Ivy League

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faircornell
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by faircornell »

I agree. I guess my point was that doing a PLL format after classes are over would be a great thing if it could ever happen.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

faircornell wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:47 pm I agree. I guess my point was that doing a PLL format after classes are over would be a great thing if it could ever happen.
Yes. I agree. It would be fun. I am keeping my fingers crossed.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Ezra White
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Ezra White »

Chousnake wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:51 pm
JBFortunato wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:03 pm Ah, I see the Ivy League Forum is populated with true believers.

For those Dr. Fauci fans among you, perhaps you didn't see that he came out today (as he did a month ago) fully in favor of opening our schools in the fall. Of course, he changes his tune daily so who knows what he'll say tomorrow.

Any of the data regarding risk to college students is right on the CDC site, if you care to spend the time looking at it. In any case, I'll just reprint here what I posted in another forum earlier this week concerning colleges opening in the fall:

Approximately 112,000 Americans have died from Covid, 142 of those were age 15-24, and I can only assume that many or all of those young people had pre-existing health issues. During that same time period 51 people age 15-24 died of Influenza. Not to mention car accidents, other accidents, other disease, suicide and on and on. People die, and it's sad, and by discussing the data no one wishes to diminish the value of the lives lost, or the suffering those people endured. But the overall risk to college students from Covid is demonstrably and incontrovertibly tiny.

Moreover, as pointed out, there are workarounds to the risks on college campuses, even in athletics, and every student and professor should have the choice to do whatever they are comfortable doing. If you don't feel comfortable playing lacrosse this season, just don't play. Sit this year out.

It is my belief that the collateral damage to our young people associated with locking them in their homes, preventing them from spending time with friends and participating in athletics, and degrading their college experience is and will be a far, far more serious threat to their well being than Covid.
Your arguments don't hold up for a number of reasons:

1. College campuses are not populated only by college students. The staff, faculty, and neighbors are all mostly in age groups for which Covid-19 poses a much higher risk. Upwards of 30-40% of carriers are asymptomatic, but they can and do pass the virus onto others.

2. You are only considering death, but Covid-19 is shown to cause significant harm to those who catch the virus and recover, significantly damaging organs (lungs, heart, kidneys, brain(per a study that came out today)).We really don't know the long term impact on the virus on those that were infected and recovered.

3. Deaths are at 130,000, but that number has been kept lower through the precautionary measures taken by many people. It would be much higher if we had all ignored the virus and carried on normally.

4.Deaths from Covid-19 are in addition to and not in the place of deaths for other reasons. The number of people who die for other reasons is irrelevant to this issue.

Most colleges are opening this Fall for many valid reasons- financial necessity, the need to avoid the social harms of continued isolation on our young people, the reality that most students will take up residence at their colleges whether classes are in person or remote, better testing and tracing. That doesn't mean colleges should not engage in practices that will reduce exposure, such as minimizing large gatherings where social distancing is not possible and virus load and exposure are great.
Glad to see someone else responded to JB's fallacies. Thanks, Chousnake.

I'll add two more replies.

5. In addition to the danger to themselves, young people can become carriers of the disease. Opening up schools when the virus is out of control could unleash hundreds of thousands of young Typhoid (COVID) Marys and Marks.

6. Heart attacks and car accidents are not contagious. Therefore they can't increase geometrically. COVID-19 can.
faircornell
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by faircornell »

As much as I hate to bring it up, there's a "loco parentis" consideration for the institutions. If a student becomes ill playing a sport, regardless of disclaimers signed, there will be litigation that calls into question the judgement of the school's Administration.

