Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

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bearlaxfan
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by bearlaxfan »

Can Opener wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:21 am
Wheels wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:35 am
flyerfan17 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:09 pm Most people who gamble don't need to go to the game to do it, gambling will never put people in seats at lacrosse games
Not if the betting occurs in a geo-fenced stadium so that the wagers can only be placed in the stadium. The technology is already there to do this. The apps exist. Some states already allow online/app-based gambling. The gambling will add to the "entertainment" of going to a live game. This will all happen and probably in the not too distant future. It won't be for everyone, but it will probably increase attendance because it's something you won't be able to get from home while watching TV or streaming on your computer.

Again, I'd be surprised if Rabill and his crew weren't already thinking about this. They have Silicon Valley-types already backing the PLL venture. These people know the tech, know the market, and know the legalities.
Cool idea, but I’ve got a better one. What does every family sitting in the stands need? Yup, clothes washer/dryer sets. Those things last about 5 years which means that for every 1,000 people in the stands, 200 will be buying a new washer/dryer that year. With an average purchase price of $1,000 per set, that’s $200,000 in revenue per game. Biggest no brainer ever, right? Oh no, wait. That’s actually a terrible idea because they’ll probably buy them at WalMart. But at least it’s a better idea than in stadium gambling on lacrosse!

You forgot a pony!
Wheels
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by Wheels »

Can Opener wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:21 am
Wheels wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:35 am
flyerfan17 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:09 pm Most people who gamble don't need to go to the game to do it, gambling will never put people in seats at lacrosse games
Not if the betting occurs in a geo-fenced stadium so that the wagers can only be placed in the stadium. The technology is already there to do this. The apps exist. Some states already allow online/app-based gambling. The gambling will add to the "entertainment" of going to a live game. This will all happen and probably in the not too distant future. It won't be for everyone, but it will probably increase attendance because it's something you won't be able to get from home while watching TV or streaming on your computer.

Again, I'd be surprised if Rabill and his crew weren't already thinking about this. They have Silicon Valley-types already backing the PLL venture. These people know the tech, know the market, and know the legalities.
Cool idea, but I’ve got a better one. What does every family sitting in the stands need? Yup, clothes washer/dryer sets. Those things last about 5 years which means that for every 1,000 people in the stands, 200 will be buying a new washer/dryer that year. With an average purchase price of $1,000 per set, that’s $200,000 in revenue per game. Biggest no brainer ever, right? Oh no, wait. That’s actually a terrible idea because they’ll probably buy them at WalMart. But at least it’s a better idea than in stadium gambling on lacrosse!
Wow. You got me there. I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks for straightening me out with you well reasoned and well grounded response. Have you thought of running for elected office?
Laxgunea
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by Laxgunea »

Lot of interesting ideas in this thread. I don't think NFL, NBA, MLB, or NHL are the competition or models for success. There are so many other niche sports already trying to fill the gaps. Some of those other sports have much bigger global participation ... like the MLS or even HSBC Rugby 7s (which is already linked to Super Rugby, the Rugby World Cup, and Olympics). Never mind the truly niche sports like sailing, bass fishing, or beach volleyball. The PLLs Hope's should be with the existing lacrosse base, and so long as that is split it can only grow so much. I think this whole thread has to be read in consideration of what is written in the Has the lacrosse bubble burst thread. PLL will only grow as lacrosse grows. Honestly not sure if innovations like the shortened field or the new hex ball will help or hurt that. I do like the creativity and effort though.
As for in stadium gambling .... might just make it even more niche, like Jai Alai or greyhound racing. I went to a PLL game and it was clearly a family friendly event largely marketed to kids under 20 and parents. Add gambling and you kill that base.
keno in reno
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by keno in reno »

Their creativity and effort is great. But it will take a very long time (like 50 years or more) to gain the critical mass needed for big success. Look at soccer in America, a game that is probably 1,000x more prevalent than lacrosse. It's been 40 years since Pele was in NY and the pro league is still niche. The trend toward esports and silly, made for tv competitions like ninja warrior don't help either.
DMac
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by DMac »

