Regional Realignment

D2 Mens Lacrosse
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leeatu
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Regional Realignment

Post by leeatu »

With the new Peach Belt Conference there are now 10 men's lax conferences. Six of them are in the South Region. I propose moving the GLVC to the North. It will better balance the number of teams in the regions. If this change is made, the North will have 39 teams and the South will have 35 teams (36 when Flagler College begins in 2021). The current split is 33 North/41 South. I have heard that there will probably be resistance by some or all GLVC teams to be moved to the North. Thoughts?
shaadb-man
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by shaadb-man »

Agreed, it seems like the logical move. Who would be against it?
WhiteCarrera
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by WhiteCarrera »

I'd expect the GLVC and the RMAC schools to all have their reservations. These programs already travel more than most to get quality in-region games, and this change would hurt them both.

First, the GLVC and RMAC schools play a lot of games against one another, and if these were to become out-of-region games it would not be good. If lacrosse in the west and midwest is to continue to grow, then you probably shouldn't take away incentive for these teams to play one another. It would hurt the GLVC teams less, but can you imagine the impact if a Colorado school had to leapfrog an entire geographic area in order to get an in-region game.

Second, the GLVC schools have played a lot of southern teams in early months. Tampa, St. Leo, and Limestone have all made the St. Louis/Kansas City/Indy swing, and reciprocated when these teams headed south. Who wants to head to New York / New England in March, when you could be staying south of the Mason-Dixon?
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RedFromMI
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by RedFromMI »

Given the equal representation on the Lacrosse Committee for DII between North and South, I don't know as there is yet enough imbalance to see a change happen. Part of the reason for the imbalance in my estimation is the somewhat larger number of recent team additions in the South compared to the North.

Although it is impossible to predict when this might happen - if the field is expanded to 16 teams like the women currently, you might also see a move to four regions. Which is what the women ended up doing...
CarolinaLax Dad
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by CarolinaLax Dad »

Balancing out north and south seems likes like something that would gain a lot of interest in normal times. I do agree it's good for D2 to balance North and South. The question to ask is will further accelerate the haves and have nots?

The Peach Belt Conference doesn't have a team IMO that will make the tournament anytime soon. The best teams in the south will continue to come from the SAC, Sunshine and Conference Carolinas- in that order- excluding the GLVC. Moving the GLC with UI - which has played really well and represented the GLVC well (my kids played or play in the SAC or CC) would strengthen the North - however I do see the arguement for the teams in the west. Colorado Mesa gave a great LR team all they could handle several years ago. Would Mesa or UI make the tournament if they were in the north? And would a lesser team from the Peach Belt make it because they are undefeated - while playing a weaker s schedule?

Maybe 4 regions is the way to go like womens- if mens goes to 16 teams.
leeatu
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by leeatu »

I agree, men's lax postseason should be 16 teams. It has the 2nd worst playoff ratio in D2, women's lax is the worst. Expanding the bracket to 16 would put men's lax in line with the average D2 playoff ratio. As of now, there will be 75 teams when Flagler starts in 2021.

A possible 4-region alignment

R1 (17)
* RMAC (4)
* GLVC (7) - This now includes Davenport
* PBC (6) - Including Flagler and Young Harris

R2 (19)
* SAC (11)
* SSC (8)

R3 (22) - Keeping the MEC lax teams in one region
* CC (7)
* GMAC (7) - Guessing Alderson Broaddus remains a GMAC affiliate after moving to the MEC
* ECC (8) - Including the possible new team at D'Youville

R4 (18)
* CACC (7)
* NE10 (11)

Alternate possibility swaps GMAC and PBC giving R1 18 teams and R3 21 teams but splits Frostburg State from the other MEC teams. I'd like to try to keep the MEC teams in one region because I see that conference being the next to sponsor men's lax followed closely by the GSC.
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RedFromMI
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by RedFromMI »

leeatu wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:59 pm I agree, men's lax postseason should be 16 teams. It has the 2nd worst playoff ratio in D2, women's lax is the worst. Expanding the bracket to 16 would put men's lax in line with the average D2 playoff ratio. As of now, there will be 75 teams when Flagler starts in 2021.

