Atlantic Article

[jhu06]

-golf and tennis are viewed by most americans as much more mainstream and non elitist than lacrosse which is still seen by most americans as something like squash, crew etc.

-I used to interview kids for Hopkins-the alumni interview is encouraged but not mandatory and most years none of the 8 kids I interviewed got in. Most of them wanted to be doctors, foreign aid workers, public health folks and I check their linkedins a few years later and they're in 8 year md programs at private colleges. Then you have hopkins lacrosse with a roster about 25 percent bigger than the last one that won a title and filled with people w/program connections and poli sci majors-the bs major at Hopkins and you start to wonder where the real value to a school is in these programs that get spartan attendance at games and don't drive any revenue. Does harvard need 42 ncaa teams mostly stuffed as this article suggests w/trump type kids whose parents are using sports to buy them a way into the school, or would it be better off where state schools are headed w/16 ncaa teams, moving the rest to club/alumni support and freeing up several hundred spots for kids whose academics merit their attendance.

[a fan]

In regards to Terry Foy's comments, it seems abundantly clear he's talking about these programs in the context of their academic standing, not the success of their lacrosse programs (the whole point of this article is parents using athletics to get their kid into their desired academic institution). Whether it was wise for Foy to make those comments publicly is certainly an interesting discussion to have.....

And it's always possible that the journalist took liberties on the quote. Speaking from experience, it's rare these days for a journalist to tape your conversation, and quote you verbatim.

[jhu06]

In regards to Terry Foy's comments, it seems abundantly clear he's talking about these programs in the context of their academic standing, not the success of their lacrosse programs (the whole point of this article is parents using athletics to get their kid into their desired academic institution). Whether it was wise for Foy to make those comments publicly is certainly an interesting discussion to have.....

And it's always possible that the journalist took liberties on the quote. Speaking from experience, it's rare these days for a journalist to tape your conversation, and quote you verbatim.

terry it turns out is a loyola grad. Brutal assault on the alma mater.

[viper]

Seems like an apt location for this.....many of you have probably seen this one before (Rick Reilly, Sports Illustrated)

https://vault.si.com/vault/2006/07/31/the-parent-trap

I went out to get my paper this morning and found my neighbor Dalton instead.

He was slumped on my stoop, looking as though he'd slept under a marching band. His eyes sported five-pound bags, his right hand was bandaged and bloody, and his face was sunk like a bad soufflé.

"My God!"I said. "What happened to you? You look like a 20-car funeral!"

"Youth lacrosse happened to me," he grumbled. "The Competitive Elite Lacrosse League. My little Ashley made one of those 'travel teams.' Pray it never happens to you, dude."

He explained."See, I really never thought Ashley was all that hot at lacrosse, and she's only 14. But when she made this competitive team, all the parents said it was a big honor. They said it's the only way to make your high school varsity, and it's the road to a scholarship, and it looks great on your résumé.

"I'm not even sure Ashley wanted to do it. But all of her friends made it, so she just had to do it. What was I gonna do? Tell my little girl no?

"Next thing you know, I'm writing a check for $1,500. Then it turns out, they practice or play seven days a week on these things. And it's clear across town, so pretty soon I'm standing on the sidelines every day of the week.

"My wife can't do it 'cause she has to take Justin to hockey every day. Why an eight-year-old nearsighted kid needs a 42-game schedule is beyond me. What is he, Wayne Gretzky? Plus there's pylon camp and forecheck camp and backward-skating lessons with his personal coach, Hans.

"So pretty soon I got no life. Family dinners? Forget it. Every meal is in the car--right handed Taco Bell. I almost never see my wife awake. When I do, I have to ask for I.D.

"Then this lunatic lacrosse coach schedules an extra 6 a.m. practice every day. It's like the old bottle-feeding days. I'd be like, 'I got her last time. You get her.'And Denise would moan, 'I had to stay up for Midnight Madness last night. Your turn.' Then, at night Ashley is so tired, we end up doing her dang homework!And we're gettin' C's!

"Anyway,Ashley and I started flying to all these stupid tournaments--Dallas and Baltimore and, my God, Ottawa!--and every one is billed as 'the recruiting event of the year!' And do you know who we see at these tournaments? The same damn girls we used to play in our neighborhood league! Essentially, we're flying across the country to get our ass kicked by the same exact people!

"So I start talking to these girls' parents, and it turns out they don't really want to be there either, but their kids were saying we were going to do it, so they had to!

"But then my wife gets to talking to some other moms at Justin's slap shot workshop, and they say we're crazy if we don't have a 'performance-enhancement specialist' for our kids. So she signs them both up with one. Then she finds out most of these girls have 'recruiting consultants' who make highlight reels of kids and send them to college coaches. I'm like, 'She's 14!' And my wife is like,'You're gonna tell our little girl no?' Then we add a rating-service guy and as ports psychologist and a webmaster.