Schools will have enough on their hands trying to enforce basic behavioral guidelines. Regrettably, athletics will need to take a back seat.
Can Opener
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Can Opener »

The Ivies just announced that SATs will not be required for the '20-'21 application cycle for athletic recruits:

"Given the ongoing issues with standardized testing in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ivy League will not require prospective student-athletes to submit test scores during the 2020-21 application cycle."
https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/8/14/ge ... ments.aspx

This will have big implications for the Academic Index formula for this class -- probably giving much more leeway to coaches and athletes. The old formula was based heavily on SAT/ACT scores as well as SAT subject matter tests. My guess is that this will blow up the AI for at least this year since 2/3 of the formula was based on those standardized tests. Additionally, because these tests are now optional, Ivies won't be able to ascribe a consistent AI score because some kids will have the scores and some will have only the GPA/Class Rank/HS Quality data point. Apples and oranges. If I were an Ivy lacrosse coach, I would be pinging every top '21 lacrosse player who had committed to a Tier B+ academic institution in an attempt to flip them.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Can Opener wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:44 pm The Ivies just announced that SATs will not be required for the '20-'21 application cycle for athletic recruits:

"Given the ongoing issues with standardized testing in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ivy League will not require prospective student-athletes to submit test scores during the 2020-21 application cycle."
https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/8/14/ge ... ments.aspx

This will have big implications for the Academic Index formula for this class -- probably giving much more leeway to coaches and athletes. The old formula was based heavily on SAT/ACT scores as well as SAT subject matter tests. My guess is that this will blow up the AI for at least this year since 2/3 of the formula was based on those standardized tests. Additionally, because these tests are now optional, Ivies won't be able to ascribe a consistent AI score because some kids will have the scores and some will have only the GPA/Class Rank/HS Quality data point. Apples and oranges. If I were an Ivy lacrosse coach, I would be pinging every top '21 lacrosse player who had committed to a Tier B+ academic institution in an attempt to flip them.
It has the potentially unintended consequence of penalizing student athletes who go to highly demanding high schools and thus earn lower grades and class ranks on a relative basis, but typically do far better on SAT's, SAT II's, and AP tests than do those who go to less competitive HS but get good grades etc with lower SAT's etc...
Tdemling6
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Tdemling6 »

Is Brown The Ivy Everyone Should Be Talking About?

https://lacrossebucket.com/2020/08/19/i ... ing-about/
bearlaxfan
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by bearlaxfan »

I hope no one is talking about Bruno. ;) Also too, contra the article, Brown did make the 2018 ILT. They've made it every year of Daly's tenure (obviously not '20), 1-3 record not too impressive, but Lars was 0-4 in ILT appearances.
10stone5
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by 10stone5 »

2021 Brown Roster is up.
FannOLax
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by FannOLax »

bearlaxfan wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:43 pm I hope no one is talking about Bruno. ;) Also too, contra the article, Brown did make the 2018 ILT. They've made it every year of Daly's tenure (obviously not '20), 1-3 record not too impressive, but Lars was 0-4 in ILT appearances.
Yes, Brown played in the second, or night-time, 2018 ILT semi, playing a Shut-Off Teat defense; Cornell prevailed, I believe by a 7-3 margin. In the 2019 ILT, Brown staged an impressive comeback, and came within a dubious refereeing decision of taking Penn to OT. Brown impressed me both times I saw them in 2019; in 2020, well, 2020 might have been an amazing season of Ivy lacrosse, with Bruno playing a full role.
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DALaxDad
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by DALaxDad »

10stone5 wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:14 pm 2021 Brown Roster is up.
No freshmen listed.
notentitled
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by notentitled »

I read the post about the unintended consequence of not taking test scores. I see advertisements for tutors for these tests, and wonder if the scores could be inflated for some of those individuals that are referenced in that post.
I think it would be refreshing to see less usage of test scores, and more about interviews-possibly we could find out more about people-see if there character matches their grades and test scores. :)

The universities are familiar with the curriculum offered at high schools (schools have academic rankings). In fact, I am sure there are few people who take sub-standard classes and score well at these tougher schools just like the "lesser schools" have all those "easy" courses. The implication of that post is that one should be placed in a different pile due to one score- that seems a rather tight window for acceptance, and most likely could decrease diversity. I think doing well one day on test seems to be an over-weighting to an application. Perhaps the student at another school who excels all year could be better all around student- possibly have a better work ethic. I think schools are trying to recruit well-rounded individuals not one-hit wonders-so in this brave new world admissions departments might have to actually talk to guidance counselors and teachers to find out if the result fits the person. I do recall a scandal with these SAT scores just occurred, but I might be wrong.

