Tweak the College Rules

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PicLax
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by PicLax »

Three rules I’d change.
1. 80 second reset only on possession turnovers necessitating a clear from defensive end. Offensive end resets only 60 seconds.
2. Eliminate dive. Fun to watch, but way to hard to officiate. Only a matter of time before some goalie seriously hurt.
3. Eliminate FOGOs from being able to win their own ground ball. They can only attempt to gain possession after the ball has been touched by some other player from his or opposing team, excluding opposing FOGO. This will make face-offs much more of a 3 person team effort, and preclude a dominant face off specialist from disproportionally controlling the game.
xxxxxxx
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by xxxxxxx »

I have heard some crazy Face Off suggestions but this one is the strangest. So the guy pulls the ball out then needs to stand there until someone else touches it? When in the history of sport has someone not been able to go for a ball in play?

The face offs are fine.
River Donkey
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by River Donkey »

RumorMill wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:45 am No disrespect to the women's game or players in any way, shape or form... but referencing their game and/or rules as it applies to the men's game is extremely disconcerting.

Regarding "withholding", there is a withholding penalty for the fogo if he actually "withholds" the ball. They are given a fraction of time to find an exit. They are not allowed to "withhold" the ball waiting for an open winger or a "better" exit.
As soon as the ball is pinched in a stick, no matter how long, it is withholding. Sorry.
River Donkey
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by River Donkey »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:00 am
xxxxxxx wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:54 am After watching a ton of lacrosse games I have a theory that the two most important stats in the game are save percentage and shooting percentage. If you look at most box scores the team that shoots it better almost always wins, and the best way to keep a team from shooting well is a great goalie. Face offs matter but with the shot clock they matter a lot less, and can be offset with great shooting and goaltending.
I agree. A great FOGO is a luxury but an opposing team can over come it but it is better to have one. I don't like the impact that the equipment changes have had on the face-off. That is what is driving the tweaking. Disallow the withholding and it will clean it up and make it more fan friendly. You don't see the women in a scrum like that.
I couldn’t agree more. For me, the first pinch I saw was in 1996. That same guy has made quite living teaching what I always believed to be illegal. AT toed the line better then anyone with this. Bottom line- pinching is withholding.
NElaxtalent
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by NElaxtalent »

xxxxxxx wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:30 pm When in the history of sport has someone not been able to go for a ball in play?

The face offs are fine.
Basketball tip = lacrosse FO. Guy jumping the tip cannot be the 1st to possess it.

FO are not fine to many people. The pinch IS withholding. The back of the crosse was never intended to carry, withhold or control the ball. The moto-grip and plastic-tong heads have virtually eliminated wing play involvement & strategy. So 90% of FOs are now a 1v1 match-up (which isn't the historical importance, nor very indicative of a TEAM game).

Imagine if after EVERY single TD, the NFL had a 1v1 wrestling match of "specialists" to determine which team gained possession.
xxxxxxx
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by xxxxxxx »

NElaxtalent wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:33 am
xxxxxxx wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:30 pm When in the history of sport has someone not been able to go for a ball in play?

The face offs are fine.
Basketball tip = lacrosse FO. Guy jumping the tip cannot be the 1st to possess it.

FO are not fine to many people. The pinch IS withholding. The back of the crosse was never intended to carry, withhold or control the ball. The moto-grip and plastic-tong heads have virtually eliminated wing play involvement & strategy. So 90% of FOs are now a 1v1 match-up (which isn't the historical importance, nor very indicative of a TEAM game).

Imagine if after EVERY single TD, the NFL had a 1v1 wrestling match of "specialists" to determine which team gained possession.
Actually the NFL has a specialist after EVERY TD, go on the field and kick an extra point, then that specialist kicks off to the other team. He has options of kicking deep, or onsides. Pretty specialized in my opinion. The pinch is not with holding and the rules state the player must release immediately, if he doesn't the ref awards the ball to the other team. If you carry the ball in the back of the stick, same thing, the other team gets the ball It's no more with holding than a goalie clamping a ball and pulling it back into his crease. Neither are against the rules. Plenty of Team sports have individual matchups: Pitchers/Batters, Shooters/Goalies, and almost ever other team sport is filled with them. In football every player on the field has an individual match up they are responsible for. Wing play is an critical part of the face off, just look at stats. Most of the time a face off man will have half of the ground ball vs wins, meaning his wings pick up the ball Lacrosse is in great shape, the rules are fine, I think the PLL games are awesome, the NCAA's were great. Leave the rules alone and if you want the ball every time your opponent scores play basketball.
wgdsr
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by wgdsr »

NElaxtalent wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:33 am
xxxxxxx wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:30 pm When in the history of sport has someone not been able to go for a ball in play?