"Well, what with me working half time and all this dump I'm paying for and all these trips,I had to take out a second mortgage. Denise can't work because she's spending every waking moment in a freezing ice rink, which makes her joints stiffen up.Luckily, Hans knows some New Age massage technique that makes her feel better.

"So now I'm getting no sleep, turning my stomach into a Dumpster and having less sex than a dead monk. But before I can put my foot down, my boss does. He fires me! And as he's firing me, he adds, 'By the way, the average lacrosse scholarship is$1,000, you putz!' So I punch him, and now I think my hand might be broken.

"I stomp out and go find Ashley to say, 'It's over.' And she goes, 'Whatever. I quit today anyway. My sports psychologist says you guys push me too hard.'

"Nice. So I go home to tell Denise, but she's not there. Three days go by. I figure she's at the Elite Competitive Hockey palooza in Cheyenne. Turns out she moved in with Hans. Says she wants to be with someone who 'knows' her. Oh, and she really likes massages.

"So now I get home and somebody changed the locks! Probably the mortgage company, since I'm way behind.

"And do you know what I learned from all this, man? I learned that the most viciously competitive sport in the world is parenting.

"Anyway, what I wanted to ask you is--you wanna buy some lacrosse sticks?

I am so glad to have missed that rat race. A friend of mine is a soccer guy. He has three boys...one played ACC, one played one year A-10 and then quit....the youngest is 13 or 14..... he lives in Fairfield County..... I sent him that Atlantic article and he sent me the following quote: “Many emotions and reactions to this since I know a few families like those represented in the piece. Truely crazy”

He then told me he is headed to England for three weeks. He sent his youngest son over last year for school because they have better soccer (at 40k pounds a year) and when he visits this year, he has to quarantine for two weeks so he said he may as well work out of a hotel in London for three weeks....his oldest son was in Sweden last year and in Greece this year trying to latch onto a team and my buddy is funding him.... he completely lacks self awareness!!

My oldest is 23, had a cup of coffee in D1 before moving to his school's club team to preserve his Academic Scholarship. One of my 19 year olds is currently playing D3 in the Northeast and I am now in club with my 9 year old twins (boy/girl). Yes 9 year olds in club. My oldest played rec until HS when he started on a club team. My 19 year old played rec until he started club in 7th grade. Now club starts in 3rd grade and competitive rec leagues are few and far between. This all happened in the last 15 years. The other trap is that not getting into club on the "ground floor" makes it that much harder to get along the way.

The good news is that I just moved my son to another club so now both are in clubs where they seem to have a very good perspective on the kids at their age with the goals of making it fun while making the kids better players (and people in the case of one of the clubs). No more Dad coaches screaming at 8 years olds, refusing advice/assistance from qualified coaches (my 23 year old, who is now coaching in the MIAA, often came and tried to provide some sanity) because they "know" better and no more weeks with 4 practices and 2-3 games so they can "get better". It becomes pretty clear, pretty quick that more bad practices and bad games don't make for better players - it just makes for ex players.

[flyerfan17]

Once hedge funds get involved in "clubs" you know it's way out of hand and ready to crash...

[Matnum PI]

...moving the rest to club/alumni support and freeing up several hundred spots for kids whose academics merit their attendance.

JHU06, would you say the same about a cello player or whatever? People that fill orchestras etc. within schools.

[harflax]

In regards to Terry Foy's comments, it seems abundantly clear he's talking about these programs in the context of their academic standing, not the success of their lacrosse programs (the whole point of this article is parents using athletics to get their kid into their desired academic institution). Whether it was wise for Foy to make those comments publicly is certainly an interesting discussion to have, but I see no error in anything he said given the context. Academically speaking (at least as far as reputation is concerned), Yale > Georgetown > Loyola, and I really don't think it's debatable.

Talk to coaches in the Patriot League about Loyola. I have had lots of players recruited in that league. One of Loyola's competitors flat out told me they feel Loyola does not belong in their league. They feel Loyola's academic standards for lacrosse players does not match theirs.

[faircornell]

Not to rant about the article, but it brings up people with full sized lighted olympic ice hockey rink in their back yards. You'd need almost an acre of free land to do that properly, as well as some maintenance support work. While I know that there are people in the neighborhoods noted with that amount of property and cash, those motivated to undertake such a project must be limited. The number of people with the space, finances and skilled players to do such work must be miniscule.

