The Politics of National Security

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:47 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:10 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:02 pm The only possible conclusion is that Capitol security has been woefully inadequate since 1776.

How that continued two decades past 9/11/01 is utterly beyond me, but it seems indisputable.
Nobody tried it before with a mob large enough to overpower the Capitol Police.
Nobody tried it before????

Holy f***, what kind of excuse is THAT?

Mobs storming buildings is NOT a new phenomenon.

At least on 9/11, there was the excuse that nobody had ever flown hijacked civilian planes into buildings before (even though the possibility had certainly been considered).

But a mob storming a building? You don't have a plan to stop that?

That should be stoppable, 24/7/365.
Like 9-11. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

They had a plan. They didn't execute it.
They were expecting a " First Amendment event". They got a riot.
Well, how stupid does one need to be to expect a "First Amendment event" when those coming told everyone something quite different?

Nope, I don't buy it...even an enormous case of white privilege doesn't make these people that stupid.

This looks like a willful disregard of the risks, an invitation even.

Breaching the fence was WAY, WAY too easy. My brother-in-law said that he didn't even see the barriers as he went through (having gone to the bathroom and long line, so at tail end); he thought it was a 'joyous celebration' where he was on the steps, expected one of Trump supporting legislators etc to come out to speak to the crowd....

However, those "inviting" these nut jobs onto the grounds, illegally, probably didn't figure on the mob tearing up the inside, breaking windows etc. The armed nut jobs who 'took' the capitol building in Michigan didn't go fully berserk, didn't have the enormous mob behind them and hadn't been whipped into a frenzy minutes before...and I understand some a-holes like Alex Jones were there with bullhorns urging them forward...and the "righteousness of their cause", the stakes involved, way less than what these nutjobs had just been told by POTUS...after weeks and weeks of this whipping up of anger.
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
a fan
Posts: 17723
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:44 pm They are not guards. They are aides. It is ceremonial or for security purposes (so the flight crews can fly in/out of civilian or military bases).
They are unarmed. Trust me. You want it this way. Lot's of trash talk about Banana Republics lately. This is one of the things that keeps us from being one.
Appreciate the info, but that still doesn't make sense. Armed Federal guys guard the White House. I don't see how which Federal Department cuts the armed Secret Service guys a check, but okay.

How about this: why doesn't our seat of government have a "department of badass military guys" quartered somewhere in all those underground passages around Congress and the SCOTUS? Wouldn't take that many to keep bad guys at bay.

You get an entirely different message from a Marine with just a Carbine, versus a police officer with a sidearm. And an entirely different level of protection, no?

As a taxpayer, I was pretty upset to see a bunch of idiots----some dumb enough to wear their work ID in full view-----waltz onto the Congressional floor.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17510
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:15 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:44 pm They are not guards. They are aides. It is ceremonial or for security purposes (so the flight crews can fly in/out of civilian or military bases).
They are unarmed. Trust me. You want it this way. Lot's of trash talk about Banana Republics lately. This is one of the things that keeps us from being one.
Appreciate the info, but that still doesn't make sense. Armed Federal guys guard the White House. I don't see how which Federal Department cuts the armed Secret Service guys a check, but okay.

How about this: why doesn't our seat of government have a "department of badass military guys" quartered somewhere in all those underground passages around Congress and the SCOTUS? Wouldn't take that many to keep bad guys at bay.You already have that manpower scattered throughout DC in the agents in the various LEO's. When the call comes, they jump up from their desk, put on their vest & windbreaker & head out. Most are former military with specialized follow on training. They're better suited to this mission that military light infantry, whose skills are needed elsewhere.

You get an entirely different message from a Marine with just a Carbine, versus a police officer with a sidearm. And an entirely different level of protection, no? The guys you see in camo fatigues, carrying AR's who look like soldiers are probably tactical teams from various fed agencies. Most are former military from combat arms branches.

As a taxpayer, I was pretty upset to see a bunch of idiots----some dumb enough to wear their work ID in full view-----waltz onto the Congressional floor.
Watch the follow on investigations. You will be impressed with how many armed fed agents, from so many different agencies scrambled to the Capitol faster than they could be effectively employed. The problem wasn't a shortage of available manpower. It was a failure to use the available manpower. Watch the inevitable hearings.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17510
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:47 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:10 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:02 pm The only possible conclusion is that Capitol security has been woefully inadequate since 1776.

