Our Undeclared Wars

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foreverlax
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Our Undeclared Wars

Post by foreverlax »

Judge Andrew Napolitano: Have we forgotten that only Congress can declare war?

The Supreme Court has ruled that the separation of powers is integral to the Constitution not to preserve the prerogatives of each branch of government but to divide governmental powers among the branches so as to keep power diffused – and thereby limited and protective of personal freedom.

Thus, even if one branch of government consented to ceding an essential power to another branch, such a giveaway would be unconstitutional, the Supreme Court has ruled, because the core functions of each branch of the federal government may not be delegated away to either of the other two without violating the separation of powers.

Not long ago, on the basis of evidence so flimsy that his own secretary of defense rejected it – and without any legal or constitutional authority – President Donald Trump dispatched 110 missiles to bomb certain military and civilian targets in Syria, where the president argued the Syrian government manufactured, stored or used chemical weapons.

Trump did not seek a congressional declaration of war, nor did he comply with the U.N. Charter, a treaty to which both the U.S. And Syria are signatories. Though Trump did not articulate any statutory basis for his use of the military, his predecessors often cited as legal support for their unconstitutional uses of military force two statutes — one enacted in 2001 and the other in 2002, each known as the authorization for use of military force, or AUMF.

The AUMFs refer to either the Taliban or Al Qaeda or their affiliated forces in Afghanistan or Iraq as targets or to pursuing those who caused the attacks in America on 9/11 or those who harbor weapons of mass destruction.

Can the president legally use military force to attack a foreign land without a serious threat or legal obligation or a declaration of war from Congress?
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holmes435
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by holmes435 »

Congress doesn't want any of that that on their resume come voting day. Like tariffs, they'd rather lay it at the feet of the president. It's amazing how much power they've willingly given up.
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by ChairmanOfTheBoard »

foreverlax wrote:Judge Andrew Napolitano: Have we forgotten that only Congress can declare war?

The Supreme Court has ruled that the separation of powers is integral to the Constitution not to preserve the prerogatives of each branch of government but to divide governmental powers among the branches so as to keep power diffused – and thereby limited and protective of personal freedom.

Thus, even if one branch of government consented to ceding an essential power to another branch, such a giveaway would be unconstitutional, the Supreme Court has ruled, because the core functions of each branch of the federal government may not be delegated away to either of the other two without violating the separation of powers.

Not long ago, on the basis of evidence so flimsy that his own secretary of defense rejected it – and without any legal or constitutional authority – President Donald Trump dispatched 110 missiles to bomb certain military and civilian targets in Syria, where the president argued the Syrian government manufactured, stored or used chemical weapons.

Trump did not seek a congressional declaration of war, nor did he comply with the U.N. Charter, a treaty to which both the U.S. And Syria are signatories. Though Trump did not articulate any statutory basis for his use of the military, his predecessors often cited as legal support for their unconstitutional uses of military force two statutes — one enacted in 2001 and the other in 2002, each known as the authorization for use of military force, or AUMF.

The AUMFs refer to either the Taliban or Al Qaeda or their affiliated forces in Afghanistan or Iraq as targets or to pursuing those who caused the attacks in America on 9/11 or those who harbor weapons of mass destruction.

Can the president legally use military force to attack a foreign land without a serious threat or legal obligation or a declaration of war from Congress?
GOOD thread, forever. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/chapter-33

has anyone kept track on where our "kinetics" are still going on in the east? i've lost track.
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old salt
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

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has anyone kept track on where our "kinetics" are still going on in the east? i've lost track.
Not a lot of kinetics going on right now.

Afghanistan -- trainers, embedded advisors & on call local USAF air support, for Afghan Security Forces. Main threat to US forces is IED's & turncoat ASF.

Syria/Iraq -- embedded trainers, advisers, intel gatherers, Spec Forces teams & on call USAF air support from bases in Turkey, Kuwait, UAE &/or Qatar.

Yemen, Somalia & in several African nations, Spec Forces teams & intel gatherers, working with host nation forces.