Lastly, many schools have the no SAT option and are trying to be more well rounded. Perhaps the Academic index might have to be re-thought- novel idea.

The other message here is that college testing services racket and the cottage industry of tutoring that has grown too big and is getting punched in the face along with many individuals during this Covid19 mess. Perhaps IVY institutions, the Patriot League , or other private schools should take a look at their admissions departments and restructure as well. Nice game 25k apps at 75 dollars an application- turns on the lights and pays some salaries. And the testing service gets a 10 dollar fee to send a test electronically- you can wire larger amounts of money cheaper.

Go Quakers
FannOLax
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by FannOLax »

Speaking of academics, Yale All American defenseman Chris Fake was a 2020 Academic All Ivy... a Chemical Engineering major.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

notentitled wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:01 pm I read the post about the unintended consequence of not taking test scores. I see advertisements for tutors for these tests, and wonder if the scores could be inflated for some of those individuals that are referenced in that post.
I think it would be refreshing to see less usage of test scores, and more about interviews-possibly we could find out more about people-see if there character matches their grades and test scores. :)

The universities are familiar with the curriculum offered at high schools (schools have academic rankings). In fact, I am sure there are few people who take sub-standard classes and score well at these tougher schools just like the "lesser schools" have all those "easy" courses. The implication of that post is that one should be placed in a different pile due to one score- that seems a rather tight window for acceptance, and most likely could decrease diversity. I think doing well one day on test seems to be an over-weighting to an application. Perhaps the student at another school who excels all year could be better all around student- possibly have a better work ethic. I think schools are trying to recruit well-rounded individuals not one-hit wonders-so in this brave new world admissions departments might have to actually talk to guidance counselors and teachers to find out if the result fits the person. I do recall a scandal with these SAT scores just occurred, but I might be wrong.

Lastly, many schools have the no SAT option and are trying to be more well rounded. Perhaps the Academic index might have to be re-thought- novel idea.

The other message here is that college testing services racket and the cottage industry of tutoring that has grown too big and is getting punched in the face along with many individuals during this Covid19 mess. Perhaps IVY institutions, the Patriot League , or other private schools should take a look at their admissions departments and restructure as well. Nice game 25k apps at 75 dollars an application- turns on the lights and pays some salaries. And the testing service gets a 10 dollar fee to send a test electronically- you can wire larger amounts of money cheaper.

Go Quakers
Agreed, the SAT has been a blunt tool that can be influenced through ability to pay for tutoring. The trend to reimagine the admissions process, without the SAT, had already started pre-pandemic. And will continue.

Indeed, I think you'd find that Ivy admissions processes had already become quite multi-faceted, with far less emphasis on test scores. Indeed, in some respects the Harvard suit was about a group of students who felt they'd been systematically racially discriminated against despite having on average higher test scores and grades. Harvard won because their admissions process is clearly not based solely on the academic #'s and they have a number of facets that matter, independent of race. You'll find similar at all the Ivies, if I understand correctly.

I was referring to the AI measurement (all based on hard academic #'s, no subjective) that is designed, between schools, to keep the athletic recruiting limited to an academic band relevant to the school as a whole, and the testing was the easiest objective measurement as to whether each school is abiding by the agreed upon intent.

The unintentional aspect of this, at least short term, may be that the AI measurement may be much tougher to determine and/or may well favor disproportionately the grades and class ranks, unadjusted sufficiently for how competitive the schools are, etc.