How that continued two decades past 9/11/01 is utterly beyond me, but it seems indisputable.
Nobody tried it before with a mob large enough to overpower the Capitol Police.
Nobody tried it before????

Holy f***, what kind of excuse is THAT?

Mobs storming buildings is NOT a new phenomenon.

At least on 9/11, there was the excuse that nobody had ever flown hijacked civilian planes into buildings before (even though the possibility had certainly been considered).

But a mob storming a building? You don't have a plan to stop that?

That should be stoppable, 24/7/365.
Like 9-11. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

They had a plan. They didn't execute it.
They were expecting a " First Amendment event". They got a riot.
Well, how stupid does one need to be to expect a "First Amendment event" when those coming told everyone something quite different?

Nope, I don't buy it...even an enormous case of white privilege doesn't make these people that stupid.

This looks like a willful disregard of the risks, an invitation even.

Breaching the fence was WAY, WAY too easy. My brother-in-law said that he didn't even see the barriers as he went through (having gone to the bathroom and long line, so at tail end); he thought it was a 'joyous celebration' where he was on the steps, expected one of Trump supporting legislators etc to come out to speak to the crowd....

However, those "inviting" these nut jobs onto the grounds, illegally, probably didn't figure on the mob tearing up the inside, breaking windows etc. The armed nut jobs who 'took' the capitol building in Michigan didn't go fully berserk, didn't have the enormous mob behind them and hadn't been whipped into a frenzy minutes before...and I understand some a-holes like Alex Jones were there with bullhorns urging them forward...and the "righteousness of their cause", the stakes involved, way less than what these nutjobs had just been told by POTUS...after weeks and weeks of this whipping up of anger.
So you're convinced it was some Trumpian conspiracy from within, rather thant bureaucratic incompetence or lax Congressional oversight.
Stay tuned. There are plenty of rattled Congress members eager to validate your Trumpian conspiracy.
User avatar
Kismet
Posts: 4440
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Kismet »

For the Inauguration they better have a better plan. Might be time to put the 82nd or 101st on standby in the area as they did last summer. There are also reports of possible attacks on various state capitals and other remote targets both on January 20 and leading up to it.

I'd also refrain from comparing security at the WH vs Capitol. WH has a 10 ft unscalable fence around the entire property. Only one access point onto the property.

The Capitol is a public building with no fencing and multiple points of access and exits. Literally 1000s of people inside on a daily basis

That may need to change now but the comparisons of the two are apples and oranges in terms of security.

Lastly, anyone care to explain the folks they are looking for now with some priority who were seen with zip cuffs and other restraints and what their real purpose might have been? Some are speculating they were looking for Pence and other leaders. Also read Rep. Clyburn's concerns that they seemed to know the location of the alternative office he mostly uses rather than the labeled official office of the majority whip.

EDIT:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... the-senate

Apparently, perp has been identified as a decorated USAF pilot who despite being a USAFA graduate is not bright enough to not be wearing al sorts of insignia that confirm parts of his identity. Like most of the other criminals, he makes up all sorts of excuses for his actions most of which are dispelled by video evidence.
Last edited by Kismet on Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:57 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:47 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:10 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:02 pm The only possible conclusion is that Capitol security has been woefully inadequate since 1776.

How that continued two decades past 9/11/01 is utterly beyond me, but it seems indisputable.
Nobody tried it before with a mob large enough to overpower the Capitol Police.
Nobody tried it before????

Holy f***, what kind of excuse is THAT?

Mobs storming buildings is NOT a new phenomenon.

At least on 9/11, there was the excuse that nobody had ever flown hijacked civilian planes into buildings before (even though the possibility had certainly been considered).

But a mob storming a building? You don't have a plan to stop that?

That should be stoppable, 24/7/365.
Like 9-11. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

They had a plan. They didn't execute it.
They were expecting a " First Amendment event". They got a riot.
Well, how stupid does one need to be to expect a "First Amendment event" when those coming told everyone something quite different?