A possible 4-region alignment

R1 (17)
* RMAC (4)
* GLVC (7) - This now includes Davenport
* PBC (6) - Including Flagler and Young Harris

R2 (19)
* SAC (11)
* SSC (8)

R3 (22) - Keeping the MEC lax teams in one region
* CC (7)
* GMAC (7) - Guessing Alderson Broaddus remains a GMAC affiliate after moving to the MEC
* ECC (8) - Including the possible new team at D'Youville

R4 (18)
* CACC (7)
* NE10 (11)

Alternate possibility swaps GMAC and PBC giving R1 18 teams and R3 21 teams but splits Frostburg State from the other MEC teams. I'd like to try to keep the MEC teams in one region because I see that conference being the next to sponsor men's lax followed closely by the GSC.
Really tough to have the SAC and CC in different regions, given their geographic overlap. Plus huge travel compared to now with SC schools traveling potentially to NY for region matches.
River Donkey
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by River Donkey »

leeatu wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:59 pm I agree, men's lax postseason should be 16 teams. It has the 2nd worst playoff ratio in D2, women's lax is the worst. Expanding the bracket to 16 would put men's lax in line with the average D2 playoff ratio. As of now, there will be 75 teams when Flagler starts in 2021.

A possible 4-region alignment

R1 (17)
* RMAC (4)
* GLVC (7) - This now includes Davenport
* PBC (6) - Including Flagler and Young Harris

R2 (19)
* SAC (11)
* SSC (8)

R3 (22) - Keeping the MEC lax teams in one region
* CC (7)
* GMAC (7) - Guessing Alderson Broaddus remains a GMAC affiliate after moving to the MEC
* ECC (8) - Including the possible new team at D'Youville

R4 (18)
* CACC (7)
* NE10 (11)

Alternate possibility swaps GMAC and PBC giving R1 18 teams and R3 21 teams but splits Frostburg State from the other MEC teams. I'd like to try to keep the MEC teams in one region because I see that conference being the next to sponsor men's lax followed closely by the GSC.
Never happen this way. ECC, CC would never go for it. $$$$$$
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RedFromMI
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by RedFromMI »

Your biggest issue (four region model) is who gets thrown into the NE area when you have three conferences that fit (NE10, ECC, CACC) with 25/26 teams, and the South in general with more teams and no easy way to divide outside of SSC, which is distinct enough from the rest of the SE (but also finds a lot of natural rivalries there. SSC+CC+SAC+PBC=32 teams. That is hard to deal with if you want 4 regions with 58 of 76 teams in a hard to split situation.

Remember the whole point of regionalization is to minimize the cost of travel for the schools during the regular season.
leeatu
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by leeatu »

I know the chances of that plan working would be none and next to none. Yeah, splitting up overlapping conferences is not ideal. My only objective was having the number of teams in each region as balanced as possible with no consideration given to strength of conference. Just imagining what a 4-region format would look like but it might still be too early to have 4 regions. Women's lax had 12 conferences before they went to 4 regions for the 2018 season; 2 regions with 2 conferences each and 2 regions with 4 conferences each. So, maybe wait until the men get to 12 conferences to go to 4 regions but the bracket needs to go ahead and expand to 16 now.

But hey, we're four months in with no sports and seemingly no end in sight yet. It has gotten really boring trying fill all this extra time.
LaxCoach13
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by LaxCoach13 »

from experience, being involved in WLax going to regions this would never fly. At the D2 level it is not able fair or balance its all about travel and cost, they would only agree to this if it was true regional set up.
WhiteCarrera
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by WhiteCarrera »

I think it'll be a long time before playoffs expand to 16. The NCAA has always used 7.5 - 8 teams per playoff spot as the standard for discussions, and the bump to 12 got DII lacrosse on the right side of that ratio. I expect it needs to get closer to 90 programs before they consider a 16 team bracket. It follows that a region can go to 45 teams before it's too big for six spots, so no real urgent need to realign either.

Four regions would be cool though. I'd like to see the North and South split into sub-regions (for lack of a better term) -- like a North A & B and a South A & B. You could keep the formulas and emphasis on in-region play, but then allocate the first 8 playoff spots to the top two teams in each region. Spots 9-12 could go to the best of the rest. Most years the North and South would each get six total spots, but in a lopsided year, it could be five and seven.
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leeatu
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by leeatu »

WhiteCarrera wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:20 am I think it'll be a long time before playoffs expand to 16. The NCAA has always used 7.5 - 8 teams per playoff spot as the standard for discussions, and the bump to 12 got DII lacrosse on the right side of that ratio. I expect it needs to get closer to 90 programs before they consider a 16 team bracket. It follows that a region can go to 45 teams before it's too big for six spots, so no real urgent need to realign either.

