Israel and Zionism

[Farfromgeneva]

Saw some activity here and got excited that we were going to finally get a demonstration of the space laser. So disappointed. Soros is a really lazy, slacker dirt merchant I guess...

[Peter Brown]

It is beyond time to cut this fascist government loose.

Israel:

Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights

Palestine:

Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights

Guess who JHU72 and libs side with?

[Kinduv]

It is beyond time to cut this fascist government loose.

Israel:
Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights
Palestine:
Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights
Guess who JHU72 and libs side with?

YES! PREACH, PBr0wn! Jews are americans! the arabs are N0T! Peach, PBr0wn, preach! 1ibs hate amer1ca and amer1cans!

[Matnum PI]

[jhu72]

... great response, well thought out.

Israel has become the thing that most Jews hate most. A fascist bully. It is time for the US to explain to Israel that we do not approve of their behavior and that we are cutting them loose. When they "grow up", we can consider renewed relations.

We have guaranteed their existence long enough, long beyond the time it was necessary. They are more than capable of defending themselves.

[Matnum PI]

Israel has become the thing that most Jews hate most. A fascist bully. It is time for the US to explain to Israel that we do not approve of their behavior and that we are cutting them loose. When they "grow up", we can consider renewed relations.

USA is little different in how we handle similar situations. Incredibly similar. We have much more muscle and flex it early and often with numerous casualties on their side and limited on ours. including non-militants. Very similar.

[jhu72]

Israel has become the thing that most Jews hate most. A fascist bully. It is time for the US to explain to Israel that we do not approve of their behavior and that we are cutting them loose. When they "grow up", we can consider renewed relations.

USA is little different in how we handle similar situations. Incredibly similar. We have much more muscle and flex it early and often with numerous casualties on their side and limited on ours. including non-militants. Very similar.

This is true as well. Still not a justification (not your intent I am sure) for putting up with it out of Israel.

[Matnum PI]

This is true as well. Still not a justification (not your intent I am sure) for putting up with it out of Israel.

no. not a justification. but when we put ourselves in isreal's shoes, which is relatively easy because we're very similar, it's easier to understand why they do what they do. for example, post-9/11, in general, america is not going to apologize for killing more people in certain regions than they killed of ours.

[jhu72]

This is true as well. Still not a justification (not your intent I am sure) for putting up with it out of Israel.

no. not a justification. but when we put ourselves in isreal's shoes, which is relatively easy because we're very similar, it's easier to understand why they do what they do. for example, post-9/11, in general, america is not going to apologize for killing more people in certain regions than they killed of ours.

... this needs to change as well. We are only hurting ourselves and making ourselves less safe.

[PizzaSnake]

Not to be too Kissinger-esque, but how about a little real-politick analysis if we can’t agree on the clear-cut moral angle?

What do we gain from our support versus what do we get?

As we become less dependent (we’d better become)on fossil fuels, the less value Israel represents in Middle East calculus.

Israel’s arch enemy, Iran, is not a particular threat to the US.

Israel is not our ally (there is no alliance). In fact, they gave demonstrated a willingness to conduct serious negative operations against the US.

Economic:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2538128?seq=1

National security breach of unknown proportion:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Longstanding history of operations against the U.S.:

“Prior to Israel’s creation in 1948, a Zionist underground existed in the US for the purpose of smuggling war materials to Palestine, in violation of the Truman administration’s embargo on such shipments. Although FBI investigations resulted in several convictions, all but one of those convicted escaped going to prison. [4]
It was out of this underground that the Israeli intelligence network in the United States originated. Operations were supervised by a four-member board, consisting of an American citizen, two Israeli diplomats and an Israeli troubleshooter who traveled frequently between the two countries. The FBI reportedly learned of at least 12 incidents in which American citizens passed classified information to the Israelis, but there were no prosecutions. [5]”

https://merip.org/1986/01/israeli-spies-in-the-us/

“The U.S. government concluded within the past two years that Israel was most likely behind the placement of cellphone surveillance devices that were found near the White House and other sensitive locations around Washington, according to three former senior U.S. officials with knowledge of the matter.