Nope, I don't buy it...even an enormous case of white privilege doesn't make these people that stupid.

This looks like a willful disregard of the risks, an invitation even.

Breaching the fence was WAY, WAY too easy. My brother-in-law said that he didn't even see the barriers as he went through (having gone to the bathroom and long line, so at tail end); he thought it was a 'joyous celebration' where he was on the steps, expected one of Trump supporting legislators etc to come out to speak to the crowd....

However, those "inviting" these nut jobs onto the grounds, illegally, probably didn't figure on the mob tearing up the inside, breaking windows etc. The armed nut jobs who 'took' the capitol building in Michigan didn't go fully berserk, didn't have the enormous mob behind them and hadn't been whipped into a frenzy minutes before...and I understand some a-holes like Alex Jones were there with bullhorns urging them forward...and the "righteousness of their cause", the stakes involved, way less than what these nutjobs had just been told by POTUS...after weeks and weeks of this whipping up of anger.
So you're convinced it was some Trumpian conspiracy from within, rather thant bureaucratic incompetence or lax Congressional oversight.
Stay tuned. There are plenty of rattled Congress members eager to validate your Trumpian conspiracy.
I can't tell yet whether the 'bureaucratic incompetence' was the chief factor or the purposeful disregard of the known risk, a welcoming of the attack, but I tend to think both were in play. There's too much here for it to be merely incompetence. Proving that will be a challenge, but not impossible. Indeed, many of these people are quite stupid in their 'righteous anger', so there may be a bright trail. The FBI is on it.

It's quite clear already that the planning for this scale of protest event didn't occur as usual and/or that various people involved positioned the 'protest' as just another '1st Amendment event' rather than what those on social media were clearly saying they intended...and it's not like such wasn't obvious even to those of us not in law enforcement, including what the target would be.

When the Proud Boys, Boogaloo Bois, QAnon, etc are all saying to bring weapons, that they intend to overturn the election for what they say are righteous reasons, and some of their members are saying they intend to kill cops and congressional people...they mean it.

Note, they intend to it again, harder next time. Take it seriously.

But nah, you'll just continue to fly air cover for these insurrectionists.
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Kismet wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:59 am For the Inauguration they better have a better plan. Might be time to put the 82nd or 101st on standby in the area as they did last summer. There are also reports of possible attacks on various state capitals and other remote targets both on January 20 and leading up to it.

I'd also refrain from comparing security at the WH vs Capitol. WH has a 10 ft unscalable fence around the entire property. Only one access point onto the property.

The Capitol is a public building with no fencing and multiple points of access and exits. Literally 1000s of people inside on a daily basis

That may need to change now but the comparisons of the two are apples and oranges in terms of security.

Lastly, anyone care to explain the folks they are looking for now with some priority who were seen with zip cuffs and other restraints and what their real purpose might have been? Some are speculating they were looking for Pence and other leaders. Also read Rep. Clyburn's concerns that they seemed to know the location of the alternative office he mostly uses rather than the labeled official office of the majority whip.
On the latter, there's been an explanation that the cuff ties may not have been brought to the building, but rather were found when they broke into the Capitol Police's container of such, one 'witness' says he saw them breaking the box...of course, how did they know to do so, and then what was the intent afterwards? I don't think it's merely idle speculation that there were off duty cops who knew where to look and what they were looking for, nor that the intent was to take prisoners. If there were off duty cops (and we'll eventually know) then it's highly possible they'd have brought cuffs etc and/or knew exactly where to look.

There was some question before the day as to how Pence would handle his role, but certainly by that morning, he was a major target of their ire, whipped up by Trump. Certainly Pelosi, Schumer, etc would have been key targets as well as AOC and any other recognizable Dem face...but also those 'weak' Republicans. Most prominently those like Romney. The risk to these folks was very, very real.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14443
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by youthathletics »

Kismet wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:59 am For the Inauguration they better have a better plan. Might be time to put the 82nd or 101st on standby in the area as they did last summer. There are also reports of possible attacks on various state capitals and other remote targets both on January 20 and leading up to it.