The face offs are fine.
Basketball tip = lacrosse FO. Guy jumping the tip cannot be the 1st to possess it.
FO are not fine to many people. The pinch IS withholding. The back of the crosse was never intended to carry, withhold or control the ball. The moto-grip and plastic-tong heads have virtually eliminated wing play involvement & strategy. So 90% of FOs are now a 1v1 match-up (which isn't the historical importance, nor very indicative of a TEAM game).

Imagine if after EVERY single TD, the NFL had a 1v1 wrestling match of "specialists" to determine which team gained possession.
nowhere close to 90% of faceoffs in college lacrosse are 1 v 1 matchups only. i'd be surprised if the number approached 1/3. and even then, you have a disadvantaged player (warped stick/typically not a shooting or 1 v 1 specialist...) with the ball and you can strategize if you so wish to get some of those back. if you really want to coach for this, you can. many wings don't know where to be. most don't know where the ball is going to be coming out. many don't go into an all out sprint to get in there. some don't know how to play gbs great. often the 2 wings don't coordinate their spacing throughout. or take angles on an opponent that picks up the ball. close d often let their attackmen be an easy outlet when the goal isn't being threatened.
i have said this before --- what is the issue (for anyone that has one) that cannot be solved by bringing the wings in 5 yards?
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HooDat
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HooDat »

DMac wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:47 pmIf we were still using wooden sticks would we see the moto grip or the pinch and pop? Sticks should not be able to be manipulated so as to be able to pick the ball up as you would with tongs, it's as much against the essense of the game as holding the stick against your chest or thumbing the ball, the ball should always be free in your stick with no exceptions.
The ONLY rule change worth making (I am on the record as being a curmudgeon*) is the sticks. Fix the sticks and every single thing we ALL complain about goes away....

straight (stiff) sidewalls, and no off-set. Period

face-offs go back to normal

play will (continue to*) get more dynamic as the importance of ball movement and passing grows and the double team bull-dodge becomes obsolete

might even see the quick stick become a regular part of the game again


* ok - so I was wrong about the shot clock. It was a good change
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
smoova
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by smoova »

HooDat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:30 am The ONLY rule change worth making (I am on the record as being a curmudgeon*) is the sticks. Fix the sticks and every single thing we ALL complain about goes away....
This is absolutely true. Do you think that, if the NCAA/NFHS/USL made offset and pinched sidewalls illegal, we would see legal challenges from manufaturers ala Ping and the USGA's prohibition on square grooves?
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HooDat
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HooDat »

smoova wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:35 am
HooDat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:30 am The ONLY rule change worth making (I am on the record as being a curmudgeon*) is the sticks. Fix the sticks and every single thing we ALL complain about goes away....
This is absolutely true. Do you think that, if the NCAA/NFHS/USL made offset and pinched sidewalls illegal, we would see legal challenges from manufaturers ala Ping and the USGA's prohibition on square grooves?
That has been not only the ongoing assumption, but I believe it actually happened in the not so distant past
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
smoova
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by smoova »

HooDat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:37 am
smoova wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:35 am
HooDat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:30 am The ONLY rule change worth making (I am on the record as being a curmudgeon*) is the sticks. Fix the sticks and every single thing we ALL complain about goes away....
This is absolutely true. Do you think that, if the NCAA/NFHS/USL made offset and pinched sidewalls illegal, we would see legal challenges from manufaturers ala Ping and the USGA's prohibition on square grooves?
That has been not only the ongoing assumption, but I believe it actually happened in the not so distant past
In that case, I doubt we'll ever seen those those changes, but will continue to suffer the parade of rules attempting to treat the symptoms rather than the cause.
palaxoff
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by palaxoff »

HooDat and smoova what exactly do you envision this utopia of lacrosse would look like ? What would going back to an old spec of a lacrosse head improve exactly? How far back would you go for the perfect spec stick in your opinion, Brand and Model would be helpful.

I don't think you would have to worry about manufacturers. I'd think the coaches wouldn't be in favor of it or we'd already be hearing about it. High School and College are playing with the new spec wide stick in the middle and a major restrictions of the string seem to have helped. I think you'd have a player revolt since they spent the last nearly 20 years playing with the offset and different side walls. I think you'd see a big drop in number of new players because the skill needed to keep the ball in the stick would be frustrating.

