Sensible Gun Safety

[ggait]

You're much smarter than that statement, but maybe just uninformed on specifics. Saying Mass Shootings are a one gun problem is like saying the most car fatalities are a Ford F-series problem. It's mostly a popularity thing. An AR-15 is not one gun. It is a platform

Holmes -- you mis-read/mis-understood what I wrote. I did not say mass shootings are "A one-gun" problem. I said mass shootings are one [type of] gun problem. Distinct from other types of gun problems, like gang violence and suicides."

I'm fully aware that an AR-15 is a category/platform of weaponry rather than a particular brand/model. AWBs don't ban AR-15s obviously. They ban weapons that fit a specific detailed definition of highly dangerous weapons -- which you can colloquially call an AW or a MSSA weapon or some other term. Writing that definition is easy and straightforward to do. As an example, the Boulder City ordinance had a definition that clearly covered this shooter's Ruger pistol as well as his MSSA rifle.

We had a national ban on MSSA weapons from 94-04 and it worked fairly well. Given the grandfathering issues, it would have worked even better if it had been maintained longer past 2004.

We're lucky most of these killers are idiots, otherwise they could choose much deadlier options...

It is 100% obvious that mass shootings are facilitated by MSSA weapon platforms. The combination of features makes it the right tool for that particular job. Nobody kills 10 people in a grocery store or school in 75 seconds with a knife, shotgun and a six shooter. GMAFB.

[ggait]

The Ruger and the AR15 from a functional sense are the same damn weapon. They fire the same damn round and the effective ranges of those rounds are almost identical. People that don't know jack about firearms could take a few moments and step outside of their emotions( which I understand) and actually learn about these weapons and how many of them are all the same in how they function. There is no sugar coating the lethality of the 5.56 round. It was designed to kill and allow your average grunt to hump a lot of those rounds.

We know all this.

The Ruger pistol should be banned just like an AR-15 rifle. As I've said multiple times, the Boulder City AWB ordinance banned the Ruger!!!!. Any well drafted law would do that.

Also agree about the ammo. The 5.56 is one of the features that makes the MSSA weapons so problematic.

Notice that the Boulder shooter wounded 10 people. All 10 died. Not one person survived their wounds. My understanding is that the cavitation is what facilitates a 100% lethal outcome like you saw in Boulder. This type of firepower just has no reasonable place in civilian circulation.

I'd be open to going after the ammo instead of, or in addition to, the platform weapon. As I've said multiple times, it is the bundle of features (low recoil, cavitating ammo, large magazine, semi-auto, etc. etc. etc.) that facilitates the mayhem. Defining what is too dangerous to be street legal is just not that hard. We do it for all types of products -- nothing special about doing it for guns. Duh.

[Kismet]

The problems Cradle cites regarding how the laws are written IMHO originate in compromises on how not to effectively ban ALL of these types of weapons/ammo for sale outside of the military.

It would also help to get rid of idiot pols like Ted Cruz who recently declared that owning a gun should be as hassle-free as owning a car. Last time I checked, you need to register a car and need to pass a proficiency exam in order to drive it on a public road or highway.

No wonder we are all in such deep sh*t with morons like this in elected office in charge of passing legislation.

[ardilla secreta]

The problems Cradle cites regarding how the laws are written IMHO originate in compromises on how not to effectively ban ALL of these types of weapons/ammo for sale outside of the military.

It would also help to get rid of idiot pols like Ted Cruz who recently declared that owning a gun should be as hassle-free as owning a car. Last time I checked, you need to register a car and need to pass a proficiency exam in order to drive it on a public road or highway.

No wonder we are all in such deep sh*t with morons like this in elected office in charge of passing legislation.

...and have insurance.

[ggait]

This is what the Boulder City Code says about the Ruger.

Wow. That is soooo complicated. There must be some total firearms geniuses on the Boulder City Council!!

Really just amazing how they were able to figure this out. Given how impossibly difficult (according to posters here) this "definition" problem is.


Assault weapon [includes]...

(b)All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics:(1)Have the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip; or(2)Have a secondary protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.

[Kismet]

This is what the Boulder City Code says about the Ruger.

Wow. That is soooo complicated. There must be some total firearms geniuses on the Boulder City Council!!

Really just amazing how they were able to figure this out. Given how impossibly difficult (according to posters here) this "definition" problem is.


Assault weapon [includes]...

