Baseball

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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

6x6 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:38 am ... sign stealing is not illegal in MLB ...
I might be even more upset about Selig and his then protégé Manfred not doing a damn thing about the steroid and PED era.

The Bash brothers and others were tearing the cover off the ball in the 1980s but the lords of baseball waited until 1991 to finally ban roids. They waited many years more to finally test for illegal chems but that's because the players union refused to allow testing until 2003. Therefore, if the 1989 World Series was fixed because of people were pumped up with chems, it was the players who caused it. So don't blame Selig, blame the players.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

Alex Cora fired: https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york- ... -stealing/


Amid the Manfred report on the cheating of the Houston Astros and subsequent punishments issued by the MLB, the nine-page report showed the involvement of Alex Cora but did not issue any sanctions against him due to the Red Sox investigation was still ongoing. The report mentioned Cora 11 times, describing him as a critical person in the planning and execution of the cheating scheme. The Red Sox organization last evening fired Alex Cora as the Red Sox Manager.


Sanctions to follow.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
njbill
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Re: Baseball

Post by njbill »

6x6 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:38 am Regarding those questioning why Manfred didn’t take action against the players and while Beltran will probably escape punishment even though he was one of the ring leaders, here is his response.

In explaining why no players would face any discipline, Commissioner Manfred wrote the following:

“Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult, because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability.

“It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other clubs.
I have pretty much been a fan of Manfred until now.

“Difficult”? Give me a break. He found enough evidence to punish the manager and general manager. He can’t determine which players are culpable? Do your job. Might there be some tough calls to make in terms of who should be punished and who gets to skate? Maybe. That’s why he is paid the big bucks.

“Impractical”? Huh? You just suspend any guilty party regardless of which team they may now be with. Simple.

As bad as PEDs were, they weren’t against the rules of the game at the time. Sign stealing using technology was against the rules when it was done. Big difference in my view.
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Kismet
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Re: Baseball

Post by Kismet »

Manfred also forgot to mention that the players are unionized and that the players' union was not going to go for anything. So they cooked up , they all testified under some kind of "immunity" - note the only folks getting nailed are those who are not members of a union.

Beltran is a crossover (was a player involved in the scheme) but is now a manager. Will be interested to see if the Mets show him the door. given his involvement in the cheating.

They should have vacated the Astros and Red Sox WS titles.
wlaxnut
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Re: Baseball

Post by wlaxnut »

I think Manfred handled it correctly. If you come down hard on management, they will sure pay attention in the future to what their players are doing.

Too bad we don’t have a commissioner like this in the NFL, right Patriots fans?
6x6
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Re: Baseball

Post by 6x6 »

njbill wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:10 am
6x6 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:38 am Regarding those questioning why Manfred didn’t take action against the players and while Beltran will probably escape punishment even though he was one of the ring leaders, here is his response.

In explaining why no players would face any discipline, Commissioner Manfred wrote the following:

“Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult, because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability.

“It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other clubs.
I have pretty much been a fan of Manfred until now.

“Difficult”? Give me a break. He found enough evidence to punish the manager and general manager. He can’t determine which players are culpable? Do your job. Might there be some tough calls to make in terms of who should be punished and who gets to skate? Maybe. That’s why he is paid the big bucks.

“Impractical”? Huh? You just suspend any guilty party regardless of which team they may now be with. Simple.

As bad as PEDs were, they weren’t against the rules of the game at the time. Sign stealing using technology was against the rules when it was done. Big difference in my view.
You don’t consider steroids PEDs? They were banned in 1991. If you’re referring to Andro in the 80s and a bit later you’re correct. That’s my problem with Selig and MLB, he didn’t push hard enough. Back when it was ok for McGuire and others in baseball, Andro was already banned by the NFL and the NCAA. Hell even when banned the testing didn’t start until ‘03. Of course the MLBPA had a lot to do with this. Selig could have grown pair, pushed hard on cleaning things up and at least enforce rules on the books. How about not giving Bonds’ personal supplier a credential and room in the clubhouse when Greg Anderson wasn’t even on the Giants’ payroll. That’s just one small example. For Selig, Manfred and the owners it was “Don’t ask, Don’t tell”. It wasn’t really until 2005 during the House Committee on Government Reform did baseball take notice. Oh by the way, they asked Selig to testify, guess what, he declined. Only showed up because they sent him a subpoena.

Sorry to veer off topic but I think it was worse than the current cheating issues. Should you want to read more about the era, pick up the book, Baseball Cop. It should enlighten you. https://www.amazon.com/Baseball-Cop-Edd ... 0316483974
njbill
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Re: Baseball

Post by njbill »

Yes, I would consider steroids to be PEDs. I was incorrect about the date they were banned by baseball. Thanks for pointing that out. However, since there was no testing for steroids until 2003, there was no concrete proof as to which players may be using steroids, although, of course, there was a lot of (probably well-informed) conjecture. You really can’t punish someone without proof. Now it was beyond idiotic to not test for a banned substance for 12 years, but that was how they ran their railroad back then.