I have come to realize technology is always going to impact sports, my game is not the same of my sons and I'd bet his sons will be different. Overall I'd say id rather watch my Son's version them mine in early 80s.
River Donkey
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by River Donkey »

HooDat wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:30 am
DMac wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:47 pmIf we were still using wooden sticks would we see the moto grip or the pinch and pop? Sticks should not be able to be manipulated so as to be able to pick the ball up as you would with tongs, it's as much against the essense of the game as holding the stick against your chest or thumbing the ball, the ball should always be free in your stick with no exceptions.
The ONLY rule change worth making (I am on the record as being a curmudgeon*) is the sticks. Fix the sticks and every single thing we ALL complain about goes away....

straight (stiff) sidewalls, and no off-set. Period

face-offs go back to normal

play will (continue to*) get more dynamic as the importance of ball movement and passing grows and the double team bull-dodge becomes obsolete

might even see the quick stick become a regular part of the game again


* ok - so I was wrong about the shot clock. It was a good change
This could be a good start.
DMac
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by DMac »

palaxoff wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:37 pm HooDat and smoova what exactly do you envision this utopia of lacrosse would look like ? What would going back to an old spec of a lacrosse head improve exactly? How far back would you go for the perfect spec stick in your opinion, Brand and Model would be helpful.

I don't think you would have to worry about manufacturers. I'd think the coaches wouldn't be in favor of it or we'd already be hearing about it. High School and College are playing with the new spec wide stick in the middle and a major restrictions of the string seem to have helped. I think you'd have a player revolt since they spent the last nearly 20 years playing with the offset and different side walls. I think you'd see a big drop in number of new players because the skill needed to keep the ball in the stick would be frustrating.
Actually, you do have to worry about the manufacturers as they're the ones who more dictate how the game is played than coaches do. All this stuff about the sticks was brought up and the maufacturers kicked and screamed and cried poverty if they had to change their molds and redisgn the sticks....they won, and we now have their sticks and I highly doubt we'll see any changes to that. To answer your above question, the sticks from the 80s (or Gait era) never needed to be "improved" one little tiny bit. The Gaits brought a different mentality to the game and they were able to do some pretty incredible stuff with those sticks, which didn't have bags and sick hold. The "new" sticks just made it easier for everyone to be able to do what the Gaits did, not because they were as talented, but because the sticks did/do the work for them. That's all fine and dandy unless you're a D man, as you're no longer playing on a level field, there's an imbalance and the advantage goes to the O (wonder why cross checking is rarely called anymore?) in a real big way (had to bring in a shot clock to give them any sense of urgency at all). The sticks (and I'd bet t'smell is right with the moto grip too) are what causes the "problems" with the face off...they plain and simply should not be able to be manipulated so as to pick the ball up in a gravity defying way. There is no room for discussion there as it goes against the essence of the game. I don't know if you watch any wlax but if not, tune in and watch some. The motion of the sticks (passing, catching, cradling) is what lacrosse sticks were intended to do, not what the perverted mlax sticks do. Sure, lacrosse is still a great game and this is the typical off season type discussion, but I much prefer sticks that don't do the bulk of the work for a player. I don't buy for one second that kids wouldn't pick up a stick if it didn't have a bag and sick hold, it's the beauty of the game that attracts people to it. As I see things, it was the early 60s when lacrosse started reaching the unwashed masses and more and more people began playing it, and that's before anyone ever saw anything other than a wooden stick. I thought the sticks ranked among the coolest things on the face of the earth, and it just is not as hard as a lot of folks make it out to be to learn how to handle one. If it were, you couldn't get any girls to play the game as their sticks are a whole lot closer (I believe they're pretty close to the 80s mlax sticks and the girl's have mastered them) to what the old wooden sticks were (regarding no sick hold or bag), I'd love to see the wlaxer's sticks become the universal sticks for lacrosse....not that I think there's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening but I'd enjoy all the whining and crying coming from the maxers if that were to happen. "I can't get knocked down, roll over a couple of times, and keep the ball in my stick anymore, coach. What's the deal here???"
Coincidentally, I took my wooden box stick over to the nearby school this past Sunday and threw the ball against the wall for a little while. Works like a champ and that's the kind of pocket the game should be played with.