No carrier strike group in the mid east for several mos. Have ceased in-flight refueling of Saudi air strkes in Yemen. Still providing intel & targeting.
wahoomurf
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by wahoomurf »

Ah YEMEN. :D The outgoing Speaker's valedictory to the children of YEMEN."Today I brought a FARM BILL to the U.S.House of Representatives.Attached was a resolution to keep funding the Saudis the ensure the exterminations will continue apace. Sursum Corda.You YEMENIS only have one more year to starve."

All you fine,ever shrinking folks in YEMEN have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.The devout Mr. Ryan will be leaving for Wisconsin to prepare for Midnight Mass.He's going to lead his family down the center aisle to receive communion.He's following the magisterium of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
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HooDat
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by HooDat »

come on Murph - general dynamics has to sell that stuff to somebody. And it ain't going to blow itself up!
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
foreverlax
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by foreverlax »

HooDat wrote:come on Murph - general dynamics has to sell that stuff to somebody. And it ain't going to blow itself up!
Hoo that got a fully blown belly laugh!! Excellent!
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by ChairmanOfTheBoard »

old salt wrote:
has anyone kept track on where our "kinetics" are still going on in the east? i've lost track.
Not a lot of kinetics going on right now.

Afghanistan -- trainers, embedded advisors & on call local USAF air support, for Afghan Security Forces. Main threat to US forces is IED's & turncoat ASF.

Syria/Iraq -- embedded trainers, advisers, intel gatherers, Spec Forces teams & on call USAF air support from bases in Turkey, Kuwait, UAE &/or Qatar.

Yemen, Somalia & in several African nations, Spec Forces teams & intel gatherers, working with host nation forces.

No carrier strike group in the mid east for several mos. Have ceased in-flight refueling of Saudi air strkes in Yemen. Still providing intel & targeting.

thanks salty- that's the list i remember, but those details are helpful.

if you trust wiki, it says this:
On October 6, 2015, Trump stated that the United States "made a terrible mistake getting involved [in Afghanistan] in the first place."[74] When asked again about Afghanistan on October 20, 2015, Trump reversed his position, claiming to have never characterized U.S. entry into Afghanistan as a mistake.[74] Trump stated that the War in Afghanistan was necessary and that he supported keeping a limited number of troops there.[74]
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old salt
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

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wahoomurf wrote:Ah YEMEN. :D The outgoing Speaker's valedictory to the children of YEMEN."Today I brought a FARM BILL to the U.S.House of Representatives.Attached was a resolution to keep funding the Saudis the ensure the exterminations will continue apace. Sursum Corda.You YEMENIS only have one more year to starve."

All you fine,ever shrinking folks in YEMEN have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.The devout Mr. Ryan will be leaving for Wisconsin to prepare for Midnight Mass.He's going to lead his family down the center aisle to receive communion.He's following the magisterium of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
Good news murf -- a cease fire in the port city through which humanitarian aid flows.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/middleea ... index.html
This one might hold. A chance for MbS to begin making amends.
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by wahoomurf »

old salt wrote:
wahoomurf wrote:Ah YEMEN. :D The outgoing Speaker's valedictory to the children of YEMEN."Today I brought a FARM BILL to the U.S.House of Representatives.Attached was a resolution to keep funding the Saudis the ensure the exterminations will continue apace. Sursum Corda.You YEMENIS only have one more year to starve."

All you fine,ever shrinking folks in YEMEN have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.The devout Mr. Ryan will be leaving for Wisconsin to prepare for Midnight Mass.He's going to lead his family down the center aisle to receive communion.He's following the magisterium of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
Good news murf -- a cease fire in the port city through which humanitarian aid flows.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/middleea ... index.html

This one might hold. A chance for MbS to begin making amends.
Might Hold?MBS has done nothing wrong.Ergo,he has no AMENDS,TO MAKE.(weird syntax :| ). And,like his fellow members of the Veracity Quartet, MBS is a man of honor ( he was getting a pedicure when Khashoggi tripped on that carpet in the foyer). He is proud to be a charter member of that estimable organization.As such his word is his bond.