I just recently discovered the ninja warrior competition (I know, I'm miles behind the pack) which includes Wonder Woman's stunt double (she's a beast) and I must say it is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxmPoGREKVY
It's also very relatable and easy to understand for the new viewer, unlike lacrosse. I watched two more pro games yesterday, one PLL and one MLL, both games went to OT and as much as I hate to say it, the thrill just isn't there like it is with the college game. Great players and all of that, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's some element missing there even for hard core lacrosse nuts.
Am watching the LLWS, if the MLL or PLL had a game on, I wouldn't switch the channel to watch....uh oh, bases loaded, blast in the gap to the wall drives in three (batter gets a double), Va 3, Minn 0 (Maddy's team's gotta muster up a comeback here), bottom of the first.
Aint lookin' like there's going to be any joy in Minnville tonight, Va up 8-zip bottom of 3rd. Maddy pulled from second to come in and pitch (comes off the mound on a little dribbler to throw the runner out at home...force out). Gets it over the plate, but I'd like to step in the box as an LLer vs her...throws up some fat HR balls. She's a good little ball player though.
Well, Maddy back to second and on the verge of tears after getting hammered on the mound. Absolutely hate it when coaches ask kids who have a little talent to do too much, that's a real good way to destroy their confidence and ruin them.
11-zip now....final.
Puck Swami
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by Puck Swami »

PLL needs to look to MLS for a yardstick - not the NBA or NFL. It took MLS about 20 years to become a 20,000 average attendance game league, paying wages decent enough for most players to make an honest full-time living and allowing them to practice as a team each day. MLS is not a dominant TV property, but it doesn't really need to be - it's relevant enough in most of the markets where it is played, challenging the NBA and NHL for game day attendence in many markets, and far larger than that in a few. Playing in the summer allows MLS not to get lost in the fall shuffle, where too many things are going on.

I think the lacrosse can get there in about 10 years, given the innovations in coverage and social media that they are leveraging, but some things will need to eventually change. I think the barnstorming model will need to settle into something more permanent to build the geographic bond beyond just star players. I like the idea of eventually consolidating pro lacrosse around 10-12 hub cities and merging to share players and overhead with MLL/NLL teams to create a year round sport presence, indoor and outdoor. There is really not enough interest to sustain 3 pro lax leagues, but there is plenty of interest and capital to support a full time, year round condensed model.
laxxygilmore
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by laxxygilmore »

laxxygilmore wrote » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:23 pm

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/icehockeyhistory.html

Lots of interesting insight indeed. So, if the past development history of professional hockey since ~1904 is potential prologue / road map to the development of professional lacrosse since ~1999, looks like pro lax will need another 70-90 years to get to the point whereby professional players can quit their day jobs and make a decent to lucrative living as full time pro-laxers. And if that becomes so, it may also mean all current pro-laxers, and pro-laxers for the next 40+ years, will have missed that boat and will need to continue to support themselves and their families like the rest of us as coaches; teachers; military officers; bankers; lawyers; commercial real estate brokers; investment advisors; tech geeks; doctors; restauranteurs; bartenders; ocean lifeguards and Jiffy Lube franchise owners, etc., etc., etc. If that 70-90 years pot of gold horizon is accurate, the pro-laxers who will benefit the most financially won't come into this world until after 2070. Something for our great grand kids to look forward to...along with summer lax travel team seasons costing >$50K / summer by then. By then, will it be The Steinfeld Trophy or The Alibaba Cup? :shock:
keno in reno wrote » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:45 am
Their creativity and effort is great. But it will take a very long time (like 50 years or more) to gain the critical mass needed for big success. Look at soccer in America, a game that is probably 1,000x more prevalent than lacrosse. It's been 40 years since Pele was in NY and the pro league is still niche. The trend toward esports and silly, made for tv competitions like ninja warrior don't help either.
+1 keno...exactly correct across the board...and todays pro-laxers will be in the "Old Timers" games by then cranking 2pt shots @ 25mph. :shock:
Last edited by laxxygilmore on Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by laxxygilmore »

Wheels wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:35 am
flyerfan17 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:09 pm Most people who gamble don't need to go to the game to do it, gambling will never put people in seats at lacrosse games
Not if the betting occurs in a geo-fenced stadium so that the wagers can only be placed in the stadium. The technology is already there to do this. The apps exist. Some states already allow online/app-based gambling. The gambling will add to the "entertainment" of going to a live game. This will all happen and probably in the not too distant future. It won't be for everyone, but it will probably increase attendance because it's something you won't be able to get from home while watching TV or streaming on your computer.

Again, I'd be surprised if Rabill and his crew weren't already thinking about this. They have Silicon Valley-types already backing the PLL venture. These people know the tech, know the market, and know the legalities.
Good points...So no OTB like betting parlors for pro-lax to "benefit" our neighborhoods? :o

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Last edited by laxxygilmore on Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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youthathletics
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by youthathletics »

DMac wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:29 am I watched two more pro games yesterday, one PLL and one MLL, both games went to OT and as much as I hate to say it, the thrill just isn't there like it is with the college game. Great players and all of that, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's some element missing there even for hard core lacrosse nuts.
DMac - I have the same exact feeling every single time I watch a game on TV or attend in person, I have tried to put my finger on it for quite some time and simply have resolved that I just need to sit back and enjoy the game.