(b)All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics:(1)Have the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip; or(2)Have a secondary protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.

Yep. If the object of the law is to BAN the acquisition and ownership of ALL these military-grade weapons of war, it should not be that difficult to define them. The problems start when you you start compromising on what to ban.

[jhu72]

This is what the Boulder City Code says about the Ruger.

Wow. That is soooo complicated. There must be some total firearms geniuses on the Boulder City Council!!

Really just amazing how they were able to figure this out. Given how impossibly difficult (according to posters here) this "definition" problem is.


Assault weapon [includes]...

(b)All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics:(1)Have the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip; or(2)Have a secondary protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.

Yep. If the object of the law is to BAN the acquisition and ownership of ALL these military-grade weapons of war, it should not be that difficult to define them. The problems start when you you start compromising on what to ban.

+1000

[runrussellrun]

This is what the Boulder City Code says about the Ruger.

Wow. That is soooo complicated. There must be some total firearms geniuses on the Boulder City Council!!

Really just amazing how they were able to figure this out. Given how impossibly difficult (according to posters here) this "definition" problem is.


Assault weapon [includes]...

(b)All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics:(1)Have the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip; or(2)Have a secondary protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.

Yep. If the object of the law is to BAN the acquisition and ownership of ALL these military-grade weapons of war, it should not be that difficult to define them. The problems start when you you start compromising on what to ban.

agree. What is your local police department going to do with all their stuff? How about the FBI, they turning in their issues, too?

as usual, you are picking winners and losers...........and have sat and watched overseas gun sales, killing millions of other humans....across the globe.....you got NO issue with that.

if their is NO threat from armed trumpists, and I will protect and die to protect you from them, I really, really will.......but, would never do so, unarmed. How could any, of this, scenario happen, IF:

H: I didn't have a gun
B: trumpists aren't a threat, after all
X: you check your financials and evah wonder if YOU own stock in killing machine industry companies....

winning nice chunks of coin & cash, now allowing your child to "earn" their spot in the world..

go on, check.

what, suddenly, it is OK that YOU, and your life, benefits from owning the myriad of killing machine industry stock. And , than, tell us, with seriousness, that gun owners, are...ummmm nuts ?

insantiy. lack principles. hypocrites.

stop killing people, overseas, than we can talk gun control, at home. national intersts......suddenly, context matters.......get real.

[MDlaxfan76]

This is what the Boulder City Code says about the Ruger.

Wow. That is soooo complicated. There must be some total firearms geniuses on the Boulder City Council!!

Really just amazing how they were able to figure this out. Given how impossibly difficult (according to posters here) this "definition" problem is.


Assault weapon [includes]...

(b)All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics:(1)Have the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip; or(2)Have a secondary protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.

Yep. If the object of the law is to BAN the acquisition and ownership of ALL these military-grade weapons of war, it should not be that difficult to define them. The problems start when you you start compromising on what to ban.

We really should not need to have such weapons in our homes or businesses.

I think the way to address the 'militia' aspect is that we have a National Guard, so have in effect a standing militia (the clearly stated purpose of the 2nd Amendment), however going further to address the desire of citizens to practice and/or compete for sport with such weapons, we could enable usage at regulated, licensed gun ranges.

For those who complain that criminals have such weapons, I'm all for stiff fines or in egregious cases incarceration for illegal possession, even higher sentences for illegal usage of such weapons, higher still for usage in another criminal act. It'll take time to clean them up (searches only in cases with warrants related to other criminal activity), but with time the #'s will dramatically drop, reducing easy availability to near nil. I'm ok with police forces etc having these weapons in SWAT teams etc until we no longer have a concern about the weapons in the general public...that'll take time.

For other guns, I'm good with universal background checks, required licensure, etc. If that means I need to be sure that my shotguns, including those inherited from my dad, are registered and that I need to pass a gun safety test etc, ok with me. That's pretty much the reality for any new hunters and gun purchases as it is.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/26/us/atlan ... index.html

Dude was just exercising his second amendment right. Hillary wants to take away your guns.....snitches get stitches.

[runrussellrun]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/26/us/atlan ... index.html

Dude was just exercising his second amendment right. Hillary wants to take away your guns.....snitches get stitches.

hypocrites will know HELL

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bloomb ... ity-campus

[runrussellrun]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/26/us/atlan ... index.html

Dude was just exercising his second amendment right. Hillary wants to take away your guns.....snitches get stitches.

does your life matter more, than mine" ?

