Johns Hopkins 2020

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WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus »

You’ve got to think about what happened in the fall of 2012 that led to the disaster in 2013 to understand.

I’ll keep working on the Penalty Box visits.

Last time I was in there, I had a visitation.
houndace1
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by houndace1 »

HopFan16 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:11 am
WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:00 pm Hopkins advances. Now playing at 845 tonight. Semifinals.
Wait, but I thought Daniels and Shanahan were the scourge of Hopkins athletics and solely responsible for the continued failure of every program and that everything is ruined forever, again, because of them?



Back to lacrosse—'06 has probably been working on that one all season. Only a few run-on sentences and it actually includes some punctuation.

This "losing 3-4 kids from the roster" obsession strikes me as weird. It's neither a mystery nor a scandal. It happens. It happens at Maryland, it happens at Duke, it happens at Virginia, and it happens at Hopkins. Every year a couple guys leave the team. It's not some great indictment of the Hopkins lacrosse program that a fourth string LSM from Colorado wanted to move back home and play for a school closer to home. Like 51 said, if there's a problem it's that there's probably too many kids on the roster. When's the last time a guy left the team and became a difference maker somewhere else? It's not like there are All-Americans just hiding on the bench, waiting to be unleashed at another program.[/b] (Well, except maybe Zinn, but hopefully that changes very soon.)
But aren't there great players riding the bench at a pristine lacrosse program like Hopkins? JHU, Duke, MD, UNC, UVA picks the cream of the crop players every year
Loyola '18
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WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus »

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51percentcorn
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by 51percentcorn »

It's kind of funny - we still treat fall of '12/'13 season like it was the Manhattan Project or something. It was 7 years ago. I won't be the one to spill any national secrets but Wombat I do have the following thoughts and while I have no direct knowledge of the actual negotiations I know more than most probably (generally what happened, where it happened, who was upset, initial position of the administration etc.)
- Shanahan - of course - was not involved whatsoever
- The general issue involved is an incredibly serious one for universities - while it can be perhaps trifled at by old schoolers - it simply cannot be ignored

So whether you feel the actual circumstances tripped up the warnings/responses for the general issue or you don't - the administration's concern was likely justified. I have always felt the rolling suspensions was perhaps the worst possible outcome. I guess it was a better alternative than cancelling the season but forfeiting one game and apologizing to the opponent might have saved that season and it was tinged with a feeling that we were continually manipulating the issue to be competitive (I seem to recall very few suspensions for critical games - I think everyone played in the 8-4 loss to Loyola for example and then we had to sit out several important players for Army but the NCAA tournament was done by that point) which I think sends a questionable signal.

No one connected with the program got out of '13 unscathed
jhu06
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by jhu06 »

HopFan16 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:11 am
WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:00 pm Hopkins advances. Now playing at 845 tonight. Semifinals.
Wait, but I thought Daniels and Shanahan were the scourge of Hopkins athletics and solely responsible for the continued failure of every program and that everything is ruined forever, again, because of them?



Back to lacrosse—'06 has probably been working on that one all season. Only a few run-on sentences and it actually includes some punctuation.

This "losing 3-4 kids from the roster" obsession strikes me as weird. It's neither a mystery nor a scandal. It happens. It happens at Maryland, it happens at Duke, it happens at Virginia, and it happens at Hopkins. Every year a couple guys leave the team. It's not some great indictment of the Hopkins lacrosse program that a fourth string LSM from Colorado wanted to move back home and play for a school closer to home. Like 51 said, if there's a problem it's that there's probably too many kids on the roster. When's the last time a guy left the team and became a difference maker somewhere else? It's not like there are All-Americans just hiding on the bench, waiting to be unleashed at another program. (Well, except maybe Zinn, but hopefully that changes very soon.)
3-4 isn't much and is less than the Hopkins student body as a whole which is a positive for the program. I think the IL post the other day on the terps had 6-7 moving on and that's probably a much easier situation financially and academically. I think the rest of my post is pretty spot on. They did a great job this year keeping the roster healthy or getting guys back in the lineup as well as keeping them eligible to play (which is not insignificant) but if past is prologue we're going to see about 92% of the lineup back w key areas where we've struggled to develop guys-ssdm/lsm working in new faces.