EG.Lil' Kim promised to shut down NK's nuclear program.DONE! The COOO's personal attorney/butt boy/fixer,Mikey Cohen for 10 years was, according,to Mikey's boss, solely involved in "minor matters".TRUE! LORD Putin never ordered the poisoning of any one,any time,any where.OF COURSE!

While I do hope and pray the people of YEMEN get surcease from the horrors they've endured,I am a tad skeptical that's gonna happen. :roll:
foreverlax
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by foreverlax »

wahoomurf wrote:
old salt wrote:
wahoomurf wrote:Ah YEMEN. :D The outgoing Speaker's valedictory to the children of YEMEN."Today I brought a FARM BILL to the U.S.House of Representatives.Attached was a resolution to keep funding the Saudis the ensure the exterminations will continue apace. Sursum Corda.You YEMENIS only have one more year to starve."

All you fine,ever shrinking folks in YEMEN have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.The devout Mr. Ryan will be leaving for Wisconsin to prepare for Midnight Mass.He's going to lead his family down the center aisle to receive communion.He's following the magisterium of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
Good news murf -- a cease fire in the port city through which humanitarian aid flows.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/middleea ... index.html

This one might hold. A chance for MbS to begin making amends.
Might Hold?MBS has done nothing wrong.Ergo,he has no AMENDS,TO MAKE.(weird syntax :| ). And,like his fellow members of the Veracity Quartet, MBS is a man of honor ( he was getting a pedicure when Khashoggi tripped on that carpet in the foyer). He is proud to be a charter member of that estimable organization.As such his word is his bond.

EG.Lil' Kim promised to shut down NK's nuclear program.DONE! The COOO's personal attorney/butt boy/fixer,Mikey Cohen for 10 years was, according,to Mikey's boss, solely involved in "minor matters".TRUE! LORD Putin never ordered the poisoning of any one,any time,any where.OF COURSE!

While I do hope and pray the people of YEMEN get surcease from the horrors they've endured,I am a tad skeptical that's gonna happen. :roll:
Things are going swimmingly
Many people have asked how we are doing in our negotiations with North Korea - I always reply by saying we are in no hurry, there is wonderful potential for great economic success for that country........Kim Jong Un sees it better than anyone and will fully take advantage of it for his people. We are doing just fine!
DJT
wahoomurf
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by wahoomurf »

foreverlax wrote:
wahoomurf wrote:
old salt wrote:
wahoomurf wrote:Ah YEMEN. :D The outgoing Speaker's valedictory to the children of YEMEN."Today I brought a FARM BILL to the U.S.House of Representatives.Attached was a resolution to keep funding the Saudis the ensure the exterminations will continue apace. Sursum Corda.You YEMENIS only have one more year to starve."

All you fine,ever shrinking folks in YEMEN have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.The devout Mr. Ryan will be leaving for Wisconsin to prepare for Midnight Mass.He's going to lead his family down the center aisle to receive communion.He's following the magisterium of the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
Good news murf -- a cease fire in the port city through which humanitarian aid flows.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/middleea ... index.html

This one might hold. A chance for MbS to begin making amends.
Might Hold?MBS has done nothing wrong.Ergo,he has no AMENDS,TO MAKE.(weird syntax :| ). And,like his fellow members of the Veracity Quartet, MBS is a man of honor ( he was getting a pedicure when Khashoggi tripped on that carpet in the foyer). He is proud to be a charter member of that estimable organization.As such his word is his bond.

EG.Lil' Kim promised to shut down NK's nuclear program.DONE! The COOO's personal attorney/butt boy/fixer,Mikey Cohen for 10 years was, according,to Mikey's boss, solely involved in "minor matters".TRUE! LORD Putin never ordered the poisoning of any one,any time,any where.OF COURSE!

