New Face Off Rules

[dawn patrol]

Small sample to date but what's your opinion on the new face off rules? My only complaint is a carry
over from the old rules, on a before the whistle illegal procedure , I want a method for the official to relay the nature of the violation i.e. false start, leaning, alignment.

[nyjay]

I, for one, can't figure out the f/o violations or fouls at all. I hear the whistle, but usually have no idea whatsoever which way the ref is going to point. I think I used to understand the rules, but I can't understand what's happening any more. It's like watching women's lacrosse for me.

[DMac]

Across the board the new (not really, they've always been in the rule book, just not enforced) rules is a mission accomplished, IMO. Ball isn't being clamped to the ground, not being picked up like using tongs, no wrestling matches, and the wings are back in the game. I've been confused on a few calls too but we'll get it.

[molo]

So far, so good. It seems to have become more of a team effort, and we have been spared the pseudo-Sumo matches between players who do nothing but face-off. OSU may have started a new trend with Tereshenko. Imagine having your best athletes face-off!

[spartanslynx]

The ball is out faster and I like it. But players should and will be better at countering.

[RumorMill]

Across the board the new (not really, they've always been in the rule book, just not enforced) rules is a mission accomplished, IMO. Ball isn't being clamped to the ground, not being picked up like using tongs, no wrestling matches, and the wings are back in the game. I've been confused on a few calls too but we'll get it.

Being a critic of the change, I have to admit, I don't mind it. But trust me, these face off specialists are still picking the ball up with the back of their heads, etc. Have you watched the UNC faceoff unit? Tucci and Tyeryar have been the most dominant. They are "pinching and popping" to themselves, and to their wings. We'll see what Ohio does when Inacio is back, but Terefenko definitely did a good job. So far the "best" tie ups I've seen were in the Syracuse vs Army game yesterday. A couple faceoffs they were tied up for a couple seconds. My guess is you'll see more tie ups as these guys get more comfortable with the technique and more game time experience. The wings were never out of the faceoff game. Even during the moto grip days, wings played a huge part in the faceoff. The only time they didn't is if they weren't being coached properly or your FO specialist was so dominant and quick he was out before the wings could make it in... which would contradict anyone's complaint about the sumo match. The biggest difference is the refs are calling the "withholding" violation much tighter and quicker. To your point above I agree, this was always there and refs just slowly migrated away from calling it consistently.

[DMac]

Yup, saw it in the Cuse game and I realize there's still pinching and popping going on, but but there's a whole lot more raking and getting the ball out into play going on than there has been for years and that's the way a faceoff should go. You can see that these guys are hesitant to keep the head of their stick on top of the ball with it clamped to the ground for very long as they know they're going to get called for it. No doubt these guys will perfect/improve/tweak their methods but as long as the refs don't let them turn it into a wrestling match I'm okay with it all. My only complaint with faceoffs has ever been clamping the ball and keeping in out of play. In that respect the wings were not nearly as involved in the faceoff as what we've seen so far this year.

[HopFan16]

Is it just me or have wings been less involved under the new rules? The ball is out so fast that it often doesn't even give the wings a chance to get into the scrum. At least when there's a tie-up, it gives wings some time to get involved in the play once the ball pops free. But a lot of what I've seen is just the two faceoff guys jockeying to pick up the loose ball and often it's in one of their sticks before the wings are able to disrupt things much.

Once guys learn how to counter better and the draw itself more consistently lasts another second or two, that should change things. But for now I haven't seen many true wing battles but maybe I'm watching the wrong games.

[wgdsr]

Across the board the new (not really, they've always been in the rule book, just not enforced) rules is a mission accomplished, IMO. Ball isn't being clamped to the ground, not being picked up like using tongs, no wrestling matches, and the wings are back in the game. I've been confused on a few calls too but we'll get it.

Being a critic of the change, I have to admit, I don't mind it. But trust me, these face off specialists are still picking the ball up with the back of their heads, etc. Have you watched the UNC faceoff unit? Tucci and Tyeryar have been the most dominant. They are "pinching and popping" to themselves, and to their wings. We'll see what Ohio does when Inacio is back, but Terefenko definitely did a good job. So far the "best" tie ups I've seen were in the Syracuse vs Army game yesterday. A couple faceoffs they were tied up for a couple seconds. My guess is you'll see more tie ups as these guys get more comfortable with the technique and more game time experience. The wings were never out of the faceoff game. Even during the moto grip days, wings played a huge part in the faceoff. The only time they didn't is if they weren't being coached properly or your FO specialist was so dominant and quick he was out before the wings could make it in... which would contradict anyone's complaint about the sumo match. The biggest difference is the refs are calling the "withholding" violation much tighter and quicker. To your point above I agree, this was always there and refs just slowly migrated away from calling it consistently.

they didn't slowly migrate away from it. imo. they'd only call it if you were laying on the ball. can't count how many discussions tried to have on and off field with refs to square their decisions with the rules.
so many different answers it was insane. the best was that was how college did it. and they "ref college".

[cantrelax]

Believe it is better thus far. The former scrums were tedious, and minimized good wing pay and strategy. Syracuse kid seemed quite skilled in the new technique and that helped move the game along. Good points about the existing rules in prior years- if enforced consistently would have made a difference.

Goal mouth rule needs some practice now for consistency as well. Separate thread perhaps?

[10 10 2]

There should be a "Stop changing the rules every two years" option.

[Henpecked]

I agree that constant rule changes are a little tough to take. However, if you consider how much better games are with a shot clock versus the arbitrary delay clock from a couple years ago, you can almost forgive the overreach on rule changes.

Let's leave the faceoff alone for the next 20 years now. Seems like it is working.