“But unlike most other occasions when flagrant incidents of foreign spying have been discovered on American soil, the Trump administration did not rebuke the Israeli government, and there were no consequences for Israel’s behavior, one of the former officials said.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... es-1491351

So, what’s in it for US?

[Matnum PI]

[jhu72]

Not to be too Kissinger-esque, but how about a little real-politick analysis if we can’t agree on the clear-cut moral angle?

What do we gain from our support versus what do we get?

As we become less dependent (we’d better become)on fossil fuels, the less value Israel represents in Middle East calculus.

Israel’s arch enemy, Iran, is not a particular threat to the US.

Israel is not our ally (there is no alliance). In fact, they gave demonstrated a willingness to conduct serious negative operations against the US.

Economic:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2538128?seq=1

National security breach of unknown proportion:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Longstanding history of operations against the U.S.:

“Prior to Israel’s creation in 1948, a Zionist underground existed in the US for the purpose of smuggling war materials to Palestine, in violation of the Truman administration’s embargo on such shipments. Although FBI investigations resulted in several convictions, all but one of those convicted escaped going to prison. [4]
It was out of this underground that the Israeli intelligence network in the United States originated. Operations were supervised by a four-member board, consisting of an American citizen, two Israeli diplomats and an Israeli troubleshooter who traveled frequently between the two countries. The FBI reportedly learned of at least 12 incidents in which American citizens passed classified information to the Israelis, but there were no prosecutions. [5]”

https://merip.org/1986/01/israeli-spies-in-the-us/

“The U.S. government concluded within the past two years that Israel was most likely behind the placement of cellphone surveillance devices that were found near the White House and other sensitive locations around Washington, according to three former senior U.S. officials with knowledge of the matter.

“But unlike most other occasions when flagrant incidents of foreign spying have been discovered on American soil, the Trump administration did not rebuke the Israeli government, and there were no consequences for Israel’s behavior, one of the former officials said.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... es-1491351

So, what’s in it for US?

... headaches and hate.

Heard Ron Dermer, ex-Israeli ambassador to US. He realizes the support from the US isn't what it once was, even among the Jewish population in the US. He argues their best friends in the US are the evangelical nutbags as they represent something like 30% of the US population. Jews are only 2% or so and they do not stand behind Israel unquestioningly (most are liberal) and have a problem with the treatment of the Palestinian population.

We will just get more of the same out of Biden. He will not stand up to Israel unless he is pushed really hard by the democratic base.

[Brooklyn]

It is beyond time to cut this fascist government loose.

Israel:

Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights

Palestine:

Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights

Guess who JHU72 and libs side with?

Democracy? Free speech? Free press? Freedom of religion? Women's rights?

For who?? Give us some examples of Palestinian women's rights just to prove your point. How about the thousands of Palestinians in prison for standing up for human rights??

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... jerusalem/

Small wonder why Petey supports that repressive government.

[jhu72]

It is beyond time to cut this fascist government loose.

Israel:

Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights

Palestine:

Democracy
Free speech
Free press
Freedom of religion
Women's rights

Guess who JHU72 and libs side with?

Democracy? Free speech? Free press? Freedom of religion? Women's rights?

For who?? Give us some examples of Palestinian women's rights just to prove your point. How about the thousands of Palestinians in prison for standing up for human rights??

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... jerusalem/

Small wonder why Petey supports that repressive government.

Don't think Petey even understands that Palestine is an occupied region, occupied by the Israelis. They are whatever Israel says they are. There is no free choice about this arrangement. Palestinians aren't forcing other peaceful Palestinians out of their homes, Israelis are.

[Farfromgeneva]

I was with you previously about time being up so to speak on us protecting them but I still think it’s important to keep in mind this is a group that’s been hated by almost everyone else at one point or another and driven from their homes repeatedly. Doesn’t excuse the Netenyahus of the world being overly aggressive but I still think it needs to be considered in the context of however much we’ve protected them that their entire existence their has been under constant existential threat for each and every day of those 50 odd years. Just like some good nature folks have lost it with constant poor behavior here and backslid into said persons gutter, it’s understandable that there’s a aggressiveness to Israelis conditioned over their life at risk.

