The North Korea Problem

[cradleandshoot]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

[MDlaxfan76]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

What is "the inevitable"?

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" with the Obama deal? Answer: delay

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" by pulling out? Answer: accelerate

You do realize that while you don't trust the Iranians (who does? classic "trust but verify" ala Reagan situation), our intelligence services and those of our allies have been convinced that the Iranians have been honoring the deal made. No nuclear weapon. They also were very clear that if the Iranians had wanted to finish a weapon (s) they would have been able to do so in the interim. Indeed, quite awhile ago. I doubt you are better informed than our intelligence services.

You can certainly argue that Obama should have made a better deal, which is definitely an arguable position. It's much harder to argue that he could have made a better deal that would have accomplished a delay of what you call "the inevitable". We weren't in the negotiations.

The calculation, according to those who actually worked on these negotiations, was that "delay" provided a greater probability of time for reform in Iran to take hold, avoiding such an "inevitable" outcome. With the right ongoing incentives to not go nuclear, a nuclear arms race might well be avoided.

Naive? Maybe...but they hadn't (yet) gone nuclear.

[cradleandshoot]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

What is "the inevitable"?

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" with the Obama deal? Answer: delay

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" by pulling out? Answer: accelerate

You do realize that while you don't trust the Iranians (who does? classic "trust but verify" ala Reagan situation), our intelligence services and those of our allies have been convinced that the Iranians have been honoring the deal made. No nuclear weapon. They also were very clear that if the Iranians had wanted to finish a weapon (s) they would have been able to do so in the interim. Indeed, quite awhile ago. I doubt you are better informed than our intelligence services.

You can certainly argue that Obama should have made a better deal, which is definitely an arguable position. It's much harder to argue that he could have made a better deal that would have accomplished a delay of what you call "the inevitable". We weren't in the negotiations.

The calculation, according to those who actually worked on these negotiations, was that "delay" provided a greater probability of time for reform in Iran to take hold, avoiding such an "inevitable" outcome. With the right ongoing incentives to not go nuclear, a nuclear arms race might well be avoided.

Naive? Maybe...but they hadn't (yet) gone nuclear.

Speaking just for myself MD, I do not trust the Iranian government. I do not know what POTUS Obama expected in the long game here. This is industrial strength kicking the can down the road. This is saying you can have nukes, but let us make a feeble attempt to delay that for 10 years or so. Certainly Obama could have made a better deal. He was dealing from a hand of strength. The concept is really very simple. Iran gets rid of every trace of anything nuclear in the country. Nothing is off limits from investigation or suspicion. Full compliance 100% no questions asked. In return all sanctions are lifted and you have a path to becoming a civilized nation again. The Iranians bent BHO over at the waist and in the words of Rev. Wright they rode him dirty. This thing that BHO concocted was nothing short of an abomination to the USA. He sold America out to a country that wishes nothing but ill will to America and our people. If that thing that Obama came up with gives you some sort of a warm feeling of joy, well I don't share those sentiments. Barack Obama was punked and that is about the kindest thing I can say about this sordid affair.

[a fan]

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time

Obama's deal worked. Period. Our intel said they were months from a bomb. It's now four years later, and counting.

What you, and others, are saying we should have done is nothing: hold the sanctions. Which means they would have gotten the bomb.

Sorry, that's nuts.

As for not trusting Iran, my problem is that we're the idiots who created this entire mess. The US of A installed the Shah, undoing Iranian elections. 100% our fault. We are the idiots who provoked the rebellion.

And then, to make matters worse, we took out Saddam, wrecking the balance of power. And yet here we are saying "Iran is now the dominant power in the region, and they are looking to increase their power".

Yup. And who's fault is that? Who INTENTIONALLY chose Iran as the winner in this region? Yep. We did. A country thousands of miles away.

So for me, acting like the Iranian leaders are the problem when America literally ushered them into power, and then gave them MORE power by taking out Saddam for them, is a bit much to swallow.

[Brooklyn]

Koreagate toons:

[MDlaxfan76]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

What is "the inevitable"?