I'd also refrain from comparing security at the WH vs Capitol. WH has a 10 ft unscalable fence around the entire property. Only one access point onto the property.

The Capitol is a public building with no fencing and multiple points of access and exits. Literally 1000s of people inside on a daily basis

That may need to change now but the comparisons of the two are apples and oranges in terms of security.

Lastly, anyone care to explain the folks they are looking for now with some priority who were seen with zip cuffs and other restraints and what their real purpose might have been? Some are speculating they were looking for Pence and other leaders. Also read Rep. Clyburn's concerns that they seemed to know the location of the alternative office he mostly uses rather than the labeled official office of the majority whip.
There are armed CHP at each and every entrance of the Capitol, also CHP on the sidewalks leading to parking garages and just roaming the grounds on foot and bike. K-9 officers are also on stationed accordingly. At the WH, the walls are easily scalable. There are also staffed guard shacks on the roof of the WH. Surrounding buildings are often required to call the WH security detail when they hold events on their roof or have work being done...when they do, the staffing is often elevated at the WH.

As for the zip ties, every cop would be carrying them as part of the uniform dress, especially when their duty demands crowds. Also, the grounds were under construction for the inauguration. Jobsite gang boxes were there and pillaged, tools used as weapons...there could have been hundreds of zip ties on site to secure all the drapery for the scaffolding or used for securing any temporary items.

Clyburn is exactly right. I brought this up on here yesterday afternoon, after I spoke had been talking to my CHP friend (retired this year). He is amazed at how they knew exactly where to go. Confusingly, CU77 replied all they had to do was google the map of inside :roll: , as if it were that easy and every room is labeled exactly. Clyburn seems to understand the issue, just as the 25 year CHP officer.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 13841
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:47 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:10 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:02 pm The only possible conclusion is that Capitol security has been woefully inadequate since 1776.

How that continued two decades past 9/11/01 is utterly beyond me, but it seems indisputable.
Nobody tried it before with a mob large enough to overpower the Capitol Police.
Nobody tried it before????

Holy f***, what kind of excuse is THAT?

Mobs storming buildings is NOT a new phenomenon.

At least on 9/11, there was the excuse that nobody had ever flown hijacked civilian planes into buildings before (even though the possibility had certainly been considered).

But a mob storming a building? You don't have a plan to stop that?

That should be stoppable, 24/7/365.
Like 9-11. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

They had a plan. They didn't execute it.
They were expecting a " First Amendment event". They got a riot.
Well, how stupid does one need to be to expect a "First Amendment event" when those coming told everyone something quite different?

Nope, I don't buy it...even an enormous case of white privilege doesn't make these people that stupid.

This looks like a willful disregard of the risks, an invitation even.

Breaching the fence was WAY, WAY too easy. My brother-in-law said that he didn't even see the barriers as he went through (having gone to the bathroom and long line, so at tail end); he thought it was a 'joyous celebration' where he was on the steps, expected one of Trump supporting legislators etc to come out to speak to the crowd....

However, those "inviting" these nut jobs onto the grounds, illegally, probably didn't figure on the mob tearing up the inside, breaking windows etc. The armed nut jobs who 'took' the capitol building in Michigan didn't go fully berserk, didn't have the enormous mob behind them and hadn't been whipped into a frenzy minutes before...and I understand some a-holes like Alex Jones were there with bullhorns urging them forward...and the "righteousness of their cause", the stakes involved, way less than what these nutjobs had just been told by POTUS...after weeks and weeks of this whipping up of anger.
Some folks here have questioned the level of the response from the capital police. I agree that they were unprepared and over whelmed by numbers of protesters they could not control. I did watch the video of the young woman who tried to climb in the hallway through the broken glass. Capital police officer shot her dead on the spot. I don't know what the rules of engagement were for those capital police officers. I'm still not sure where I stand on her being shot. I think sadly it was probably justified. The woman was trying to breach the us capital and ransack it. A stupid move that cost her life. What exactly did she think she was going to accomplish?
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:51 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:47 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:10 pm
CU77 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:02 pm The only possible conclusion is that Capitol security has been woefully inadequate since 1776.