Couple of spit-balling thoughts on why:
  • Our pro game is simply just too small and we are pre-programmed to have an allegiance to a home/favorite team for one reason or another. Which is why the college game is just that much more appealing.

  • The fast pace and shot clock means there is almost always going to be another opportunity to even the score. That should make the intensity higher, but for some reason, in pro-lacrosse, when the game is under a couple minutes and the score is close, I begin to think....who cares. In the PLL all the OT and 1 goal games just seems to say....there really is not much difference in each team, putting less emphasis on schematic and coaching. It's like you really only need to watch the last two minutes and you feel like you saw the entire game.
  • I am much more a fan of the MLL. The game day experience in a college stadium, tailgating with locals, is just more appealing to me. I truly wish Jake and Paul would/could have worked something out to make the one league more robust.
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DU-fan
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by DU-fan »

This is a great discussion. I think the PLL is doing a great job with quality, broadcasting, excellent plays, exciting and talented players, promotions, smaller stadiums, etc.

But, I don't care who wins or losses. Even die heart lacrosse fans, like me, will lose interest. I paid $40 for NBC Gold to support the sport, but have no interest to go back and watch old games.

There is zero drama on who makes the top four playoff teams. I can't decide who I should root for and who I don't like. I guess I like the Atlas because they have some Denver players. But, they don't win that much and i don't have enough passion to argue against anything. I have zero opinion if John Paul is the right coach, player chemistry, etc.

Maybe fantasy lacrosse would help, but you need more than that for the average fan.

If you don't have a team to cheer for and a rival you want to beat, it makes it really hard in any sport. Fundamentally, this is the first part that has to change in the PLL. College lacrosse struggles to get TV ratings, but most fans are passionate about their favorite team(s) and their team's rivalries. You have conferences, etc.

Lacrosse is too small to support two pro leagues! Football, basketball, and baseball can't support it either. Unless the PLL and MLL merge, it will hurt both leagues and not help the sport and could potentially kill pro lacrosse all together.

Scheduling matters. I like that the PLL started after the NCAA tournament. The MLL starting before the end of NCAA lacrosse season and overlapping with the NLL is strange. But, the PLL season may go too long and be lost competing with the football season.
Last edited by DU-fan on Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by DU-fan »

Puck Swami wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:17 pm PLL needs to look to MLS for a yardstick - not the NBA or NFL. It took MLS about 20 years to become a 20,000 average attendance game league, paying wages decent enough for most players to make an honest full-time living and allowing them to practice as a team each day. MLS is not a dominant TV property, but it doesn't really need to be - it's relevant enough in most of the markets where it is played, challenging the NBA and NHL for game day attendence in many markets, and far larger than that in a few. Playing in the summer allows MLS not to get lost in the fall shuffle, where too many things are going on.

I think the lacrosse can get there in about 10 years, given the innovations in coverage and social media that they are leveraging, but some things will need to eventually change. I think the barnstorming model will need to settle into something more permanent to build the geographic bond beyond just star players. I like the idea of eventually consolidating pro lacrosse around 10-12 hub cities and merging to share players and overhead with MLL/NLL teams to create a year round sport presence, indoor and outdoor. There is really not enough interest to sustain 3 pro lax leagues, but there is plenty of interest and capital to support a full time, year round condensed model.
Puck - Great point on the PLL learning from the MLS.

This article has some really good points on MLS growth vs. the decline of other traditional sports with lots of data and graphs :D :
https://insights.digitalmediasolutions. ... popularity

The crazy part is that lacrosse is 2-4X more exciting to watch than soccer.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by DMac »

youthatletics wrote
have resolved that I just need to sit back and enjoy the game.
Yes, was thinking exactly that while I was watching those games. The PLL is a bit of a different game. Maybe too strong to say a box, field, hybrid but it leans in that direction. Shorter clock and smaller field is what makes it feel rushed, I think. Will that attract the casual fan? I prefer the pace of the college game, seems as if that game offers a little more variety. The eighty second clock still allows for different kinds of possessions and the twenty seconds to get it across the line keeps the pace of the game moving nicely (to me).
Feshmen are always coming and seniors are always going in the college game too. Watching the growing process is an element you don't get with the pros either, we've seen these guys play for a few years already, and some of them hang around for a little too long. It's all good though.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by DU-fan »

DMac wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:13 pm
youthatletics wrote
have resolved that I just need to sit back and enjoy the game.
Yes, was thinking exactly that while I was watching those games. T
I agree that enjoying the game is probably the most important part. But, I still think the PLL needs help promote reasons why people root for a particular team.