[44WeWantMore]

-golf and tennis are viewed by most americans as much more mainstream and non elitist than lacrosse which is still seen by most americans as something like squash, crew etc.

-I used to interview kids for Hopkins-the alumni interview is encouraged but not mandatory and most years none of the 8 kids I interviewed got in. Most of them wanted to be doctors, foreign aid workers, public health folks and I check their linkedins a few years later and they're in 8 year md programs at private colleges. Then you have hopkins lacrosse with a roster about 25 percent bigger than the last one that won a title and filled with people w/program connections and poli sci majors-the bs major at Hopkins and you start to wonder where the real value to a school is in these programs that get spartan attendance at games and don't drive any revenue. Does harvard need 42 ncaa teams mostly stuffed as this article suggests w/trump type kids whose parents are using sports to buy them a way into the school, or would it be better off where state schools are headed w/16 ncaa teams, moving the rest to club/alumni support and freeing up several hundred spots for kids whose academics merit their attendance.

I admit that I am biased as a former DIII athlete, but I am going to disagree here, and it will be unpopular on the DI forum, but the Harvard model is approximately correct, and the Alabama model is absolutely terrible. When Nan" Keohane was announced as president of Duke, she briefly mused that Duke should consider [Amherst / Haverford / Swarthmore / some other DIII school] as its athletic model [1]. I cannot find the exact quote now partly because I cannot remember the model she chose, but mostly because her musing was so brief. But, her initial instincts were correct. An intercollegiate athlete generally builds a stronger bond with his alma mater than a club athlete. And, when the athletes are seen daily in the same classes as their peers, resentment of admissions preference will be reduced. And, of course, with 43 teams of student-athletes, the admissions boost will be much smaller on average than it would be with 16 teams of semi-pro one-and-dones.

[1] She was graduated by Wellesley College, and was president there, and her first post was at Swarthmore.

[Sidelinehorn!]

From Inside Lacrosse here is the UVA 2022 recruiting class:

Manhasset Secondary School - very affluent NYC suburb
5 private school
Ridgefield High School - Fairfield County
Riverside High School in VA - I don't know the school or area

All of the kids played for big clubs - Express, 91, etc

I guess they will round out the roster with the boys from TX and CA.

Check out the 2016 Brown Roster...About 75% of the roster is made up of private school and Fairfield county kids...The rest are from dumps like Garden City and Manhasset etc. Another empty quote from a college coach who plays the game just like everyone else

[viper]

From Inside Lacrosse here is the UVA 2022 recruiting class:

Manhasset Secondary School - very affluent NYC suburb
5 private school
Ridgefield High School - Fairfield County
Riverside High School in VA - I don't know the school or area

All of the kids played for big clubs - Express, 91, etc

I guess they will round out the roster with the boys from TX and CA.

Check out the 2016 Brown Roster...About 75% of the roster is made up of private school and Fairfield county kids...The rest are from dumps like Garden City and Manhasset etc. Another empty quote from a college coach who plays the game just like everyone else

Just like all those coaches who were "against early recruiting" and would give it up ...... when all the other coaches did!

[bearlaxfan]

Brings to mind the attacks against affirmative action which coincidentally never seem to have a problem with legacy admissions.
Interesting to watch HYP and other institutions which are fortunate enough to have need-blind admissions for a few more years to see if the squash/equestrian/fencing/skiing/etc nexus is being used to maintain a bit of 'gentlemens' agreement' for campus society.

[Sidelinehorn!]

From Inside Lacrosse here is the UVA 2022 recruiting class:

Manhasset Secondary School - very affluent NYC suburb
5 private school
Ridgefield High School - Fairfield County
Riverside High School in VA - I don't know the school or area

All of the kids played for big clubs - Express, 91, etc

I guess they will round out the roster with the boys from TX and CA.

Check out the 2016 Brown Roster...About 75% of the roster is made up of private school and Fairfield county kids...The rest are from dumps like Garden City and Manhasset etc. Another empty quote from a college coach who plays the game just like everyone else

Just like all those coaches who were "against early recruiting" and would give it up ...... when all the other coaches did!

Bingo. They allowed the system to run wild because they were able to line their pockets for YEARS. The growth of lacrosse has now put these coaches in a more public spotlight and they are beholden to their institutions and the ideals being set. 10-15 years ago...no one would even think to ask these coaches for their opinion. The question becomes will everyone double down and the landscape gets worse? Or do we see it scale back to a more normal and reasonable level. My money is they double down...follow the money.

[Kismet]

When they lazily adopted the Women's proposal to curb early recruiting they forgot that, like it did with the women beforehand it only made the club owners kings/queens of recruiting and left everyone else out in the cold.

You do get what you wish for in this case.

