2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

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CU77
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by CU77 »

So, Hoo Dat, what is your solution?
a fan
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by a fan »

You can give UBI in exchange for guaranteed work/volunteerism. Get people MORE involved in their communities.
jhu72
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

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CU77
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by CU77 »

HooDat wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:54 pmI understand the appeal of UBI. I even think it is reasonable to think about it as a way to make up for the dislocation of workers. But I worry that it will have very, very bad unintended consequences. It is an utopian concept. I love utopian concepts, but I do not trust them....
And yet, somehow, we do not worry at all about the unintended consequences of inherited wealth, wealth that frees people from doing a lick of work due to no virtue of their own, only an accident of birth.

Logic dictates that anyone opposing UBI should also be in favor of 100% inheritance taxes.
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HooDat
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by HooDat »

CU77 wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:11 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:54 pmI understand the appeal of UBI. I even think it is reasonable to think about it as a way to make up for the dislocation of workers. But I worry that it will have very, very bad unintended consequences. It is an utopian concept. I love utopian concepts, but I do not trust them....
And yet, somehow, we do not worry at all about the unintended consequences of inherited wealth, wealth that frees people from doing a lick of work due to no virtue of their own, only an accident of birth.

Logic dictates that anyone opposing UBI should also be in favor of 100% inheritance taxes.
you got that right brother!!

... bet you didn't expect that as a response? inherited wealth is all the things you say and worse. If Mummsie or Daddums wants to set junior up with a sweet investment to start a company - more power to them. But I am a big believer in a very severe inheritance tax. Could I get on board for 100% ? Probably, in exchange for the right trade-offs. The current $10 million plus per kid is way too high, and yet the GOP whinges about it all the time .... because every American is a down-on-his-luck billionaire in the making :roll:
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foreverlax
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by foreverlax »

Yet they cheer for the death of the death tax....
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by a fan »

HooDat wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:25 pm ... bet you didn't expect that as a response? inherited wealth is all the things you say and worse. If Mummsie or Daddums wants to set junior up with a sweet investment to start a company - more power to them. But I am a big believer in a very severe inheritance tax. Could I get on board for 100% ? Probably, in exchange for the right trade-offs. The current $10 million plus per kid is way too high, and yet the GOP whinges about it all the time .... because every American is a down-on-his-luck billionaire in the making :roll:
You have some sort of an exemption for a few million, otherwise almost every single family business in America would fail. Family farming would disappear entirely in a single generation. Either that, or allow the tax to be paid over time instead of all at once.

Further, if you're a billionaire? You'd simply give your inheritance early, before you die. By nature, a punitive inheritance tax with no minimum would screw the poor.
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HooDat
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by HooDat »

CU77 wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:13 pm So, Hoo Dat, what is your solution?
Not sure I have one.

The things that stand out to me center on the following:

- we need need more small business owners and fewer employees

- we need more people who know how to do stuff other than shuffle paper and money around

- we need fewer people - a tone-deaf way of saying something completely counter to what every economist and politician is telling you - we need to get our population growth to zero. There ain't no more room at the inn. The more people you have, the more people you have to find something for them to do....

- thus my rants saying growth is not unequivocally good.....
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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HooDat
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:40 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:25 pm ... bet you didn't expect that as a response? inherited wealth is all the things you say and worse. If Mummsie or Daddums wants to set junior up with a sweet investment to start a company - more power to them. But I am a big believer in a very severe inheritance tax. Could I get on board for 100% ? Probably, in exchange for the right trade-offs. The current $10 million plus per kid is way too high, and yet the GOP whinges about it all the time .... because every American is a down-on-his-luck billionaire in the making :roll:
You have some sort of an exemption for a few million, otherwise almost every single family business in America would fail. Family farming would disappear entirely in a single generation. Either that, or allow the tax to be paid over time instead of all at once.

Further, if you're a billionaire? You'd simply give your inheritance early, before you die. By nature, a punitive inheritance tax with no minimum would bag the poor.
first off, if I'M a billionaire, let me go ahead and state right now - I am in full favor of repealing the horrendous, anti-farming/anti-family business death tax.... :lol: .. sorry you got me excited with "if you're a billionaire"....

afan - I share your concern for the family farm and family business, but would say - those kids need to prove their worth too. Let them buy the business from their parents over time. No one handed me a small business, I built it. I get the sense that you did too.