I don't care if you're going after me, but I'm more interested in where you think the solutions are coming from on the problems we see year in year out because they don't seem to have them at clc.
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by HopFan16 »

jhu06 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:12 pm

I don't care if you're going after me, but I'm more interested in where you think the solutions are coming from on the problems we see year in year out because they don't seem to have them at clc.
Nobody's going after you anymore than you go after the lacrosse players, most of whom you have made it very clear are worthless to you unless they're a Rabil-like talent. Suddenly you're worried about LSM—I thought Kuhn didn't do anything for you? I've got nothing against you personally, you know I always enjoy the banter but I also have no issue telling you I don't like the way you've historically talked about the players (this offseason especially) and I don't think that it makes the Hopkins alumni community look very good when you've got dudes literally saying they're glad to be rid of certain guys minutes after they play their last game. I'm sure you don't care and in all likelihood absolutely nothing we say or do on this forum matters on iota but if we're going to take a page out of Bob Scott's playbook I'd hope we can treat everyone who comes through the Hopkins lacrosse program, if they play hard and do their homework, with at least a modicum of dignity. These are students, not professional athletes. I suppose as someone who was friendly with a number of 2012-2013 seniors and seeing how some anonymous message board posters treated them has colored my opinion of the issue. For the most part these are good kids who leave everything out on the field for the blue and black. Robert Kuhn especially, I mean come on the kid was voted by his peers to wear the uniform of a recently deceased teammate. I don't care how many GBs he did or didn't have, that's a kid you should respect as he's hanging up his cleats for the last time. There is absolutely no need to frame his entire career and worth in terms of whether or not he'll be "missed." He was a solid player for four years—no, he may not have been Brian Karalunas—but I will miss seeing him play and I hope his replacement is as good or even better.

I don't know where the solutions are coming from—none of us do and even if we did, as denizens of the internet we are powerless to institute them unless your last name is Cordish or Bloomberg and can make things happen with your checkbook.
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QuakerSouth
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by QuakerSouth »

HopFan16 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:10 pm Nobody's going after you anymore than you go after the lacrosse players, most of whom you have made it very clear are worthless to you unless they're a Rabil-like talent. Suddenly you're worried about LSM—I thought Kuhn didn't do anything for you? I've got nothing against you personally, you know I always enjoy the banter but I also have no issue telling you I don't like the way you've historically talked about the players (this offseason especially) and I don't think that it makes the Hopkins alumni community look very good when you've got dudes literally saying they're glad to be rid of certain guys minutes after they play their last game. I'm sure you don't care and in all likelihood absolutely nothing we say or do on this forum matters on iota but if we're going to take a page out of Bob Scott's playbook I'd hope we can treat everyone who comes through the Hopkins lacrosse program, if they play hard and do their homework, with at least a modicum of dignity. These are students, not professional athletes. I suppose as someone who was friendly with a number of 2012-2013 seniors and seeing how some anonymous message board posters treated them has colored my opinion of the issue. For the most part these are good kids who leave everything out on the field for the blue and black. Robert Kuhn especially, I mean come on the kid was voted by his peers to wear the uniform of a recently deceased teammate. I don't care how many GBs he did or didn't have, that's a kid you should respect as he's hanging up his cleats for the last time. There is absolutely no need to frame his entire career and worth in terms of whether or not he'll be "missed." He was a solid player for four years—no, he may not have been Brian Karalunas—but I will miss seeing him play and I hope his replacement is as good or even better.
^ This. Unfortunately, it needs to repeated. Often.
viper
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by viper »

genghiskhanbluejay wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 2:32 pm If he's not the coach see John Haus and what his kids did when he was fired (who both grew up UNC fans) as the prime example of what will transpire.
I guarantee the son playing attack for BL is going to be a top 10 recruit before he's done HS (would not be surprised if he is ranked first). If he does choose Hopkins I believe he would be able to go there for free per their free college tuition for employees children program, so he would not take up any scholarship money; that's a nice perk to get one of the top players in the country and and not have to use any of the 12.6 on him.
Is it free? I thought it was 50% tuition for one parent at Hopkins and 100% tuition if both are there. I could be wrong when it comes to tenured faculty, etc.
jhu06
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by jhu06 »

HopFan16 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:10 pm
jhu06 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:12 pm