How that continued two decades past 9/11/01 is utterly beyond me, but it seems indisputable.
Nobody tried it before with a mob large enough to overpower the Capitol Police.
Nobody tried it before????

Holy f***, what kind of excuse is THAT?

Mobs storming buildings is NOT a new phenomenon.

At least on 9/11, there was the excuse that nobody had ever flown hijacked civilian planes into buildings before (even though the possibility had certainly been considered).

But a mob storming a building? You don't have a plan to stop that?

That should be stoppable, 24/7/365.
Like 9-11. It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.

They had a plan. They didn't execute it.
They were expecting a " First Amendment event". They got a riot.
Well, how stupid does one need to be to expect a "First Amendment event" when those coming told everyone something quite different?

Nope, I don't buy it...even an enormous case of white privilege doesn't make these people that stupid.

This looks like a willful disregard of the risks, an invitation even.

Breaching the fence was WAY, WAY too easy. My brother-in-law said that he didn't even see the barriers as he went through (having gone to the bathroom and long line, so at tail end); he thought it was a 'joyous celebration' where he was on the steps, expected one of Trump supporting legislators etc to come out to speak to the crowd....

However, those "inviting" these nut jobs onto the grounds, illegally, probably didn't figure on the mob tearing up the inside, breaking windows etc. The armed nut jobs who 'took' the capitol building in Michigan didn't go fully berserk, didn't have the enormous mob behind them and hadn't been whipped into a frenzy minutes before...and I understand some a-holes like Alex Jones were there with bullhorns urging them forward...and the "righteousness of their cause", the stakes involved, way less than what these nutjobs had just been told by POTUS...after weeks and weeks of this whipping up of anger.
Some folks here have questioned the level of the response from the capital police. I agree that they were unprepared and over whelmed by numbers of protesters they could not control. I did watch the video of the young woman who tried to climb in the hallway through the broken glass. Capital police officer shot her dead on the spot. I don't know what the rules of engagement were for those capital police officers. I'm still not sure where I stand on her being shot. I think sadly it was probably justified. The woman was trying to breach the us capital and ransack it. A stupid move that cost her life. What exactly did she think she was going to accomplish?
I think the actions of some (likely most) Capitol Police were immensely heroic. Not sure if that includes all on the line, as the selfie one should be fired, any who opened doors should be fired. But clearly there was a failure at the leadership level to staff appropriately.

I think the shooting of the woman was unfortunate, but entirely justified. Police officers had already been wounded and the insurrectionists were carrying all sorts of weapons, further breach would have had the Congressional people, members and staff, in direct jeopardy.
njbill
Posts: 6835
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:35 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by njbill »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:51 am Some folks here have questioned the level of the response from the capital police. I agree that they were unprepared and over whelmed by numbers of protesters they could not control. I did watch the video of the young woman who tried to climb in the hallway through the broken glass. Capital police officer shot her dead on the spot. I don't know what the rules of engagement were for those capital police officers. I'm still not sure where I stand on her being shot. I think sadly it was probably justified. The woman was trying to breach the us capital and ransack it. A stupid move that cost her life. What exactly did she think she was going to accomplish?
Me too. I’m not sure whether I think the force was justified either. Willing to let the investigation play out though.

I’ve seen two graphic videos of the shooting. I’m sure a lot of other posters have seen the same ones. In one of them, someone has shouted several times “he has a gun,” referring to the Capitol Police officer crouched on the other side of the barricaded door. Sounded like that shouting was loud enough for anyone in the immediate vicinity to have heard the warning, including the woman in question. Of course, the scene was chaotic and, I’m sure, quite loud, so maybe she didn’t. That probably isn’t relevant to whether the force used was justified, but to me, it is important information to know whether she was warned first.