But with that said, we need to have the government make it EASY rather than hard to accomplish. So often the government is a gotcha rather than a help on things like this.....Right now, as you allude, only the billionaires have the resources to figure this stuff out without the "get out of jail free card" that is the threshold. It is needed because those folks can't afford $1,900(+) per hour tax attorneys to help them with their estate planning....
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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jhu72
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by jhu72 »

HooDat wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:25 pm
CU77 wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:11 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:54 pmI understand the appeal of UBI. I even think it is reasonable to think about it as a way to make up for the dislocation of workers. But I worry that it will have very, very bad unintended consequences. It is an utopian concept. I love utopian concepts, but I do not trust them....
And yet, somehow, we do not worry at all about the unintended consequences of inherited wealth, wealth that frees people from doing a lick of work due to no virtue of their own, only an accident of birth.

Logic dictates that anyone opposing UBI should also be in favor of 100% inheritance taxes.
you got that right brother!!

... bet you didn't expect that as a response? inherited wealth is all the things you say and worse. If Mummsie or Daddums wants to set junior up with a sweet investment to start a company - more power to them. But I am a big believer in a very severe inheritance tax. Could I get on board for 100% ? Probably, in exchange for the right trade-offs. The current $10 million plus per kid is way too high, and yet the GOP whinges about it all the time .... because every American is a down-on-his-luck billionaire in the making :roll:
Is it $10 million per kid or $10 million total for the individual who dies??
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foreverlax
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by foreverlax »

The tax applies only to the portion of the estate's value that exceeds an exemption level. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) doubled the estate tax exemption to $11.2 million for singles and $22.4 million for married couples, but only for 2018 through 2025. The exemption level is indexed for inflation
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holmes435
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by holmes435 »

Yeah, it's per the person receiving the money.

There's also no such thing as a "death tax" and the term should be winked out of existence. The government doesn't come take any of your money when you die (assuming you don't owe them anything). Only when someone receives the unearned money is it taxed.

If the Dems were smart they'd rebrand the term as inherited welfare or something similar.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by foreverlax »

holmes435 wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:11 am Yeah, it's per the person receiving the money. The estate typically pays the tax....$11.2 is exempt, (per person) - double that if you're married and the assets are titled properly.

There's also no such thing as a "death tax" and the term should be winked out of existence. The government doesn't come take any of your money when you die (assuming you don't owe them anything). Only when someone receives the unearned money is it taxed. 9 months after the estate has been created and valued, any excess over the exemption is taxable. Typically, that tax is paid by the estate - either through life insurance, liquid assets or liquidation of assets. That has been the rub for family farmers...all their net worth is tied up in land and equipment - neither of which does well at a fire sale auction.

If the Dems were smart they'd rebrand the term as inherited welfare or something similar.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by ardilla secreta »

Jim Bakker: Christian Leaders and Politicians Will Be Murdered if Trump is not Re-Elected

Just because Bakker is a felon, fraudster, philanderer, grifter, creep is no reason not to believe he has access to the truth. His words go a long way for some Americans.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/jim- ... e-elected/
jhu72
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by jhu72 »

ardilla secreta wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:24 am Jim Bakker: Christian Leaders and Politicians Will Be Murdered if Trump is not Re-Elected

Just because Bakker is a felon, fraudster, philanderer, grifter, creep is no reason not to believe he has access to the truth. His words go a long way for some Americans.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/jim- ... e-elected/
Amen. Hallelujah. Now lets have the choir sing something for us while the collection plate is passed.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

jhu72 wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:52 am
ardilla secreta wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:24 am Jim Bakker: Christian Leaders and Politicians Will Be Murdered if Trump is not Re-Elected

Just because Bakker is a felon, fraudster, philanderer, grifter, creep is no reason not to believe he has access to the truth. His words go a long way for some Americans.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/jim- ... e-elected/
Amen. Hallelujah. Now lets have the choir sing something for us while the collection plate is passed.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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CU77
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by CU77 »

HooDat wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:45 pm
CU77 wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:13 pm So, Hoo Dat, what is your solution?
Not sure I have one.