I don't care if you're going after me, but I'm more interested in where you think the solutions are coming from on the problems we see year in year out because they don't seem to have them at clc.
Nobody's going after you anymore than you go after the lacrosse players, most of whom you have made it very clear are worthless to you unless they're a Rabil-like talent. Suddenly you're worried about LSM—I thought Kuhn didn't do anything for you? I've got nothing against you personally, you know I always enjoy the banter but I also have no issue telling you I don't like the way you've historically talked about the players (this offseason especially) and I don't think that it makes the Hopkins alumni community look very good when you've got dudes literally saying they're glad to be rid of certain guys minutes after they play their last game. I'm sure you don't care and in all likelihood absolutely nothing we say or do on this forum matters on iota but if we're going to take a page out of Bob Scott's playbook I'd hope we can treat everyone who comes through the Hopkins lacrosse program, if they play hard and do their homework, with at least a modicum of dignity. These are students, not professional athletes. I suppose as someone who was friendly with a number of 2012-2013 seniors and seeing how some anonymous message board posters treated them has colored my opinion of the issue. For the most part these are good kids who leave everything out on the field for the blue and black. Robert Kuhn especially, I mean come on the kid was voted by his peers to wear the uniform of a recently deceased teammate. I don't care how many GBs he did or didn't have, that's a kid you should respect as he's hanging up his cleats for the last time. There is absolutely no need to frame his entire career and worth in terms of whether or not he'll be "missed." He was a solid player for four years—no, he may not have been Brian Karalunas—but I will miss seeing him play and I hope his replacement is as good or even better.

I don't know where the solutions are coming from—none of us do and even if we did, as denizens of the internet we are powerless to institute them unless your last name is Cordish or Bloomberg and can make things happen with your checkbook.
that's fine where's the explanation for the 207 goals-100 more than 2013 and 44 more than 2018 gave up and the negative goal differential?
CrossCrease
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by CrossCrease »

Shot clock likely played a part in that
WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus »

51percentcorn wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:13 am It's kind of funny - we still treat fall of '12/'13 season like it was the Manhattan Project or something. It was 7 years ago. I won't be the one to spill any national secrets but Wombat I do have the following thoughts and while I have no direct knowledge of the actual negotiations I know more than most probably (generally what happened, where it happened, who was upset, initial position of the administration etc.)
- Shanahan - of course - was not involved whatsoever
- The general issue involved is an incredibly serious one for universities - while it can be perhaps trifled at by old schoolers - it simply cannot be ignored

So whether you feel the actual circumstances tripped up the warnings/responses for the general issue or you don't - the administration's concern was likely justified. I have always felt the rolling suspensions was perhaps the worst possible outcome. I guess it was a better alternative than cancelling the season but forfeiting one game and apologizing to the opponent might have saved that season and it was tinged with a feeling that we were continually manipulating the issue to be competitive (I seem to recall very few suspensions for critical games - I think everyone played in the 8-4 loss to Loyola for example and then we had to sit out several important players for Army but the NCAA tournament was done by that point) which I think sends a questionable signal.

No one connected with the program got out of '13 unscathed
But every major player from 2013 is gone, except for four key people.

Hint: three are on the sidelines. And there’s the beef.
steel_hop
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by steel_hop »

CrossCrease wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:59 pm Shot clock likely played a part in that
Played a part in scoring going up, sure. Playing a part in negative goal differential? Maybe a little.

Slight hi-jack, does anyone know what the scoring differences where when you compare the

2019 year verse
- 30 second shot clock
- the no 30 second shot clock era
- when you could have 6 long poles.

I'd be curious to see what the changes are.
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by HopFan16 »

jhu06 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:25 pm that's fine where's the explanation for the 207 goals-100 more than 2013 and 44 more than 2018 gave up and the negative goal differential?
The explanation is that the defense and goaltending were bad.

I've gone on record a number of times saying that I think the coaching staff should change its philosophy and be more aggressive. The poles are athletic enough to do it. Foley would probably have double the amount of CT if he was allowed to press out on guys. And maybe if you put some more pressure on teams they won't find it so easy to calmly and coolly take one of the SSDMs to the woodshed every possession. DocB has been chided for this but one thing I think he's absolutely right about is when you're giving up 13 goals per game you simply have to try something different. What you're doing is not working on any level.