How did Bloomberg answer this question? you tell us, tld, how.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/03/vo ... ty-detail/



i don't care.......did the Terps make the hypocritical hoops madness ?

[holmes435]

You're much smarter than that statement, but maybe just uninformed on specifics. Saying Mass Shootings are a one gun problem is like saying the most car fatalities are a Ford F-series problem. It's mostly a popularity thing. An AR-15 is not one gun. It is a platform

Holmes -- you mis-read/mis-understood what I wrote. I did not say mass shootings are "A one-gun" problem. I said mass shootings are one [type of] gun problem. Distinct from other types of gun problems, like gang violence and suicides."

I'm fully aware that an AR-15 is a category/platform of weaponry rather than a particular brand/model. AWBs don't ban AR-15s obviously. They ban weapons that fit a specific detailed definition of highly dangerous weapons -- which you can colloquially call an AW or a MSSA weapon or some other term. Writing that definition is easy and straightforward to do. As an example, the Boulder City ordinance had a definition that clearly covered this shooter's Ruger pistol as well as his MSSA rifle.

We had a national ban on MSSA weapons from 94-04 and it worked fairly well. Given the grandfathering issues, it would have worked even better if it had been maintained longer past 2004.

We're lucky most of these killers are idiots, otherwise they could choose much deadlier options...

It is 100% obvious that mass shootings are facilitated by MSSA weapon platforms. The combination of features makes it the right tool for that particular job. Nobody kills 10 people in a grocery store or school in 75 seconds with a knife, shotgun and a six shooter. GMAFB.

"Assault weapons" don't automatically make mass shootings more deadly. Having a detachable magazine in the grip vs stock, or adding a second grip or a folding stock doesn't make the gun more deadly. .223/5.56 rounds aren't some magical super lethal round. Tactics, practice, total rounds shot, and what type of bullet (type, not caliber) are much more important than the gun itself and what's on it.

There's little data surrounding the old Assault Weapons Ban and mass shootings simply because there were so many fewer mass shooting prior to the 24hr news cycle and social media. Again, you had a whacko with a cheap .22 pistol and a 9mm pistol kill 33 kids. No assault weapon needed.

Here's what's gonna happen if you get your assault weapons ban. You're gonna pat yourselves on the back, then a couple years down the road you're gonna wonder why mass shootings are still happening, why people are dying at the same rates or higher in mass shootings, why overall gun deaths aren't going down, and to top it off, Republicans are gonna be back in charge. You may see fewer assault weapons involved in those mass shootings though.

You're wasting political capital on something that isn't going to work and doesn't begin to address the root problems. You're not even talking about the much, much bigger gun problem, your average pistol.

Would I be happy living in places like Europe or New Zealand where virtually no one has guns and the ones they do have are for skeet shooting, hunting or target shooting at a gun club? Sounds great, sign me up! But in the meantime I'm trying to live in the reality of the US where the right sticks their fingers in their ears and goes "na na na" surrounding guns while the left pushes bad, ineffective policies that bite them in the rear at the polls.

[MDlaxfan76]

You're much smarter than that statement, but maybe just uninformed on specifics. Saying Mass Shootings are a one gun problem is like saying the most car fatalities are a Ford F-series problem. It's mostly a popularity thing. An AR-15 is not one gun. It is a platform

Holmes -- you mis-read/mis-understood what I wrote. I did not say mass shootings are "A one-gun" problem. I said mass shootings are one [type of] gun problem. Distinct from other types of gun problems, like gang violence and suicides."

I'm fully aware that an AR-15 is a category/platform of weaponry rather than a particular brand/model. AWBs don't ban AR-15s obviously. They ban weapons that fit a specific detailed definition of highly dangerous weapons -- which you can colloquially call an AW or a MSSA weapon or some other term. Writing that definition is easy and straightforward to do. As an example, the Boulder City ordinance had a definition that clearly covered this shooter's Ruger pistol as well as his MSSA rifle.

We had a national ban on MSSA weapons from 94-04 and it worked fairly well. Given the grandfathering issues, it would have worked even better if it had been maintained longer past 2004.

We're lucky most of these killers are idiots, otherwise they could choose much deadlier options...