Four regions would be cool though. I'd like to see the North and South split into sub-regions (for lack of a better term) -- like a North A & B and a South A & B. You could keep the formulas and emphasis on in-region play, but then allocate the first 8 playoff spots to the top two teams in each region. Spots 9-12 could go to the best of the rest. Most years the North and South would each get six total spots, but in a lopsided year, it could be five and seven.
Sorry, but I believe you have been badly mislead about the playoff ratio. If the ratio was 7.5 - 8.0 and 68 teams are selected (D1 MB) that would mean there are 510 - 544 teams in the division. In D1, men's basketball has the most number of teams with 352 as of the date of this post. That sport selects 68 teams and is surpassed by D1 women's golf selecting 72 teams and D1 men's golf selecting 81 teams. Women's basketball has the most number of teams in D2 with 303. D2 has a total of 305 full and reclassifying members. My preferred ratio range is 4.5 - 5.0, that allows for 21% - 23% of the teams in that sport to make the playoffs. The D2 men's lacrosse ratio would be 4.688 with the bracket expanded to 16 and including Flagler College; and the D2 women's lacrosse ratio would be 4.833 with the bracket expanded to 24 and including Flagler College.

D1 ratios
W Basketball - 5.469
W Soccer - 5.250
W Volleyball - 5.219
M Basketball - 5.176
W Tennis - 4.859
Baseball - 4.688
Softball - 4.641
W Ice Hockey - 4.500
M Lacrosse - 4.353
M Soccer - 4.292
Field Hockey - 4.278
W Lacrosse - 4.179
Rowing - 4.000
M Tennis - 3.922
M Ice Hockey - 3.750
W Golf - 3.708
M Golf - 3.691
M Volleyball - 3.286
AVG D1 ratio - 4.403

D2 ratios
W Lacrosse - 7.188
M Lacrosse - 6.167
Football - 5.857
Field Hockey - 5.833
M Soccer - 5.150
W Basketball - 4.734
M Basketball - 4.719
W Soccer - 4.625
Baseball - 4.589
W Volleyball - 4.531
Softball - 4.438
W Tennis - 4.354
W Golf - 4.042
M Tennis - 3.125
M Golf - 2.688
Rowing - 2.500
AVG D2 ratio - 4.659
WhiteCarrera
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by WhiteCarrera »

leeatu, interesting numbers, and now you've got me thinking. First, I appreciate your work, I agree with some of it, not with some of it, and to be honest I'm too tired to check all of it.

Granted basketball skews the number because it makes so much money, and in most sports, the women's number at least matches the men's (perception, Title IX, etc...)

I think some of your numbers are wrong:

Ex. Men's volleyball -- 8 of 47 in the brackets, for a ratio of 5.9 (you had 3.3)
D1 Men's golf -- 30 of 299 in the national championships, 1 per 9.99 teams, but do you count the regionals or not where 90+ teams are invited.

Anyway you look at it though, I think you're generally correct, and I was wrong (or at least outdated) and thinking back to my D3 football days.

Here is the text from the most recent D3 manual:

31.3.1.1 Principles of Establishing Bracket Sizes. In team sports, overall bracket sizes shall be established based on an approximate access ratio of 1:6.5. In golf and tennis, the team portion of the bracket shall be based on an approximate access ratio in the range of 1:7 to 1:7.5 with the specific access ratio to be recommended by the NCAA Division III Men’s and Women’s Golf Committees and NCAA Division III Men’s and Women’s Tennis Committees, respectively, subject to approval by the NCAA Division III Championships Committee. The individual participant access ratio shall be determined according to Championships Committee policy (see Bylaw 31.3.1.1.1 for maximum bracket sizes). The overall team bracket size shall be determined by dividing the total number of active Division III institutions sponsoring the sport by 6.5 or the number specified for golf and tennis, and then adjusted as necessary by the Championships Committee.