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" with the Obama deal? Answer: delay

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" by pulling out? Answer: accelerate

You do realize that while you don't trust the Iranians (who does? classic "trust but verify" ala Reagan situation), our intelligence services and those of our allies have been convinced that the Iranians have been honoring the deal made. No nuclear weapon. They also were very clear that if the Iranians had wanted to finish a weapon (s) they would have been able to do so in the interim. Indeed, quite awhile ago. I doubt you are better informed than our intelligence services.

You can certainly argue that Obama should have made a better deal, which is definitely an arguable position. It's much harder to argue that he could have made a better deal that would have accomplished a delay of what you call "the inevitable". We weren't in the negotiations.

The calculation, according to those who actually worked on these negotiations, was that "delay" provided a greater probability of time for reform in Iran to take hold, avoiding such an "inevitable" outcome. With the right ongoing incentives to not go nuclear, a nuclear arms race might well be avoided.

Naive? Maybe...but they hadn't (yet) gone nuclear.

Speaking just for myself MD, I do not trust the Iranian government. I do not know what POTUS Obama expected in the long game here. This is industrial strength kicking the can down the road. This is saying you can have nukes, but let us make a feeble attempt to delay that for 10 years or so. Certainly Obama could have made a better deal. He was dealing from a hand of strength. The concept is really very simple. Iran gets rid of every trace of anything nuclear in the country. Nothing is off limits from investigation or suspicion. Full compliance 100% no questions asked. In return all sanctions are lifted and you have a path to becoming a civilized nation again. The Iranians bent BHO over at the waist and in the words of Rev. Wright they rode him dirty. This thing that BHO concocted was nothing short of an abomination to the USA. He sold America out to a country that wishes nothing but ill will to America and our people. If that thing that Obama came up with gives you some sort of a warm feeling of joy, well I don't share those sentiments. Barack Obama was punked and that is about the kindest thing I can say about this sordid affair.

I think we understand that you've bought this line of reasoning hook line and sinker.

That doesn't mean it is rational at all. As you say, "sorry".

Sure, we can 'imagine' a better deal, but there's zero basis to saying no deal would have been better. That would mean Iran has multiple nuclear weapons and has demonstrated that they have them. With the Saudis right behind them. Egypt and others as well.

Maybe you and Fox crew would feel better about not having 'bent over', but we're talking rapid nuclear proliferation in the Middle East.
Don't "trust" the Iranians? Gee, the Sunnis and Shias and Israelis...what could go wrong?`

[cradleandshoot]

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time

Obama's deal worked. Period. Our intel said they were months from a bomb. It's now four years later, and counting.

What you, and others, are saying we should have done is nothing: hold the sanctions. Which means they would have gotten the bomb.

Sorry, that's nuts.

As for not trusting Iran, my problem is that we're the idiots who created this entire mess. The US of A installed the Shah, undoing Iranian elections. 100% our fault. We are the idiots who provoked the rebellion.

And then, to make matters worse, we took out Saddam, wrecking the balance of power. And yet here we are saying "Iran is now the dominant power in the region, and they are looking to increase their power".

Yup. And who's fault is that? Who INTENTIONALLY chose Iran as the winner in this region? Yep. We did. A country thousands of miles away.

So for me, acting like the Iranian leaders are the problem when America literally ushered them into power, and then gave them MORE power by taking out Saddam for them, is a bit much to swallow.

https://nypost.com/2016/06/04/how-ayato ... my-carter/ Did any of this ever come up in your college debate classes a Fan? It was Jimmy Carter that helped usher in the wonderful humanitarian Ayatollah Khomeni… what a sweetheart he was. What was that you said about the USA meddling in the affairs of Iran? Bad with the Shah but good with Khomeni… that sure worked out good for the USA didn't it?

[cradleandshoot]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

What is "the inevitable"?

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" with the Obama deal? Answer: delay

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" by pulling out? Answer: accelerate

You do realize that while you don't trust the Iranians (who does? classic "trust but verify" ala Reagan situation), our intelligence services and those of our allies have been convinced that the Iranians have been honoring the deal made. No nuclear weapon. They also were very clear that if the Iranians had wanted to finish a weapon (s) they would have been able to do so in the interim. Indeed, quite awhile ago. I doubt you are better informed than our intelligence services.