The things that stand out to me center on the following:

- we need need more small business owners and fewer employees

- we need more people who know how to do stuff other than shuffle paper and money around

- we need fewer people - a tone-deaf way of saying something completely counter to what every economist and politician is telling you - we need to get our population growth to zero. There ain't no more room at the inn. The more people you have, the more people you have to find something for them to do....

- thus my rants saying growth is not unequivocally good.....
And I agree with all of this!

Where we possibly differ is how to get there. I don't see the free market doing it. For one thing, if you want people to start businesses instead of working for large corporations, we absolutely need health care to be a complete non-issue in that transfer. We also need enough of a safety net to let all these small businesses fail without economic devastation to the owners and their families; too risky to start one up otherwise.

And here is where UBI comes in. If I know I have enough of a back-up to live decently on, even if my business fails, I might be willing to swing for the fences more often. This is pretty much what the non-indigent with inherited wealth (eg Trump) do. It will all only work with massive transfer of wealth (via high taxes) from the successful (in which luck plays a much bigger role than most successful people want to admit) to the (hopefully only temporarily) unsuccessful …

But there will always be the permanently unsuccessful ("the poor you will always have with you" said some dude a while back), due to bad luck, bad genes, mental health, whatever … and the rest of us have to agree that, as human beings, they still get to live in reasonably decent conditions.

That's the grand social contract I'd like to see. But as of now it seems to be in a galaxy far far away ...
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HooDat
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by HooDat »

CU77 wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:44 pm
HooDat wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:45 pm
CU77 wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:13 pm So, Hoo Dat, what is your solution?
Not sure I have one.

The things that stand out to me center on the following:

- we need need more small business owners and fewer employees

- we need more people who know how to do stuff other than shuffle paper and money around

- we need fewer people - a tone-deaf way of saying something completely counter to what every economist and politician is telling you - we need to get our population growth to zero. There ain't no more room at the inn. The more people you have, the more people you have to find something for them to do....

- thus my rants saying growth is not unequivocally good.....
And I agree with all of this!

Where we possibly differ is how to get there. I don't see the free market doing it. For one thing, if you want people to start businesses instead of working for large corporations, we absolutely need health care to be a complete non-issue in that transfer. We also need enough of a safety net to let all these small businesses fail without economic devastation to the owners and their families; too risky to start one up otherwise.

And here is where UBI comes in. If I know I have enough of a back-up to live decently on, even if my business fails, I might be willing to swing for the fences more often. This is pretty much what the non-indigent with inherited wealth (eg Trump) do. It will all only work with massive transfer of wealth (via high taxes) from the successful (in which luck plays a much bigger role than most successful people want to admit) to the (hopefully only temporarily) unsuccessful …

But there will always be the permanently unsuccessful ("the poor you will always have with you" said some dude a while back), due to bad luck, bad genes, mental health, whatever … and the rest of us have to agree that, as human beings, they still get to live in reasonably decent conditions.

That's the grand social contract I'd like to see. But as of now it seems to be in a galaxy far far away ...
yep, yep, yep. Really the only place I see us materially differing is on UBI. And even there, I think the concept is great. I just really worry about unintended consequences. On the health care front; I am a big believer that a community owes health care to its members. There is no greater obligation. Not sure I think our government is the best way to deliver the service. I am also not sure what types of medical procedures should fall into that "owed" category. Thinks like cosmetic surgery (that is not related to recovery from an injury) comes to mind. Not sure society should pay for a stripper's DDD's. But colds, broken bones, birth, disease (including mental health), we should be there for each other. The question is HOW we deliver it.
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a fan
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by a fan »

Not even Bernie Sanders is suggesting that the government deliver health care, as you say.

All the libs are suggesting is that government pay for the health care. An entirely, completely different proposition.

Of course, it doesn't help that FoxNation tells its viewers that that's what's going to happen.
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HooDat
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Re: 2020 Elections - Off and Running

Post by HooDat »

a fan wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:31 am Not even Bernie Sanders is suggesting that the government deliver health care, as you say.

All the libs are suggesting is that government pay for the health care. An entirely, completely different proposition.

Of course, it doesn't help that FoxNation tells its viewers that that's what's going to happen.
who ever controls the money, controls the service.

Do you actually think that the party that has fought charter schools and school choice tooth and nail, is going to allow true choice on healthcare? I don't.
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