And here's what I found in the D2 Manual:

31.01.3 Size of Championships Fields. The size of all NCAA championships fields shall be established by the Championships Committee to provide for efficient management of the events, adequate NCAA championship opportunities relative to the nationwide quality of competition and sound economic administration of the financial resources of the Association and its championships. (See Bylaw 31.3.1 for the criteria to be considered in establishing the size of the championship field.)

Obviously a little more vague and flexible. Maybe we'll get to 16 teams and four regions sooner than I think. I sure hope so!
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leeatu
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by leeatu »

WhiteCarrera wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:50 pm leeatu, interesting numbers, and now you've got me thinking. First, I appreciate your work, I agree with some of it, not with some of it, and to be honest I'm too tired to check all of it.

Granted basketball skews the number because it makes so much money, and in most sports, the women's number at least matches the men's (perception, Title IX, etc...)

I think some of your numbers are wrong:

Ex. Men's volleyball -- 8 of 47 in the brackets, for a ratio of 5.9 (you had 3.3)
D1 Men's golf -- 30 of 299 in the national championships, 1 per 9.99 teams, but do you count the regionals or not where 90+ teams are invited.

Anyway you look at it though, I think you're generally correct, and I was wrong (or at least outdated) and thinking back to my D3 football days.
I used this site to get the number of teams in the sport, https://web3.ncaa.org/directory/.

I found my mistake on the M Volleyball. Using that link, I searched for D1 schools only and neglected to include the D2 schools. After subtracting Urbana and the Puerto Rico schools (I'm not sure they are eligible for postseason in MVB) there are 44 teams. The bracket is 7 teams. Here is the 2019 bracket, https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/volleyball-men/nc/2019. You see the top 6 teams but you don't see the Barton College/Princeton play-in game. It's the same format D1 MLAX has with the play-in game. So that changes the ratio to 6.286 for D1 M Volleyball.

Yes, count all 91 teams selected for the regionals. A team has to be SELECTED for the regionals in order to have a chance to ADVANCE to the championships. Otherwise it would be like only counting the 4 teams that advanced to the Final Four in D1 MLAX to determine the ratio.

I'll work on the calculations for D3. I'm not too familiar with D3 since the only school I support there is Norwich. I am most knowledgeable about D2 because that's the division my school is in. And keep in mind that as the bracket gets larger, the ratio number goes down. If the D1 MB bracket expands to 72 and there are still 352 teams, the ratio drops to 4.889.
WhiteCarrera
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by WhiteCarrera »

How dare you overlook the Puerto Rico volleyball schools?
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leeatu
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Re: Regional Realignment

Post by leeatu »

WhiteCarrera wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:24 am How dare you overlook the Puerto Rico volleyball schools?
I don't know what membership status the PR schools have but I do know they are not eligible for most NCAA postseasons, that's why I don't count them. One of their cross country teams did make the championships in 2016. D2 XC does not have a selection process; all teams, who choose to, run in the regionals with the top teams advancing.

After doing the D3 postseason ratios, I now understand your viewpoint and confusion. D3 Golf does not have a regional tournament like D2 and D1 have. D3 is over 40% larger than D2 which causes the ratios to be so much higher. If D3 had a similar ratio to D2, the basketball brackets would have 98 teams; and if the D2 ratio was similar to D3, those brackets would have only 43 teams.

D3 ratios: sport - teams - PO teams - ratio
W Golf - 244 - 25 - 9.760
M Tennis - 334 - 43 - 7.767
Football - 248 - 32 - 7.750
M Volleyball - 108 - 14 - 7.714
W Tennis - 371 - 49 - 7.571
M Golf - 308 - 42 - 7.333
W Lacrosse - 295 - 42 - 7.024
Field hockey - 168 - 24 - 7.000
M Ice hockey - 84 - 12 - 7.000
M Lacrosse - 250 - 36 - 6.944
W Soccer - 442 - 64 - 6.906
W Basketball - 441 - 64 - 6.891
W Volleyball - 436 - 64 - 6.813
Baseball - 391 - 58 - 6.741
W Ice hockey - 67 - 10 - 6.700
Softball - 414 - 62 - 6.677
M Basketball - 426 - 64 - 6.656
M Soccer - 421 - 64 - 6.578
Rowing - 44 - 8 - 5.500
AVG D3 ratio - 7.122
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