You can certainly argue that Obama should have made a better deal, which is definitely an arguable position. It's much harder to argue that he could have made a better deal that would have accomplished a delay of what you call "the inevitable". We weren't in the negotiations.

The calculation, according to those who actually worked on these negotiations, was that "delay" provided a greater probability of time for reform in Iran to take hold, avoiding such an "inevitable" outcome. With the right ongoing incentives to not go nuclear, a nuclear arms race might well be avoided.

Naive? Maybe...but they hadn't (yet) gone nuclear.

Speaking just for myself MD, I do not trust the Iranian government. I do not know what POTUS Obama expected in the long game here. This is industrial strength kicking the can down the road. This is saying you can have nukes, but let us make a feeble attempt to delay that for 10 years or so. Certainly Obama could have made a better deal. He was dealing from a hand of strength. The concept is really very simple. Iran gets rid of every trace of anything nuclear in the country. Nothing is off limits from investigation or suspicion. Full compliance 100% no questions asked. In return all sanctions are lifted and you have a path to becoming a civilized nation again. The Iranians bent BHO over at the waist and in the words of Rev. Wright they rode him dirty. This thing that BHO concocted was nothing short of an abomination to the USA. He sold America out to a country that wishes nothing but ill will to America and our people. If that thing that Obama came up with gives you some sort of a warm feeling of joy, well I don't share those sentiments. Barack Obama was punked and that is about the kindest thing I can say about this sordid affair.

I think we understand that you've bought this line of reasoning hook line and sinker.

That doesn't mean it is rational at all. As you say, "sorry".

Sure, we can 'imagine' a better deal, but there's zero basis to saying no deal would have been better. That would mean Iran has multiple nuclear weapons and has demonstrated that they have them. With the Saudis right behind them. Egypt and others as well.

Maybe you and Fox crew would feel better about not having 'bent over', but we're talking rapid nuclear proliferation in the Middle East.
Don't "trust" the Iranians? Gee, the Sunnis and Shias and Israelis...what could go wrong?`

No deal is better than a really bad deal. Do you remember our dead soldiers being mutilated by smiling Iranians after the failed hostage rescue back in 1979? I do, if you want to kiss the Iranians ass right now you can use your own lips I have not forgotten what they did nor will I ever forget it. The only deal that should have been made with Iran is real simple... you get rid of all of your nukes or we will help you get rid of them. I get it, that is not a solution you would agree with, that is my opinion of the option they should have been given. The problem is not going away. Do you really think that the Israelis will allow Iran to deploy nukes and threaten them? Obama kicked the can down the road when he let the Iranians make a fool of him. You want to trust Iran and feel all lovey dovey about what is going on... knock yourself out. Iran is who they are, a nation governed by people with evil intentions based on their extreme religious beliefs.

[a fan]

You didn't go back far enough.

1953:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_ ... Revolution


And you're quoting John Bolton?

What Bolton, oldsalt, and tech37 are leaving out is this little detail: Like Curtis LeMay, they are intentionally putting a train on a track that leads to nuclear war. They WANT to hit Iran. They, like LeMay did with Russia and Cuban missiles, believe that Iran is the devil and can't be trusted in any circumstance, so they put Iran on the a path that allows the crazier elements in Iran to prevail, and get that nuclear bomb.

Then what? No one wants to discuss that part.

Nuclear war in ME. Oh yeah, that's a brilliant strategy. Let's do that. Let's give the nutjobs that exist in every government (witness our Bolton) the keys to the Camaro. What could possibly go wrong?

Or, we could encourage level heads to take the wheel, as we did in Cuba. And willyalookiehere.......25 years later, bye-bye Soviet Union.

[a fan]

No deal is better than a really bad deal.

Well, I've got great news for you, tech, and old salt. You all got what you wanted.

Should be smooooth sailing from here on out........

[Trinity]

Turns out tough guy John Bolton will say anything under pressure. Give it another week and it will be Otto’s fault.

[MDlaxfan76]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

What is "the inevitable"?