[PizzaSnake]

That pesky water issue again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_s ... _Palestine

“The region of Israel/Palestine is "water-stressed", like many other countries in the region, and macroanalysts consider working out how to share water resources the "single most important problem" for Middle Eastern peoples. One third of all water consumed in Israel was by the 1990s drawn from groundwater that in turn came from the rains over the West Bank, and the struggle over this resource has been described as a zero-sum game. [10] According to Human Rights Watch Israel's confiscation of water violates the Hague Regulations of 1907, which prohibit an occupying power from expropriating the resources of occupied territory for its own benefit.[11] In the wake of 1967, Israel abrogated Palestinian water rights in the West Bank,[12] and with Military Order 92 of August of that year invested all power over water management to the military authority,[13] though under international law Palestinians were entitled to a share.[14] Both of Israel's own acquifers originate in West Bank territory and its northern cities would run dry without them.”

When the aquifer is compromised it us game over. A lot of people are going to die of thirst or will be moving.

“ Due to the Israeli over-extraction, aquifer levels are near ″the point where irreversible damage is done to the aquifer.″ Israeli wells in the West Bank have dried up local Palestinian wells and springs.[38]”

[Brooklyn]

Don't think Petey even understands that Palestine is an occupied region, occupied by the Israelis. They are whatever Israel says they are. There is no free choice about this arrangement. Palestinians aren't forcing other peaceful Palestinians out of their homes, Israelis are.

Would be nice if Petey could at least try to prove his claims just once or twice. But we are likelier to find WMD in Iraq before that ever happens.

[jhu72]

I was with you previously about time being up so to speak on us protecting them but I still think it’s important to keep in mind this is a group that’s been hated by almost everyone else at one point or another and driven from their homes repeatedly. Doesn’t excuse the Netenyahus of the world being overly aggressive but I still think it needs to be considered in the context of however much we’ve protected them that their entire existence their has been under constant existential threat for each and every day of those 50 odd years. Just like some good nature folks have lost it with constant poor behavior here and backslid into said persons gutter, it’s understandable that there’s a aggressiveness to Israelis conditioned over their life at risk.

... even given the so called existential threats from some problematic Arabs, I really question how real that is. I look at it, they seem more than capable of protecting themselves. Fewer and fewer Arab states have any interest in tangling with them. They are certainly not making themselves safer by constantly beating up the Palestinians. The more we allow them to play the game "poor Israel, everybody hates us" the more emboldened they become. They have become more aggressive in the past 4 years thanks to Trump's pandering.

If they feel they need us so much, then we should be able to drive them to a compromise with the Palestinians. They are less inclined to compromise today than anytime since the early 70s. We have never pressed them, to my mind. In the end we always give in to them and their paranoia, to our detriment.

Israel has a problem of demographics. Slightly less than 7 million Jews live in Israel. Gaza and the West Bank contain 4.5 - 5.0 million Arabs -- 2 to 2.5 million in each area. The Arab population is growing faster. Beating up on the Palestinians constantly solves no problem. Israel's current but unspoken solution being driven by the Likud is genocide. Israel has no viable solution, since rejecting the two state solution. Israel's problem is not external - it is internal, and they are making it worse.

[cradleandshoot]

[EDITED]

Glad i am not a jew depending on some of you dumbass mother effing liberals to defend my nation. This cradle and shoot signing off, the brain damaged stupid left has taken over this forum. Have a wonderful time. I'm sticking to the HS lax forum from now on. This forum use to be fun and educational. Like so much else in America you dumb ass liberals have destroyed it.

It was fun while it lasted. It ain't fun or educational anymore.

Good night Mrs Calabash... where ever you are.

[Matnum PI]

Israel's current but unspoken solution being driven by the Likud is genocide. Israel has no viable solution, since rejecting the two state solution. Israel's problem is not external - it is internal, and they are making it worse.

The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians (which is really between Israel, the Palestinians, and Hamas) does include some fault on the part of the Palestinians and particularly Hamas, no? Hamas aren't exactly angels...