[spartanslynx]

Is it just me or have wings been less involved under the new rules? The ball is out so fast that it often doesn't even give the wings a chance to get into the scrum. At least when there's a tie-up, it gives wings some time to get involved in the play once the ball pops free. But a lot of what I've seen is just the two faceoff guys jockeying to pick up the loose ball and often it's in one of their sticks before the wings are able to disrupt things much.

Once guys learn how to counter better and the draw itself more consistently lasts another second or two, that should change things. But for now I haven't seen many true wing battles but maybe I'm watching the wrong games.

SNG was the correct first step and closer wings is the next

[DMac]

Why do you need closer wings? Seems to be working just fine to me.

[Surfs_Up]

I miss the MOTO. The fast breaks and scores off of the FO were an electric part of the game and could change the game. I agree the circle dance sucked. But, they could have put a count down in there to minimize it. Now its just so scrummy, and the ball is going all over the place. Fun for the wings I guess.

[jhu06]

Why do you need closer wings? Seems to be working just fine to me.

be interesting if the ncaa gets flexible next fall and allows more practice time scrimmages and that kind of a thing. Players and teams have lost an awful lot of time to work on stuff like this and the rosters are big enough where they are not going to run out of players. In a normal season things like this you'd have mid week games now to get more tape and work on new rules. For the ivies especially if I was a player or coach I'd be asking for more time and games next year because there's a lot of catchup to do.

[Can Opener]

Well, I guess we know what TD thinks of the new rules now. 14 for 14 against a very competent FO specialist from PC yesterday. While many folks here didn't like the old scrums, the coaches didn't really care about that. They disliked the fact that one injury or one recruit who doesn't develop as planned can severely impact your chances. On that score, I don't think the rules changes have achieved their goal. In 2019 there were 18 guys who won face-offs at .600 or better. So far this year there are 21 guys, not counting TD, who doesn't have enough reps yet.

There is an even greater correlation this season between a top 10 team ranking and a very successful FO win rate. In that sense, the move probably backfired with the coaches who complained about the old rule and sought more parity. With Rutgers and Syracuse about to drop in the rankings, this correlation will only look more stark. Here are the current stats with G-town thrown in since they are likely to be top 10 this week:
1. UNC - .587
2. Duke - .672
3. Maryland - .476
4. Syracuse - .555
5. Rutgers - .427
6. Notre Dame - .735
7. Denver - .650
8. Army - .545
9. Virginia - .649
10. Lehigh - .750
11. Georgetown - .651

For me the takeaway is that the FO specialists have once again proven that they are some of the most talented athletes on the field. These guys work their butts off at a difficult, physical position. The best guys have adapted quickly and continue to succeed. Unless we want to eliminate FOs altogether -- a move that has proven disastrous in the past -- let's stop fooling with the rules every year or two.

Link to this year's stats here:
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/lacrosse-men ... vidual/410

Link to the 2019 stats here:
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/ran ... rtCode=MLA
NOTE: The NCAA archives site is not very user friendly.

[xxxxxxx]

They will never admit it but one of the main goals was to stop dominant face off specialists, obviously that hasn’t worked out. I was very much against it but it’s fine.

Is anyone else hearing about more wrist issues? I’m told the wrist bent back and jamming it into a solid object is taking a toll.

[DMac]

So you're saying that all the people involved in this decision never realized that there will always be FOGOs that rise above the rest and are just better at it than pretty much everyone else? How many years ago was clamp AND RAKE written in the rule book? Long before a Baptise or TD, no?

[ToastDunk]

Okay, as the father of two former collegiate faceoff specialists I'm ready to put in my 2 cents.

So, what's the objective of the rules committee with all the changes? Seems like every two years they're tinkering with the faceoff position. We're told it's about speeding up the game -- but who believes that? Think of all the college games played on a typical weekend, and all the faceoffs that occur; does anyone really believe the average faceoff takes more than a couple of seconds? It's the odd faceoff that takes seven seconds let alone 30. No, the rules committee (and plenty of coaches) want to neuter the position, if not eliminate it altogether. A position (or worse yet a player) having the potential to impact a game needed to be "fixed." Changes had to be made.

We love a dominant attackman, pole, or middie. And a goalie "standing on his head"? fuggedaboutit!

A dominant FOGO? We gotta fix that.

If it truly were about speeding up the game they'd eliminate the defensive middies (tell me substitutions upon possession take less time than the average faceoff). The rules committee would also mandate a more shallow pocket. Gone would be the days of running through a double-team with the ball snug and protected in a deep pocket -- let's knock that ball to the ground and fight for it.

Guys who dominate the position do so because they train harder, have quicker reaction times, and have command of more moves and counter moves than their opponent. It's not an easy position. They typically take a pretty good beating in the course of a game. AND they have to adapt to new rules every two years, rules who's purpose is to make them less effective at the X. But you see, they're athletes. They train harder and adapt to the new set of arcane rules thrown in their path.

Some random thoughts:

• A good faceoff specialist will use his wingmen...when he needs/wants to. Is that a problem? Are wingmen feeling left out?

• There is technique to the "pinch & pop," the ball doesn't simply get "stuck" in the backside of the head (that would be a violation). This and so many more misconceptions of what it takes to dominate at the X.

• Back before there was MOTO grip, there were dominant faceoff guys using SNG. Again, what was the objective of the latest rule changes?

• Having a dominant FOGO does NOT guarantee the win. It's a team sport relying on more than one player. We've all seen plenty of games that prove this point.

• Is it an advantage to have a "lights out" goalie? Can that goalie affect the outcome of a game? So...

• This last point even sounds ridiculous to me as I type it, but here it goes. I think the rule changes are driven by coaches who don't want to take up 3-4 "valuable" roster spots with specialists. Let's turn the position into a 50/50 ground ball scrum that ANY player can fight for (so we can bring in more guys for the practice squad).