[laxjuris]

...moving the rest to club/alumni support and freeing up several hundred spots for kids whose academics merit their attendance.

JHU06, would you say the same about a cello player or whatever? People that fill orchestras etc. within schools.

My sense is the kids in the orchestra have academics equal to the rest of the student body. Recruited athletes must surely get a far bigger boost in admissions from their “hook”.

[Matnum PI]

Maybe. But i ask this question theoretically so let's say that the cello-ist has the same grades as the athlete. Should a cello-ist get special considerations? Keep in mind, without the celloist, violinist, etc., the symphony will not be very good.

[jersey shore lax]

When they lazily adopted the Women's proposal to curb early recruiting they forgot that, like it did with the women beforehand it only made the club owners kings/queens of recruiting and left everyone else out in the cold.

You do get what you wish for in this case.

I totally agree with you but I do not hear better solutions. I would think a staged calendar might be a little better, like let 10th graders communicate directly with coaches via e-mail only and then maybe allow on campus visits in the summer before 11th grade so both coaches and players can get to know each other a little before verbal commitments. Unless I am mistaken the way it is now a kid can verbally commit on Sept. 1st of his junior year where technically he has had no contact with the coaches or visited the school (unless on his own without a coach led tour and meeting) and even his HS or Club coach should not have had contact as intermediaries.

[Sidelinehorn!]

When they lazily adopted the Women's proposal to curb early recruiting they forgot that, like it did with the women beforehand it only made the club owners kings/queens of recruiting and left everyone else out in the cold.

You do get what you wish for in this case.

I totally agree with you but I do not hear better solutions. I would think a staged calendar might be a little better, like let 10th graders communicate directly with coaches via e-mail only and then maybe allow on campus visits in the summer before 11th grade so both coaches and players can get to know each other a little before verbal commitments. Unless I am mistaken the way it is now a kid can verbally commit on Sept. 1st of his junior year where technically he has had no contact with the coaches or visited the school (unless on his own without a coach led tour and meeting) and even his HS or Club coach should not have had contact as intermediaries.

That is what they are hoping to have with the rule...but the reality is the families of top level prospects already have a good idea about their suitors before Sept. 1st of their junior year. This rule change only gave more power to club directors and programs. A good club director is always selling his guys, and the college coaches all have found ways around the rules to communicate their interests. If you don't think the club system has it's talons in the system...just go and see how All-Star games are picked at tournaments. Sending out an All-Star "suggestion" form to club programs before the tournament begins is an easy way to pick an All-Star Team.

But I'm sure YOUR tournament does it differently

[jhu06]

When they lazily adopted the Women's proposal to curb early recruiting they forgot that, like it did with the women beforehand it only made the club owners kings/queens of recruiting and left everyone else out in the cold.

You do get what you wish for in this case.

I totally agree with you but I do not hear better solutions. I would think a staged calendar might be a little better, like let 10th graders communicate directly with coaches via e-mail only and then maybe allow on campus visits in the summer before 11th grade so both coaches and players can get to know each other a little before verbal commitments. Unless I am mistaken the way it is now a kid can verbally commit on Sept. 1st of his junior year where technically he has had no contact with the coaches or visited the school (unless on his own without a coach led tour and meeting) and even his HS or Club coach should not have had contact as intermediaries.

For me, my family and everyone I knew growing up there was only one way to get into a great school and that was through working my a-- off in school. All this club stuff, picking random sports to get tutored in, just says more negative things about those communities, their values, what they're trying to teach their kids about how life works. It catches up to you later in life eventually.

[Typical Lax Dad]

When they lazily adopted the Women's proposal to curb early recruiting they forgot that, like it did with the women beforehand it only made the club owners kings/queens of recruiting and left everyone else out in the cold.

You do get what you wish for in this case.

I totally agree with you but I do not hear better solutions. I would think a staged calendar might be a little better, like let 10th graders communicate directly with coaches via e-mail only and then maybe allow on campus visits in the summer before 11th grade so both coaches and players can get to know each other a little before verbal commitments. Unless I am mistaken the way it is now a kid can verbally commit on Sept. 1st of his junior year where technically he has had no contact with the coaches or visited the school (unless on his own without a coach led tour and meeting) and even his HS or Club coach should not have had contact as intermediaries.

For me, my family and everyone I knew growing up there was only one way to get into a great school and that was through working my a-- off in school. All this club stuff, picking random sports to get tutored in, just says more negative things about those communities, their values, what they're trying to teach their kids about how life works. It catches up to you later in life eventually.

Actually in the good old days headmasters from exclusive private schools would call up the admissions folks at highly selective colleges and tell them “we are sending you 5 boys”..... Not even sure an application was filled out.