One of the videos showed a sign indicating that this was the entrance to one of the Speaker’s offices. The video also showed about a dozen congressmen down the corridor, on the inside. Don’t know if there is another way out. If not, this obviously was an extraordinarily dangerous situation if this mob was going to storm an area where a dozen congressmen or more were trapped. If that was the case, I can sort of understand why the cop fired his weapon.
PizzaSnake
Posts: 4691
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by PizzaSnake »

njbill wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:48 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:51 am Some folks here have questioned the level of the response from the capital police. I agree that they were unprepared and over whelmed by numbers of protesters they could not control. I did watch the video of the young woman who tried to climb in the hallway through the broken glass. Capital police officer shot her dead on the spot. I don't know what the rules of engagement were for those capital police officers. I'm still not sure where I stand on her being shot. I think sadly it was probably justified. The woman was trying to breach the us capital and ransack it. A stupid move that cost her life. What exactly did she think she was going to accomplish?
Me too. I’m not sure whether I think the force was justified either. Willing to let the investigation play out though.

I’ve seen two graphic videos of the shooting. I’m sure a lot of other posters have seen the same ones. In one of them, someone has shouted several times “he has a gun,” referring to the Capitol Police officer crouched on the other side of the barricaded door. Sounded like that shouting was loud enough for anyone in the immediate vicinity to have heard the warning, including the woman in question. Of course, the scene was chaotic and, I’m sure, quite loud, so maybe she didn’t. That probably isn’t relevant to whether the force used was justified, but to me, it is important information to know whether she was warned first.

One of the videos showed a sign indicating that this was the entrance to one of the Speaker’s offices. The video also showed about a dozen congressmen down the corridor, on the inside. Don’t know if there is another way out. If not, this obviously was an extraordinarily dangerous situation if this mob was going to storm an area where a dozen congressmen or more were trapped. If that was the case, I can sort of understand why the cop fired his weapon.
“Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind”.

Or

“Don’t want none, don’t start none.”

Personally, if I were the officer who was chased up the stairs, I would have fired a warning shot and then started shooting the mob members point blank. A superior position at the top of the stairs, along with the dead weight of the fallen, would have been fairly unassailable.

A little harsh, perhaps, but I have little patience for fools. Like the 22-year “girl”, Miya, it is time to grow up and bear the responsibility for one’s actions.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
a fan
Posts: 17723
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by a fan »

njbill wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:48 pm If that was the case, I can sort of understand why the cop fired his weapon.
It's a Federal Building, and they were literally protecting an active government proceeding. These were by the book, letter of the law, terrorists. They could have mowed those protesters down, and there isn't a prosecutor on the planet who could have convicted them of breaking the law.

That's why their actions are so freaking heroic. Every officer in that building deserves a medal for their restraint. Even the one who shot that woman.....they're lucky he didn't shoot ALL of them.

That day could have had hundreds of casualties. Someone up there likes America, because we freaking lucked out that it wasn't a mass casualty event...
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17510
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:50 am Note, they intend to it again, harder next time. Take it seriously.

But nah, you'll just continue to fly air cover for these insurrectionists.
...& I am eagerly looking forward to the FBI hunting them down & taking them out of action,
creating a precedent for future political violence.
I wish this had started in Ferguson.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:33 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:50 am Note, they intend to it again, harder next time. Take it seriously.

But nah, you'll just continue to fly air cover for these insurrectionists.
...& I am eagerly looking forward to the FBI hunting them down & taking them out of action,
creating a precedent for future political violence.
I wish this had started in Ferguson.
sheesh, you had me with the first sentence.
But you just couldn't help yourself, could you?

What a crock. Ferguson???
To quote someone, "Come on, man" you can't be this much of a racist can you?
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 25756
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

a fan wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:42 pm
njbill wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:48 pm If that was the case, I can sort of understand why the cop fired his weapon.
It's a Federal Building, and they were literally protecting an active government proceeding. These were by the book, letter of the law, terrorists. They could have mowed those protesters down, and there isn't a prosecutor on the planet who could have convicted them of breaking the law.

That's why their actions are so freaking heroic. Every officer in that building deserves a medal for their restraint. Even the one who shot that woman.....they're lucky he didn't shoot ALL of them.

That day could have had hundreds of casualties. Someone up there likes America, because we freaking lucked out that it wasn't a mass casualty event...
I may not be quite at this level, but I do think the particular shooting was justified, police had already been hurt, one ultimately fatally, and the Congress people and staff were just yards away from the mob. Broken windows and she's coming through the window, not of enough cops if you let them come...