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" with the Obama deal? Answer: delay

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" by pulling out? Answer: accelerate

You do realize that while you don't trust the Iranians (who does? classic "trust but verify" ala Reagan situation), our intelligence services and those of our allies have been convinced that the Iranians have been honoring the deal made. No nuclear weapon. They also were very clear that if the Iranians had wanted to finish a weapon (s) they would have been able to do so in the interim. Indeed, quite awhile ago. I doubt you are better informed than our intelligence services.

You can certainly argue that Obama should have made a better deal, which is definitely an arguable position. It's much harder to argue that he could have made a better deal that would have accomplished a delay of what you call "the inevitable". We weren't in the negotiations.

The calculation, according to those who actually worked on these negotiations, was that "delay" provided a greater probability of time for reform in Iran to take hold, avoiding such an "inevitable" outcome. With the right ongoing incentives to not go nuclear, a nuclear arms race might well be avoided.

Naive? Maybe...but they hadn't (yet) gone nuclear.

Speaking just for myself MD, I do not trust the Iranian government. I do not know what POTUS Obama expected in the long game here. This is industrial strength kicking the can down the road. This is saying you can have nukes, but let us make a feeble attempt to delay that for 10 years or so. Certainly Obama could have made a better deal. He was dealing from a hand of strength. The concept is really very simple. Iran gets rid of every trace of anything nuclear in the country. Nothing is off limits from investigation or suspicion. Full compliance 100% no questions asked. In return all sanctions are lifted and you have a path to becoming a civilized nation again. The Iranians bent BHO over at the waist and in the words of Rev. Wright they rode him dirty. This thing that BHO concocted was nothing short of an abomination to the USA. He sold America out to a country that wishes nothing but ill will to America and our people. If that thing that Obama came up with gives you some sort of a warm feeling of joy, well I don't share those sentiments. Barack Obama was punked and that is about the kindest thing I can say about this sordid affair.

I think we understand that you've bought this line of reasoning hook line and sinker.

That doesn't mean it is rational at all. As you say, "sorry".

Sure, we can 'imagine' a better deal, but there's zero basis to saying no deal would have been better. That would mean Iran has multiple nuclear weapons and has demonstrated that they have them. With the Saudis right behind them. Egypt and others as well.

Maybe you and Fox crew would feel better about not having 'bent over', but we're talking rapid nuclear proliferation in the Middle East.
Don't "trust" the Iranians? Gee, the Sunnis and Shias and Israelis...what could go wrong?`

No deal is better than a really bad deal. Do you remember our dead soldiers being mutilated by smiling Iranians after the failed hostage rescue back in 1979? I do, if you want to kiss the Iranians ass right now you can use your own lips I have not forgotten what they did nor will I ever forget it. The only deal that should have been made with Iran is real simple... you get rid of all of your nukes or we will help you get rid of them. I get it, that is not a solution you would agree with, that is my opinion of the option they should have been given. The problem is not going away. Do you really think that the Israelis will allow Iran to deploy nukes and threaten them? Obama kicked the can down the road when he let the Iranians make a fool of him. You want to trust Iran and feel all lovey dovey about what is going on... knock yourself out. Iran is who they are, a nation governed by people with evil intentions based on their extreme religious beliefs.

I really do understand what it would have felt good to say to the mullahs. Heck, that's exactly what we'd been saying for years, and so they heard us loud and clear and knew they needed to go nuclear.

But your alternative to a "really bad deal" would have either been A) a nuclear arms race in the ME or B) a preemptive war, killing hundreds of thousands or millions, with massive migration to Europe of those fleeing.

Which one would you choose? A or B?

Or would you now like to consider option C?

[runrussellrun]

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time

Obama's deal worked. Period. Our intel said they were months from a bomb. It's now four years later, and counting.

What you, and others, are saying we should have done is nothing: hold the sanctions. Which means they would have gotten the bomb.

Sorry, that's nuts.

As for not trusting Iran, my problem is that we're the idiots who created this entire mess. The US of A installed the Shah, undoing Iranian elections. 100% our fault. We are the idiots who provoked the rebellion.

And then, to make matters worse, we took out Saddam, wrecking the balance of power. And yet here we are saying "Iran is now the dominant power in the region, and they are looking to increase their power".