I agree that the PED scandal was worse, much worse, than this sign stealing situation. But two wrongs don’t make a right. Here, when the sign stealing was concentrated on a particular team, I think it would be appropriate to vacate the World Series title. If, hypothetically speaking, you had proof that, say, five key players on a World Series winning team had illegally used steroids, maybe that team should have any championship vacated. But I don’t think we ever had an actual situation anywhere near that hypothetical.

I agree 100% about MLB and Selig back then. They sold their souls to the devil. No question.
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Nigel
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Re: Baseball

Post by Nigel »

wlaxnut wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:33 am I think Manfred handled it correctly. If you come down hard on management, they will sure pay attention in the future to what their players are doing.

Too bad we don’t have a commissioner like this in the NFL, right Patriots fans?
Breaking: Patriots hire former Astros Hinch, Cora, and Beltran. Belichick: They share our values.
If we need that extra push over the cliff, ya know what we do...eleven, exactly.
njbill
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Re: Baseball

Post by njbill »

:lol:
wlaxnut
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Re: Baseball

Post by wlaxnut »

Nigel wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:25 pm
wlaxnut wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:33 am I think Manfred handled it correctly. If you come down hard on management, they will sure pay attention in the future to what their players are doing.

Too bad we don’t have a commissioner like this in the NFL, right Patriots fans?
Breaking: Patriots hire former Astros Hinch, Cora, and Beltran. Belichick: They share our values.
Even Boston knows they are a city of cheaters:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2020/ ... ost_Viewed
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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

wlaxnut wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:06 am

Even Boston knows they are a city of cheaters:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2020/ ... ost_Viewed

GREAT article!




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Image



Yup - it's the American way!
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

https://bit.ly/2TQ5RM6



Derek Jeter - well deserved admission into the Baseball Hall of Fame. :D


The sad part is that Gene Michael is still not in the HOF.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Kismet
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Re: Baseball

Post by Kismet »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/houston-as ... 1581112994

‘Dark Arts’ and ‘Codebreaker’: The Origins of the Houston Astros Cheating Scheme
MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred’s previously undisclosed letter to Astros GM Jeff Luhnow details the team’s spreadsheet and algorithm to steal signs in one of the biggest scandals in baseball history

Pretty damning article - they should have re-possessed their championship trophy
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Jim Malone
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Re: Baseball

Post by Jim Malone »

Hank Aaron says they should be banned for life per report I saw earlier today.
Kismet wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:36 pm https://www.wsj.com/articles/houston-as ... 1581112994

‘Dark Arts’ and ‘Codebreaker’: The Origins of the Houston Astros Cheating Scheme
MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred’s previously undisclosed letter to Astros GM Jeff Luhnow details the team’s spreadsheet and algorithm to steal signs in one of the biggest scandals in baseball history

Pretty damning article - they should have re-possessed their championship trophy
The parent, not the coach.
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youthathletics
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Re: Baseball

Post by youthathletics »

Reading that MLB has passed a rule that each pitcher must face a minimum of 3 batters.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

youthathletics wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:52 pm Reading that MLB has passed a rule that each pitcher must face a minimum of 3 batters.


Remember the old saying, in baseball, being a left handed pitcher means never having to say goodbye.

For years, MLB teams had a left hander in the bullpen who would enter the game in relief to face a strong left handed batter. Once he was finished with the batter whether through an out, a walk, or whatever, the pitcher was relieved with (usually) the set up reliever. Now that the aging lefties will have to face three batters, this will likely mean the end of the one batter left handed veteran pitcher. For me as an old school player/coach/fan I'm sure gonna miss them.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Nigel
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Re: Baseball

Post by Nigel »

Choo hits it out of the park! ATTA BOY!

https://sports.yahoo.com/rangers-vet-ch ... 34815.html
If we need that extra push over the cliff, ya know what we do...eleven, exactly.
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Nigel
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Re: Baseball

Post by Nigel »

Baseball from Taiwan - Fubon Guardians vs Rakuten Monkeys

Nobody in the stands...and the benches empty!
Wait, what about social distancing?

https://twitter.com/ElevenSportsTW/stat ... 2291512320
If we need that extra push over the cliff, ya know what we do...eleven, exactly.
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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

Say it ain't so, Joe:


https://sports.yahoo.com/mlbua-releases ... 43184.html


Umpire Joe West believes coronvirus isn't so bad. Jeepers. What the hell is wrong with him?
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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Brooklyn
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Re: Baseball

Post by Brooklyn »

Been watching some MLB scrimmage games on you tube. No fans, no knockdown pitches, no agrressive running into fielders, no commercials, and the umps have been using very generous strike zones. The games have moved along quickly and that always makes for more fun.

Watched Philly play a scrimmage today and saw a dude named Blake Parker pitching in middle relief. The guy reminded me of legendary Ron Kline who pitched back in the 1950s/60s:

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/ron-kline/
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/player ... =klinero01


Both made all kinds of movements and gestures before they finally threw the pitch, much like Ed Norton going through a arm and hand ritual before finally shooting the billiards. You don't see much of that nowadays unlike the old school era.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
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