It is 100% obvious that mass shootings are facilitated by MSSA weapon platforms. The combination of features makes it the right tool for that particular job. Nobody kills 10 people in a grocery store or school in 75 seconds with a knife, shotgun and a six shooter. GMAFB.

"Assault weapons" don't automatically make mass shootings more deadly. Having a detachable magazine in the grip vs stock, or adding a second grip or a folding stock doesn't make the gun more deadly. .223/5.56 rounds aren't some magical super lethal round. Tactics, practice, total rounds shot, and what type of bullet (type, not caliber) are much more important than the gun itself and what's on it.

There's little data surrounding the old Assault Weapons Ban and mass shootings simply because there were so many fewer mass shooting prior to the 24hr news cycle and social media. Again, you had a whacko with a cheap .22 pistol and a 9mm pistol kill 33 kids. No assault weapon needed.

Here's what's gonna happen if you get your assault weapons ban. You're gonna pat yourselves on the back, then a couple years down the road you're gonna wonder why mass shootings are still happening, why people are dying at the same rates or higher in mass shootings, why overall gun deaths aren't going down, and to top it off, Republicans are gonna be back in charge. You may see fewer assault weapons involved in those mass shootings though.

You're wasting political capital on something that isn't going to work and doesn't begin to address the root problems. You're not even talking about the much, much bigger gun problem, your average pistol.

Would I be happy living in places like Europe or New Zealand where virtually no one has guns and the ones they do have are for skeet shooting, hunting or target shooting at a gun club? Sounds great, sign me up! But in the meantime I'm trying to live in the reality of the US where the right sticks their fingers in their ears and goes "na na na" surrounding guns while the left pushes bad, ineffective policies that bite them in the rear at the polls.

Holmes, you describe this as a Catch-22 problem, I think.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

What would you consider to be a more effective set of policies to address the various issues with gun prevalence in America? (I take it that you agree that gun prevalence is an actual problem, given your 'sign me up').

How do we move the ball on this effectively?
Or are we doomed to ever worsening cycles?

[runrussellrun]

https://www.fool.com/investing/stock-ma ... se-stocks/


it's a short list, but a deadly one, if you know what I mean.......


you own killing machine stock.......and want to take our guns, or vague "enhanced this...or strictor that..."

all while not caring about your own neighbors, well being. mental well being.........


sure.....let's continue the lock downs......what could go wrong.

[holmes435]

Holmes, you describe this as a Catch-22 problem, I think.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

What would you consider to be a more effective set of policies to address the various issues with gun prevalence in America? (I take it that you agree that gun prevalence is an actual problem, given your 'sign me up').

How do we move the ball on this effectively?
Or are we doomed to ever worsening cycles?

Yeah, we've been painted into a corner. There are lots of solutions, but not many that can pass normally, let alone in the current divisive environment, and I'm not sure what would even hold up in court. Maybe putting a tax stamp and extra background check on all semi-auto guns like we do with full auto?

The only way to get the ball rolling on fewer guns in America is to have a majority liberal SCOTUS. That ship has likely sailed for a couple of decades, and with the precedent of DC vs. Heller it's even more of an uphill battle.

In light of the 2nd Amendment and one side's intransigence on anything at all gun related, the only realistic fight is to try to reduce overall violence and suicide. Every time a mass shooting happens, the left says "it's a gun issue" and the right says it's a "mental health issue." Ok, so then let's get these people health care! This should be a time for the left and center to rally around Medicare for All or something similar to call out the right.

Economic insecurity is another huge factor. A stronger working class means less violence and suicide. Worrying less about medical bills means less violence and suicide. Better wages and less income inequality means less violence and suicide. Universal healthcare actually feeds into this from a business standpoint as well. It removes huge burden from smaller and medium sized businesses - providing health insurance as a benefit. This allows for more money to be spent throughout the business, including on wages.

Not sure what we can do about the media and social media factor in all of this, but it's becoming a huge crisis, especially with youth and younger adults. They feel hopelessness, especially being some of the first generations in a long time to be worse off than their parents. Tack on the echo chambers and bubbles of social media, the constant hum of cable news reporting bad news all day and it's a recipe for disaster.

It's also very frustrating that we hear no solutions from the right.

[old salt]

Most people don't consider a Ruger pistol to be an assault weapon & still no evidence the Atlanta shootings were anti-Asian hate crime.

Tough messaging week for the Biden Admin, Dems & their media. Ready, fire aim. Don't let any crisis go to waste.