I have come to realize technology is always going to impact sports, my game is not the same of my sons and I'd bet his sons will be different. Overall I'd say id rather watch my Son's version them mine in early 80s.
pcowlax
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by pcowlax »

Don't disagree with any of this but it is pure offseason bloviating. They are never going to "deescalate" the stick technology. This is like pining for wood or aluminum tennis rackets. Absolutely the move to graphite and ceramic changed tennis but it made it easier for lesser players to play well. That is what manufacturers care about. Same with golf tech, the new balls and stick have rendered obsolete many historic courses. However, they make it easier for hackers to fly it 300 yards, thus increasing the popularity of the game. Equipment rules aren't driven by the performance of the best players. They don't make money selling lax sticks to Pat Spencer, they make it by selling them to 10s of thousands of lesser players. If tricking out the sticks makes it easier for those others to imitate great players and not get frustrated dropping the ball, then there you go. From the manufacturers perspective, as for the D, they got titanium shafts and they will have to pocket that and be happy. The only instance I can think of in the history of sports where some new innovation that made the game easier was subsequently banned because it was distorting the game was the crazy full body swim suits they had in the Olympics 10 or 12 years ago. You are going to have to pry offsets out of their cold, dead hands.
smoova
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by smoova »

palaxoff wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:37 pm HooDat and smoova what exactly do you envision this utopia of lacrosse would look like ? What would going back to an old spec of a lacrosse head improve exactly? How far back would you go for the perfect spec stick in your opinion, Brand and Model would be helpful.

I don't think you would have to worry about manufacturers. I'd think the coaches wouldn't be in favor of it or we'd already be hearing about it. High School and College are playing with the new spec wide stick in the middle and a major restrictions of the string seem to have helped. I think you'd have a player revolt since they spent the last nearly 20 years playing with the offset and different side walls. I think you'd see a big drop in number of new players because the skill needed to keep the ball in the stick would be frustrating.

I have come to realize technology is always going to impact sports, my game is not the same of my sons and I'd bet his sons will be different. Overall I'd say id rather watch my Son's version them mine in early 80s.
STX Sam or the Brine Superlite would be fine.

Eliminating offset/pinch would diminish ball security, eliminating the need for the host of recently-promulgated rules regarding safety and pace-of-play since it would no longer be necessary to utilize the "wink wink" crosscheck hold or to hack off a dodger's arm in order to dislodge the ball.

Of course the coaches would oppose this change - I don't expect the same guys who were desperately recruiting 8th graders a couple years ago to be looking out for the integrity of the game.

I disagree regarding new players. I've spent the last decade helping run a nascent youth organization and catching/throwing is, by far, the largest skill barrier for new players. That would be unchanged by eliminating offset/pinch.

Similarly, I'm also not convinced the current players would either "revolt" or leave the game because they could no longer toe drag their way to the goal with impunity. There'd be grumblings, like there are with any rule change, and players would adapt. Heck, I'd wager that many would openly welcome proper enforcement of long-standing rules.

And, yes, this is absolutely "pure offseason bloviating."
DMac
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by DMac »

pcowlax wrote
From the manufacturers perspective, as for the D, they got titanium shafts and they will have to pocket that and be happy.
Yes, which is pretty much the crux of the issue. A sh*t and shinola situation, O gets the shinola and the D gets the sh*t end of the stick. The O has too much of an advantage to my liking...which there aren't four people who care about. Bring the wlax sticks to the men's game or let the defense hold and hack...that'll level the playing field again.
Remember the first time I picked up a stick with a mesh pocket, my first thought was, it felt like an illegal stick, a real game changer. That was as far as you had to go to make it pretty darn easy to handle a stick, then they went too far and F'ed it all up.
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HooDat
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HooDat »

smoova wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm STX Sam or the Brine Superlite would be fine.
couldn't have said it better.

I might even be willing to let in the original excaliber - it had straight sidewalls, no offset but was the first lattice-work sidewall i ever saw. Made the heads a little lighter for touch.
smoova wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm since it would no longer be necessary to utilize the "wink wink" crosscheck hold or to hack off a dodger's arm in order to dislodge the ball.
yep!
DMac wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:27 pm Remember the first time I picked up a stick with a mesh pocket, my first thought was, it felt like an illegal stick, a real game changer. That was as far as you had to go to make it pretty darn easy to handle a stick, then they went too far and F'ed it all up.
pcowlax wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:09 pm They are never going to "deescalate" the stick technology.
but we already did with the 2010 rules. At least we were able to get rid of the ridiculous keyhole shaped heads.... :roll:

smoova wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:20 pm And, yes, this is absolutely "pure offseason bloviating."
of course it is ! :lol:
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
palaxoff
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by palaxoff »

Here is an Honesty Question for you all:

How many of you took your sticks to the limit? The rule about not being able to see over top of ball has been around forever and there have been stringing tricks for as long. Players have tweaked stick since it was called baggataway.

Yes I know you law abiding long poles didn't but your job was to dislodge not carry the ball.
NJlxrdad
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by NJlxrdad »

I'd like to see the rule where a penalty is released if the defense can clear the ball into the opponents box.
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