Yup. And who's fault is that? Who INTENTIONALLY chose Iran as the winner in this region? Yep. We did. A country thousands of miles away.

So for me, acting like the Iranian leaders are the problem when America literally ushered them into power, and then gave them MORE power by taking out Saddam for them, is a bit much to swallow.

as most things do.......blame falls squarely on the inventors of modern day terrorism.....the BRITS. And that Irish hating twit Winston.

[Brooklyn]

Funny how right wingers have been telling us for decades that Iran is on the verge of producing nukes but they have failed to provide any evidence to back up this claim. Meanwhile, as for Trump's pals in North Korea:

[jhu72]

I appreciate the education. Truly. Always do.

My frustration is that Obama had a plan with these. Focus on the nuclear component. Perfect? Nope. Not even close. But I'll take 1/2 of the equation over nothing.

Trump's---or your---- plan about these are.......what?

Are you familiar with expression half measures will avail you nothing? Personally I think the folks running Iran are really nasty, evil folks who should not be trusted. My frustration with Obama's deal was at best it delays the inevitable and still gives Iran the option to hide any dirty business they are up to in their military facilities that are OFF LIMITS to any inspections. There is the false sense of security in thinking that Obama bought us all more time. All he did was give them billions of dollars to expand their terrorist operations. Everybody wants to believe that Iran is in compliance. Who really knows with these folks? If you are willing to feel all warm and fuzzy that the Iranians are doing the right thing... I don't share your confidence on that point. What Obama did was roll the dice and hope like hell he didn't crap out. It is hard to feel good about a supposed "deal" that does nothing more than put the problem on the back burner. I would be willing to bet that the nation of Israel is not all that comfortable about it.

What is "the inevitable"?

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" with the Obama deal? Answer: delay

Did we accelerate or delay the "inevitable" by pulling out? Answer: accelerate

You do realize that while you don't trust the Iranians (who does? classic "trust but verify" ala Reagan situation), our intelligence services and those of our allies have been convinced that the Iranians have been honoring the deal made. No nuclear weapon. They also were very clear that if the Iranians had wanted to finish a weapon (s) they would have been able to do so in the interim. Indeed, quite awhile ago. I doubt you are better informed than our intelligence services.

You can certainly argue that Obama should have made a better deal, which is definitely an arguable position. It's much harder to argue that he could have made a better deal that would have accomplished a delay of what you call "the inevitable". We weren't in the negotiations.

The calculation, according to those who actually worked on these negotiations, was that "delay" provided a greater probability of time for reform in Iran to take hold, avoiding such an "inevitable" outcome. With the right ongoing incentives to not go nuclear, a nuclear arms race might well be avoided.

Naive? Maybe...but they hadn't (yet) gone nuclear.

Speaking just for myself MD, I do not trust the Iranian government. I do not know what POTUS Obama expected in the long game here. This is industrial strength kicking the can down the road. This is saying you can have nukes, but let us make a feeble attempt to delay that for 10 years or so. Certainly Obama could have made a better deal. He was dealing from a hand of strength. The concept is really very simple. Iran gets rid of every trace of anything nuclear in the country. Nothing is off limits from investigation or suspicion. Full compliance 100% no questions asked. In return all sanctions are lifted and you have a path to becoming a civilized nation again. The Iranians bent BHO over at the waist and in the words of Rev. Wright they rode him dirty. This thing that BHO concocted was nothing short of an abomination to the USA. He sold America out to a country that wishes nothing but ill will to America and our people. If that thing that Obama came up with gives you some sort of a warm feeling of joy, well I don't share those sentiments. Barack Obama was punked and that is about the kindest thing I can say about this sordid affair.

I think we understand that you've bought this line of reasoning hook line and sinker.

That doesn't mean it is rational at all. As you say, "sorry".

Sure, we can 'imagine' a better deal, but there's zero basis to saying no deal would have been better. That would mean Iran has multiple nuclear weapons and has demonstrated that they have them. With the Saudis right behind them. Egypt and others as well.