While I do hope and pray the people of YEMEN get surcease from the horrors they've endured,I am a tad skeptical that's gonna happen. :roll:
Things are going swimmingly
Many people have asked how we are doing in our negotiations with North Korea - I always reply by saying we are in no hurry, there is wonderful potential for great economic success for that country........Kim Jong Un sees it better than anyone and will fully take advantage of it for his people. We are doing just fine!
DJT
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

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Murf does she use a pen or a pencil? :D
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wahoomurf
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by wahoomurf »

cradleandshoot wrote:Murf does she use a pen or a pencil? :D
Cradle:That is an excellent question. Damned if I know.I've never mustered up the courage to ask her.She's a 98 pound stick of dynamite angryfire1 .I learned a long time ago------"Don't mess with mother-in-law".
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holmes435
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by holmes435 »

Wasn't sure where to put this:

US preparing for 'full' and 'rapid' withdrawal from Syria

I don't see this conflict resolving in the next couple of years at least.
Trinity
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by Trinity »

Russia, Turkey and Iran won’t complain.
Last edited by Trinity on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by Brooklyn »

holmes435 wrote:Wasn't sure where to put this:

US preparing for 'full' and 'rapid' withdrawal from Syria

I don't see this conflict resolving in the next couple of years at least.

'rapid' withdrawal?

We should never have been there in the first place as it is not our conflict.
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Trinity
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by Trinity »

Lindsey G is pissed. Isis has 20k to 30k fighters left. Calls this a huge Obama-like mistake.
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by dislaxxic »

A VERY worthy post i am re-posting here...it needs to be discussed.

This post was made by seacoaster over in the "Foreign Affairs" thread where rr hoped the topic would avoid the slings and arrows of outrageous partisanship...

The post is hiding over there in plain sight...and i didn't want people to miss it...it rings VERY true to me...
seacoaster wrote:Very interesting article from Foreign Affairs:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... pgtype=hpg

Here is the conclusion:

"Trump is unlikely to change his views while in office; indeed, he seems positively incapable of doing so. That means, at best, that the United States can expect either two or six more years of fecklessness, in which the country is erratic, unfocused, economically aggressive, and indifferent to the international norms and institutions that it helped create. That’s not nearly as bad as the chimera of a nuclear war conjured up by some of the president’s early critics. But it is scary enough.

The more disturbing sign for the future, however, is that although Trump has made nearly every aspect of U.S. foreign policy worse, he is not the sole cause of the United States’ increasingly erratic, shortsighted, and selfish behavior. He has merely accelerated a trend—that of Washington’s retreat from its global responsibilities—that was already developing by the time he took office and that will outlast him. Indeed, this trend is only likely to continue, since its roots lie not in passing political events but in the extinction of the living memory of World War II, a world-historical event that revolutionized U.S. foreign policy and shaped its course for most of the twentieth century.

The generation of American statesmen that shaped the postwar order had learned some hard lessons from the war. They learned from their experience with imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, and, later, the Soviet Union that it was incumbent on free nations to stand up to ideologies and governments hostile to individual freedom. They learned from the Great Depression and the economic nationalism of the 1930s that beggar-thy-neighbor policies and a focus on state advantage, rather than systemic rules, could create the conditions for totalitarian ideologies to flourish. And they learned from the geopolitical chaos of the interwar years that in order to secure peace, the United States would have to step up and guarantee it through a U.S.-led set of permanent alliances and international institutions. These might not always favor U.S. policies, but American leaders recognized that they would, in the long run, favor U.S. interests.

That generation learned the right lessons, as the peace and prosperity of the last 70 years attest. Yet in truth, the foreign policy they created was alien to the United States’ pre-1940s traditions, which saw the country as primarily a commercial power with little interest in global power politics, save as a means of protecting itself and preserving its sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere. Breaking free of those traditions required the lived experiences of those who had witnessed the poverty of the Depression and the destruction of the war years firsthand. Today, however, those lessons are no longer living truths; they are dead dogmas, as the philosopher John Stuart Mill might have put it. Most U.S. foreign policy elites have forgotten how to make the argument for a global order that has existed for longer than most of them have been alive; many have forgotten that they needed to argue for it at all. So when Trump came along shouting, “Make America great again!” and demanding to know why maintaining the global order was worth Washington’s time and effort, elites were at a loss for how to respond.