[cradleandshoot]

This is what the Boulder City Code says about the Ruger.

Wow. That is soooo complicated. There must be some total firearms geniuses on the Boulder City Council!!

Really just amazing how they were able to figure this out. Given how impossibly difficult (according to posters here) this "definition" problem is.


Assault weapon [includes]...

(b)All semi-automatic center-fire pistols that have any of the following characteristics:(1)Have the capacity to accept a magazine other than in the pistol grip; or(2)Have a secondary protruding grip or other device to allow the weapon to be stabilized with the non-trigger hand.

So now go figure. The Ruger mini 14, after all of the hulabaloo in NYS and the passing of the SAFE, is the one 5.56 rifle they don't have a problem with. It has been hinted at here and the actual solution, which pretty much circumvents any 2nd amendment issues involves putting strict regulations on the purchase of ammo. The seasoned gun owners figured out a way around that years ago. They police up their brass reload their own ammo. To those not so dedicated, how about purchases limited to 50 rounds every 6 month with a back ground check needed for every purchase. You can have all the assault rifles you want. If you don't have unlimited access to ammo, they don't do you much good do they?

[MDlaxfan76]

Holmes, you describe this as a Catch-22 problem, I think.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

What would you consider to be a more effective set of policies to address the various issues with gun prevalence in America? (I take it that you agree that gun prevalence is an actual problem, given your 'sign me up').

How do we move the ball on this effectively?
Or are we doomed to ever worsening cycles?

Yeah, we've been painted into a corner. There are lots of solutions, but not many that can pass normally, let alone in the current divisive environment, and I'm not sure what would even hold up in court. Maybe putting a tax stamp and extra background check on all semi-auto guns like we do with full auto?

The only way to get the ball rolling on fewer guns in America is to have a majority liberal SCOTUS. That ship has likely sailed for a couple of decades, and with the precedent of DC vs. Heller it's even more of an uphill battle.

In light of the 2nd Amendment and one side's intransigence on anything at all gun related, the only realistic fight is to try to reduce overall violence and suicide. Every time a mass shooting happens, the left says "it's a gun issue" and the right says it's a "mental health issue." Ok, so then let's get these people health care! This should be a time for the left and center to rally around Medicare for All or something similar to call out the right.

Economic insecurity is another huge factor. A stronger working class means less violence and suicide. Worrying less about medical bills means less violence and suicide. Better wages and less income inequality means less violence and suicide. Universal healthcare actually feeds into this from a business standpoint as well. It removes huge burden from smaller and medium sized businesses - providing health insurance as a benefit. This allows for more money to be spent throughout the business, including on wages.

Not sure what we can do about the media and social media factor in all of this, but it's becoming a huge crisis, especially with youth and younger adults. They feel hopelessness, especially being some of the first generations in a long time to be worse off than their parents. Tack on the echo chambers and bubbles of social media, the constant hum of cable news reporting bad news all day and it's a recipe for disaster.

It's also very frustrating that we hear no solutions from the right.

Fair enough. I agree that there's all sorts of complexity, no one move is a panacea, and perhaps you're right that there should be little hope of serious progress.

And I'd agree that making progress on some of the much broader societal issues might have the most impact...if they can happen.

But I do think that when particular policies have 70+% approval, there's at least a solid chance in moving the ball, even if there's intransigence by one side of the political elite. But again, any such moves should not be considered complete solutions (I think this is your most fundamental point). which may be frustrating, but I don't think it's a reason not to take those steps.

cradle, I agree that some controls, taxes, licenses etc related to the ammo might be helpful.

[a fan]

Most people don't consider a Ruger pistol to be an assault weapon & still no evidence the Atlanta shootings were anti-Asian hate crime.

Tough messaging week for the Biden Admin, Dems & their media. Ready, fire aim. Don't let any crisis go to waste.

Says the guy who told us that Americans and the media shouldn't take what Trump says literally. Sure sounds to me like you have Biden Derangement Syndrome.....come on man. You can't complain about what our President says or does! That's so pre-Trump, OS. Get with it.

What's the problem with Biden's messaging, OS? Are his lies not big enough to suit your Republican tastes? Yeah, you're right....he needs to go big or go home.

We get it: you would have been happier if Biden would have told us that Mexico would pay for American Gun Control. Statements like that make perfect sense to you.