Maybe you and Fox crew would feel better about not having 'bent over', but we're talking rapid nuclear proliferation in the Middle East.
Don't "trust" the Iranians? Gee, the Sunnis and Shias and Israelis...what could go wrong?`

No deal is better than a really bad deal. Do you remember our dead soldiers being mutilated by smiling Iranians after the failed hostage rescue back in 1979? I do, if you want to kiss the Iranians ass right now you can use your own lips I have not forgotten what they did nor will I ever forget it. The only deal that should have been made with Iran is real simple... you get rid of all of your nukes or we will help you get rid of them. I get it, that is not a solution you would agree with, that is my opinion of the option they should have been given. The problem is not going away. Do you really think that the Israelis will allow Iran to deploy nukes and threaten them? Obama kicked the can down the road when he let the Iranians make a fool of him. You want to trust Iran and feel all lovey dovey about what is going on... knock yourself out. Iran is who they are, a nation governed by people with evil intentions based on their extreme religious beliefs.

I really do understand what it would have felt good to say to the mullahs. Heck, that's exactly what we'd been saying for years, and so they heard us loud and clear and knew they needed to go nuclear.

But your alternative to a "really bad deal" would have either been A) a nuclear arms race in the ME or B) a preemptive war, killing hundreds of thousands or millions, with massive migration to Europe of those fleeing.

Which one would you choose? A or B?

Or would you now like to consider option C?

Its risible that we have Trump apologists telling us that the name of the game is delay when it comes to nuclear proliferation. This is the game plan - it is Trump's (great) game plan; but yet Obama's clear success by this metric is a failure, it is wrongheaded, it didn't work (all evidence to the contrary). War is peace, peace is war. Orwell would be proud.

[old salt]

Otto was taken hostage in 2015. Missile & nuc device testing continued until Trump engaged with Kim.
Strategic patience, while refusing to engage, was not working.
Obama was too morally superior to meet with Kim, while Otto was brutalized in prison & Kim kept testing missiles & detonating hucs.
A course change was long overdue. Trump was the first US President who would stoop to meet with Kim.
Now his successors can continue the dialogue without sullying their petticoats.

[MDlaxfan76]

Otto was taken hostage in 2015. Missile & nuc device testing continued until Trump engaged with Kim.
Strategic patience, while refusing to engage, was not working.
Obama was too morally superior to meet with Kim, while Otto was brutalized in prison & Kim kept testing missiles & detonating hucs.
A course change was long overdue. Trump was the first US President who would stoop to meet with Kim.
Now his successors can continue the dialogue without sullying their petticoats.

All hail Trump.

[CU77]

The only deal that should have been made with Iran is real simple... you get rid of all of your nukes or we will help you get rid of them.

And when Iran sez: we don't have any nukes, go away?

As best I can tell, you would then launch a pre-emptive nuclear first strike.

Is that correct? I would really like you to state exactly what your plan would be in this situation. (Prediction: you will refuse to do so, you will simply re-declare how nasty the Iranians are.)

The strike would have to be huge to make sure we get all the underground facilities. Civilian casualties in the tens of millions at least. The vast majority of Muslims across the world would condemn us. What will happen next? Have you game-planned that out???

[old salt]

Otto was taken hostage in 2015. Missile & nuc device testing continued until Trump engaged with Kim.
Strategic patience, while refusing to engage, was not working.
Obama was too morally superior to meet with Kim, while Otto was brutalized in prison & Kim kept testing missiles & detonating hucs.
A course change was long overdue. Trump was the first US President who would stoop to meet with Kim.
Now his successors can continue the dialogue without sullying their petticoats.

All hail Trump.

Nope. Just a rational assessment. A much less dangerous situation then 3 years ago & a pathway ahead.
Obama told Trump that N Korea would be the most difficult & dangerous situation he faced, coming into office.
It appears that Trump took him seriously.

[CU77]

Obama was too morally superior to meet with Kim

Such a shame the lp archives are not available. I would love to be able to go back & look up your reaction to Obama's statement (during an early primary debate in 2008) that he would meet with our enemies (like Iran and North Korea) without pre-conditions. Pretty sure you were among those blasting him as dangerously naive.