Above all, the generation that came of age during and immediately after World War II had a visceral awareness of just how terrible the world could become if the United States chose not to lead. They learned this the hard way, in a war that cost the United States over 400,000 dead and other countries millions more. Their passing, and the fading of the subsequent generation that they directly molded, is the most consequential fact of all for the future of U.S. foreign policy.

An omen of this change came on August 25, 2018, when Arizona Senator John McCain died at the age of 81. Born in 1936 to a naval officer who would go on to serve with distinction in World War II, McCain was a man shaped by the experiences of his parents’ generation, which led him not only to advocate American engagement in the world but also to tirelessly represent the United States abroad. There are no votes to be won by visiting crisis zones or simply tending to alliance relationships, but McCain was indefatigable in doing those things. He has no successor in either party. Nor are there any contemporary politicians as unambiguously committed to bipartisanship in foreign policy.

Inertia is a powerful force, especially when it comes to institutions. And for the moment, it continues to constrain Trump’s efforts to remake the international system along more nationalist, self-interested lines. But once he is gone, there will be no snapping back to the consensus of the 1990s or the early years of this century, which was sustained by men and women with personal memories of what the world looked like without U.S. leadership. Indeed, the erratic “America first” of today’s populist right may well be replaced in 2020 or 2024 by a no less erratic “America first” of the populist left. This tendency is already visible in figures such as Representative Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, a populist Democrat who met with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in January 2017 and who later cast doubt on Assad’s responsibility for his regime’s chemical attacks against Syrian civilians—all under the guise of anti-interventionism.

Eventually, both may be replaced by an “America first” of the exhausted middle. This version might be marked by more moderation and a greater amount of handwringing than its left- and right-wing cousins, but its chief characteristic would be a return to the mindset of the late 1930s. The United States would engage economically with the world but react with indifference to massacres or even genocide; withdraw psychologically, if not formally, from international institutions; and convince itself that other countries could not affect its liberties or interests as long as its military remained strong.

This last belief, in particular, will be proved untrue. To some extent, foreign interference in the U.S. political process has already proved it untrue. But it will be proved untrue in other, possibly more violent ways, too, as foreign countries come to believe that they can use force in aggressive or vicious ways without provoking an American response. This has happened before when the United States has failed to lead, and the results were not happy ones. Unfortunately, those who remember those unhappy results will soon be gone. It is to be hoped, but not to be expected, that the hard lessons they learned will not go along with them."
..
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youthathletics
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Re: Our Undeclared Wars

Post by youthathletics »

Thanks diss.

The article appears to be written on the fringes of a polarizing perspective.
"That generation learned the right lessons, as the peace and prosperity of the last 70 years attest. Yet in truth, the foreign policy they created was alien to the United States’ pre-1940s traditions, which saw the country as primarily a commercial power with little interest in global power politics, save as a means of protecting itself and preserving its sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere. Breaking free of those traditions required the lived experiences of those who had witnessed the poverty of the Depression and the destruction of the war years firsthand. Today, however, those lessons are no longer living truths; they are dead dogmas,"
The last sentence is what I have posted about a couple times....Trump is attempting to capitalize on forgone eras of post war/recession..where the MAGA slogan came from.
But once he is gone, there will be no snapping back to the consensus of the 1990s or the early years of this century, which was sustained by men and women with personal memories of what the world looked like without U.S. leadership.
Help me understand what this means as it defines US Leadership? How does he suppose we handle it both ways....Leadership as in pulling out of ME territories to say "we no longer will kill our own" over issues that have existed for hundreds of years, Leadership as in fighting for what is right with US stolen Intellectual property or falsely influencing currency to screw the US. Leadership as is we will not join and pay the way on GW/CC, since we are already in the forefront of R&D and implementation via ECM's (Energy Conservation Measures)?

The article, at least the part posted, appears to paint a picture that we have already taken the back seat..but to whom?
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