The Whipsnakes are a Maryland centric team with Rambo, Chanenchuk, Drenner.

I like the Redwoods logo the best :D But, are they a Notre Dame, Syracuse, or Rutgers team?

One thing the NFL does well is try to keep a connection to where the players went to college with player intros or the draft.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by youthathletics »

DU-fan wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:30 pm
DMac wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:13 pm
youthatletics wrote
have resolved that I just need to sit back and enjoy the game.
Yes, was thinking exactly that while I was watching those games. T
I agree that enjoying the game is probably the most important part. But, I still think the PLL needs help promote reasons why people root for a particular team.

The Whipsnakes are a Maryland centric team with Rambo, Chanenchuk, Drenner.

I like the Redwoods logo the best :D But, are they a Notre Dame, Syracuse, or Rutgers team?

One thing the NFL does well is try to keep a connection to where the players went to college with player intros or the draft.
I also 'wonder' if it would/could be in the MLL/PLL's best interest to run parallel with the College lax Game. like every other major sport. College lax on Saturday and Pro-Lax on Sunday. This puts college games and pro games in the same stadium on the same weekend for many venues. The only rub... the NLL starts around the first week of May, for those cross-over players.

Not quite sure why pro lacrosse chose Summer, other than no other major sport is going on other than baseball.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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laxxygilmore
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by laxxygilmore »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:00 pm Not quite sure why pro lacrosse chose Summer, other than no other major sport is going on other than baseball.
IMHO, since the pro ranks are essentially still in the early development phases of the process with relatively meager upside financial benefit compared to their real day jobs / career earning capabilities, it could be that summer time offers them maximum scheduling flexibility to better meet the demands of both until the full-time pro players' career path / compensation packages are robust enough and sustainable on their own.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by laxxygilmore »

DU-fan wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:30 pm
DMac wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:13 pm
youthatletics wrote
have resolved that I just need to sit back and enjoy the game.
Yes, was thinking exactly that while I was watching those games. T
I agree that enjoying the game is probably the most important part. But, I still think the PLL needs help promote reasons why people root for a particular team.

The Whipsnakes are a Maryland centric team with Rambo, Chanenchuk, Drenner.

I like the Redwoods logo the best :D But, are they a Notre Dame, Syracuse, or Rutgers team?

One thing the NFL does well is try to keep a connection to where the players went to college with player intros or the draft.
IMHO, 17-4 blow-outs are likely not enjoyable for most fans, no matter what team you may be rooting for - including the +-175 fans at the stadium.
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youthathletics
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by youthathletics »

laxxygilmore wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:00 pm Not quite sure why pro lacrosse chose Summer, other than no other major sport is going on other than baseball.
IMHO, since the pro ranks are essentially still in the early development phases of the process with relatively meager upside financial benefit compared to their real day jobs / career earning capabilities, it could be that summer time offers them maximum scheduling flexibility to better meet the demands of both until the full-time pro players' career path / compensation packages are robust enough and sustainable on their own.
Fair point. My logical argument was to follow the college model for hoops, football, and hockey. Maybe they chose summer originally because nothing else was really going on and, to your point, schedule flexibility and stadium access was likely not a concern.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:38 pm
laxxygilmore wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:00 pm Not quite sure why pro lacrosse chose Summer, other than no other major sport is going on other than baseball.
IMHO, since the pro ranks are essentially still in the early development phases of the process with relatively meager upside financial benefit compared to their real day jobs / career earning capabilities, it could be that summer time offers them maximum scheduling flexibility to better meet the demands of both until the full-time pro players' career path / compensation packages are robust enough and sustainable on their own.
Fair point. My logical argument was to follow the college model for hoops, football, and hockey. Maybe they chose summer originally because nothing else was really going on and, to your point, schedule flexibility and stadium access was likely not a concern.
I have always favored pro lacrosse being in the Spring. The summer is hard. Many of the players in the PLL are full time lacrosse players. This is more so than the historical MLL. NLL/PLL and camps / clinics provides a decent source of income for a chunk of players. A player can live off of it.
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus »

If it’s a perpetuation of bro culture, ick.
laxxygilmore
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Re: Off-Topic- Will PLL Make It Big And Draw Great Crowds For Years?

Post by laxxygilmore »

WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:47 am If it’s a perpetuation of bro culture, ick.
Agreed, WOMBAT. +1 … better to be "brah-less" indeed.

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