I want all these a-holes tracked down and prosecuted...up to their employers what they do.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Farfromgeneva »

PizzaSnake wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:33 pm
njbill wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:48 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:51 am Some folks here have questioned the level of the response from the capital police. I agree that they were unprepared and over whelmed by numbers of protesters they could not control. I did watch the video of the young woman who tried to climb in the hallway through the broken glass. Capital police officer shot her dead on the spot. I don't know what the rules of engagement were for those capital police officers. I'm still not sure where I stand on her being shot. I think sadly it was probably justified. The woman was trying to breach the us capital and ransack it. A stupid move that cost her life. What exactly did she think she was going to accomplish?
Me too. I’m not sure whether I think the force was justified either. Willing to let the investigation play out though.

I’ve seen two graphic videos of the shooting. I’m sure a lot of other posters have seen the same ones. In one of them, someone has shouted several times “he has a gun,” referring to the Capitol Police officer crouched on the other side of the barricaded door. Sounded like that shouting was loud enough for anyone in the immediate vicinity to have heard the warning, including the woman in question. Of course, the scene was chaotic and, I’m sure, quite loud, so maybe she didn’t. That probably isn’t relevant to whether the force used was justified, but to me, it is important information to know whether she was warned first.

One of the videos showed a sign indicating that this was the entrance to one of the Speaker’s offices. The video also showed about a dozen congressmen down the corridor, on the inside. Don’t know if there is another way out. If not, this obviously was an extraordinarily dangerous situation if this mob was going to storm an area where a dozen congressmen or more were trapped. If that was the case, I can sort of understand why the cop fired his weapon.
“Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind”.

Or

“Don’t want none, don’t start none.”

Personally, if I were the officer who was chased up the stairs, I would have fired a warning shot and then started shooting the mob members point blank. A superior position at the top of the stairs, along with the dead weight of the fallen, would have been fairly unassailable.

A little harsh, perhaps, but I have little patience for fools. Like the 22-year “girl”, Miya, it is time to grow up and bear the responsibility for one’s actions.
I know the whole shoot at center mass thing but when they’re like 12-24” away I don’t why they can’t shoot them in the Quadracep and call it a day.
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22325
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:37 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:33 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:50 am Note, they intend to it again, harder next time. Take it seriously.

But nah, you'll just continue to fly air cover for these insurrectionists.
...& I am eagerly looking forward to the FBI hunting them down & taking them out of action,
creating a precedent for future political violence.
I wish this had started in Ferguson.
sheesh, you had me with the first sentence.
But you just couldn't help yourself, could you?

What a crock. Ferguson???
To quote someone, "Come on, man" you can't be this much of a racist can you?
I know they should’ve started with Colin Kapernick and all those uppity football and basketball players who defiled our country with their egregious seditious behavior!
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17510
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:25 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:37 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:33 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:50 am Note, they intend to it again, harder next time. Take it seriously.

But nah, you'll just continue to fly air cover for these insurrectionists.
...& I am eagerly looking forward to the FBI hunting them down & taking them out of action,
creating a precedent for future political violence.
I wish this had started in Ferguson.
sheesh, you had me with the first sentence.
But you just couldn't help yourself, could you?

What a crock. Ferguson???
To quote someone, "Come on, man" you can't be this much of a racist can you?
I know they should’ve started with Colin Kapernick and all those uppity football and basketball players who defiled our country with their egregious seditious behavior!
There must be a quota system for looting, arson & mayhem.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32144
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:33 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:25 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:37 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:33 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:50 am Note, they intend to it again, harder next time. Take it seriously.

But nah, you'll just continue to fly air cover for these insurrectionists.
...& I am eagerly looking forward to the FBI hunting them down & taking them out of action,
creating a precedent for future political violence.
I wish this had started in Ferguson.
sheesh, you had me with the first sentence.
But you just couldn't help yourself, could you?

What a crock. Ferguson???
To quote someone, "Come on, man" you can't be this much of a racist can you?
I know they should’ve started with Colin Kapernick and all those uppity football and basketball players who defiled our country with their egregious seditious behavior!
There must be a quota system for looting, arson & mayhem.
Ferguson triggered you.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Post Reply

Return to “POLITICS”