidating Crimea & guaranteeing unfettered Black Sea access.
Russia now holds from Kherson to Mariupol. Given the terrain & access, it will be a challenge to dislodge them from there. That's the territory necessary to guarantee overland access & fresh water supply to Crimea, control the Sea of Azov, & guarantee ports & shipping routes for Russian exports, without Ukrainian interference. imo -- Putin would accept that & spin it domestically as regaining Novorossiya. imho, he could then be deterred from pursing more, now that we are arming Ukraine & they have demonstrated their ability & willingness to fight to defend their nation.

Why do you keep telling these lies?

Ukraine has NEVER accepted the invasion and occupation of Crimea. Ukraine has NEVER accepted the Russian invasion and occupation of LNR/DNR. In fact, there is no such thing as the LNR/DNR. Ukraine has been fighting a war in Eastern Ukraine for the past eight years.

Why would you state such blatant lies on this forum?

You are supporting the lies of a fascist Russian dictator. Completely disgraceful.

DocBarrister

Well, I don't think I'd have gone quite there if I'd responded first, as I do find Salty's perspectives interesting, but you are 100% correct that Ukraine and the Ukrainians have never "accepted Russian control of Crimea & LNR/DNR" nor did they not think Putin would invade further if they stopped fighting and withdrew from the conflict. It was the West that bought the tall tale that Putin was a rational actor and wouldn't actually invade with the intent of crushing Ukraine, erasing any notion of an independent Ukrainian state, any notion that there's a Ukrainian people at all...

and "we" bought it because it was in our "interest" do so, whether because we wanted cheap energy or because we were afraid, like Salty, of another Cold War. Putin put out his propaganda and many, many parroted it for years.

But Putin isn't a reasonable, rational actor and he never intended to stop.

Nor should we so naive as to imagine he'd stop now.

What's really outrageous to me is that Salty is asking for Ukraine to sacrifice huge amounts critical land and resources to Russia, (according to Salty all Putin actually wants anyway...BS) and just go powder their noses. And then he's going to turn around and tell us the next aggression "isn't the West's war"...unless, of course, it's China...

Russia took Crimea & the territory they declared as DNR/LNR in 2014, with little to no resistance. During the ensuing 8 years, what did the Ukrainians do to drive out the Russians ? Those territories were taken with little to no resistance. They finally resisted after the territory that was declared LNR/DNR was taken, but they didn't subsequently recover any lost territory. They took significant casualties in trench warfare in the Donbas, but did little to drive out the Russians in any of those areas. Even as Russia massed their invasion forces, they ignored US warnings of an imminent invasion. They were content to live with a frozen low level conflict for 8 years, with Russia holding Crimea & LNR/DNR until Russia invaded. They did not even mobilize nationally to fight until invasion was imminent.

Ukraine has been independent for 30 years. They inherited the best of the Soviet military, industrial & ag capacity, which they squandered. You are seeing the remnants of that capability asserted now. For 3 decades, they wasted that advantage & did little to build the capability to defend themselves. They could have invested in their military, just as Russia did. Now it is somehow our responsibility to fund them taking back the territory they failed to defend & recover over the past 8 years. That is territory behind artificial, arbitrary borders, based on Russian provincial boundaries retained by the USSR. They are irrational as national boundaries, guaranteed to provoke disputes & instability.

Putin will have to stop because he will be incapable of going farther. If Ukraine stays mobilized as a nation, committed to their defense, with US & NATO support, they can finally defend themselves against further Russian advances, now that they have finally demonstrated the resolve to do so. ...unless they return to being a corrupt oligarchy, which they have still not demonstrated that they are not. Give Rand Paul the IG he's requesting to make sure the $40B doesn't go to grifters like Manafort & Hunter.

Here you are falsely and inaccurately arguing that Ukraine accepted Russia’s annexation of Crimea and “LNR/DNR”. I correct you by saying “LNR/DNR” does not exist.

Later in the post, you pay lip service to Ukraine’s independence but then essentially state that Ukraine’s borders are “artificial, arbitrary borders, based on Russian provincial boundaries retained by the USSR.” THAT by the way, is Russia and Putin’s view of those “arbitrary” borders.

One of the many striking aspects of the invasion has been how much histories of border-drawing seem to matter. Days before invading, the Russian president claimed that “modern Ukraine was entirely created by … communist Russia”. In doing this, he said, Lenin transferred “to the newly, often arbitrarily formed administrative units – the union republics – vast territories that had nothing to do with them”.

https://theconversation.com/amp/ukraine ... out-178708

Not only did you make the ridiculous assertion that Ukraine essentially accepted Russia’s occupation of vast portions of Ukraine, but you also adopted Putin’s view on the formation of Ukraine’s “arbitrary” borders … an argument that those territories didn’t really belong to Ukraine at all.

Do I need to post more or is this enough, old salt.

Thank you. I’m turning in for the evening.

DocBarrister