Longer term I'd expect them to figure this out.
But my point was not related to whether a more holistic approach to admissions is a good or not (it is good), just the unintended impact on athletic recruitment.

BTW, the Ivies continue to be looking for the truly extraordinary in at least one dimension, with at least strong scores across the other parameters...this is indeed "well-rounded" in the sense that admits tend to be strong across the board, but it's not as if there isn't some specific aspect that distinguishes the admit over those not admitted. And it needs to be "world class". For most kids coming up, this means they did focus on some sort of passion and achieved to a level that stood them well apart.

At least, that's what they're going for...
Ezra White
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Ezra White »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:24 pm
Can Opener wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:44 pm The Ivies just announced that SATs will not be required for the '20-'21 application cycle for athletic recruits:

"Given the ongoing issues with standardized testing in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Ivy League will not require prospective student-athletes to submit test scores during the 2020-21 application cycle."
https://ivyleague.com/news/2020/8/14/ge ... ments.aspx

This will have big implications for the Academic Index formula for this class -- probably giving much more leeway to coaches and athletes. The old formula was based heavily on SAT/ACT scores as well as SAT subject matter tests. My guess is that this will blow up the AI for at least this year since 2/3 of the formula was based on those standardized tests. Additionally, because these tests are now optional, Ivies won't be able to ascribe a consistent AI score because some kids will have the scores and some will have only the GPA/Class Rank/HS Quality data point. Apples and oranges. If I were an Ivy lacrosse coach, I would be pinging every top '21 lacrosse player who had committed to a Tier B+ academic institution in an attempt to flip them.
It has the potentially unintended consequence of penalizing student athletes who go to highly demanding high schools and thus earn lower grades and class ranks on a relative basis, but typically do far better on SAT's, SAT II's, and AP tests than do those who go to less competitive HS but get good grades etc with lower SAT's etc...
In a perverse way, this could be good preparation for potential Ivy students. If they decide to go to graduate school, they may encounter a similar situation. Somewhat lower grades in much tougher courses than competing applicants from less academically demanding schools can sometimes be overcome by much higher GRE, LSAT, MCAT, etc. scores. If the standardized tests become optional, grades will be the deciding factor. Especially at large state schools, the Michigans and UCLAs of the world, admission committees may have little flexibility to make subjective assessments of the meaning of applicants' grades from different schools.

The story I like to tell is that the introductory statistics course in my junior year at Cornell used the same textbook as Berkeley's statistics department used for its introductory course for incoming PhD students. At least in the engineering college, Cornell simply didn't have any of the algebra-only, plug-into-the-formula undergraduate statistics courses one typically finds at less demanding institutions. Yet an A from the latter might simply mean the student memorized the formula for a standard deviation and knew how to calculate its value, while a B from an Ivy might mean the student can derive the formulas for unbiased estimators, explain why one formula divides by N but another, by N-1, and, more generally, be able to develop their own statistic "on the fly" in unfamiliar situations.

Or, as someone once put it in the context of law schools: when one school prepares students to conduct real-estate closings and another school prepares them to be Supreme Court justices, there's a world of difference in what "making law review" means at the two schools.
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Farfromgeneva »

I know a guy from Duke Law who’s pretty much a failure at even doing real estate closings and has been taken off the referral list for public defender work in Fulton County, GA...(point being in areas where learning is objective that it doesn’t require a “name” school. Or something about Duke...)
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Tdemling6
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Tdemling6 »

With Nowhere To Go But Up, Dartmouth Looks to Keep Building

https://lacrossebucket.com/2020/08/28/w ... -building/
bearlaxfan
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by bearlaxfan »

https://www.golocalprov.com/sports/brow ... ds-federal

Blech. If the article is accurate, don't blame Title IX. All these email whiners are BigMoneyBoyz. Dig deep boyz, fund something. Brown is after all the church mouse of the IL (these things being relative vis. the real world I know.)
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Ivy League 2020

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Yep. I heard Yale is taking a similar approach. Time will tell.
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