What's mind boggling is that the Jays were halfway decent on the man-down this year—that tells me that maybe they might be able to execute a somewhat effective 6v6 zone defense but then again the goalie obviously struggled to stop outside shots. So if you can't make the saves on the shots that a zone D is designed to force then you're probably not going to want to run a zone defense.

I don't think Petro reacted especially well to the shot clock—I've said this before, but assuming he returns in 2020 I would hope that in year two under the new rules the team is better adapted.

We'll see. It will be very, very difficult for the defense to get any worse in 2020. Goaltending, no matter who's in net—whether it's the same kid with a year of experience under his belt and an offseason to correct bad habits, or someone else—is likely to improve from 45% and if it doesn't, well things are sure going to get ugly in this thread. Maybe one of these incoming freshmen SSDMs is able to shore up that position to a point where the poles don't have to constantly worry about covering two guys at once but obviously that remains to be seen.

Another way to mask a mediocre defense—as Penn State, Yale, Penn, and Virginia (for most of the year) did—is to win faceoffs and play good offense. In the shot clock era, if you can't score goals you shouldn't even bother showing up. You can't win with an actively heinous swiss-cheese defense but you can definitely win with one that's mediocre or even "not very good" if you're strong in other areas. Duke was the only Final Four team even near the top 10 in scoring defense. Penn State was 32, Yale 37, Penn 44.
wgdsr
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by wgdsr »

virginia made the final four, not penn.
and by goals against, they were close to a top 10 defense.
fwiw.
they also tightened up quite a bit as the year went on.
genghiskhanbluejay
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by genghiskhanbluejay »

viper wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:18 pm
genghiskhanbluejay wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 2:32 pm If he's not the coach see John Haus and what his kids did when he was fired (who both grew up UNC fans) as the prime example of what will transpire.
I guarantee the son playing attack for BL is going to be a top 10 recruit before he's done HS (would not be surprised if he is ranked first). If he does choose Hopkins I believe he would be able to go there for free per their free college tuition for employees children program, so he would not take up any scholarship money; that's a nice perk to get one of the top players in the country and and not have to use any of the 12.6 on him.
Is it free? I thought it was 50% tuition for one parent at Hopkins and 100% tuition if both are there. I could be wrong when it comes to tenured faculty, etc.
I could be wrong, I thought back when he took the job it was 100% after 2 years of employment and they changed it to 50% per employee about 10 years ago.
Old Lax Fan
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by Old Lax Fan »

These numbers are hardly official. Use them with care
Goals Assists
2002 Hopkins 129 79
Opponents 107 55

2003 Hopkins 224 151
Opponents 111 63

2004 Hopkins 182 117
Opponents 115 63

2005 Hopkins 186 92
Opponents 111 70

2006 Hopkins 138 69
Opponents 115 70

2007 Hopkins 178 89
Opponents 133 71

2008 Hopkins 179 85
Opponents 140 71

2009 Hopkins 173 108
Opponents 155 96

2010 Hopkins 152 75
Opponents 144 84

2011 Hopkins 180 99
Opponents 116 68

2012 Hopkins 165 96
Opponents 118 64

2013 Hopkins 161 92
Opponents 109 59

2014 Hopkins 193 119
Opponents 143 81

2015 Hopkins 234 140
Opponents 189 101

2016 Hopkins 185 109
Opponents 174 99

2017 Hopkins 174 100
Opponents 172 100

2018 Hopkins 199 124
Opponents 165 85

2019 Hopkins 194 117
Opponents 208 110


steel_hop wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:26 am
CrossCrease wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:59 pm Shot clock likely played a part in that
Played a part in scoring going up, sure. Playing a part in negative goal differential? Maybe a little.

Slight hi-jack, does anyone know what the scoring differences where when you compare the

2019 year verse
- 30 second shot clock
- the no 30 second shot clock era
- when you could have 6 long poles.

I'd be curious to see what the changes are.
Last edited by Old Lax Fan on Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
steel_hop
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by steel_hop »

Old Lax Fan wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:39 pm These numbers are hardly official. Use them with care
Goals Assists
2002 Hopkins 129 79
Opponents 107 55

2003 Hopkins 224 151
Opponents 111 63

2004 Hopkins 182 117
Opponents 115 63

2005 Hopkins 186 92
Opponents 111 70

2006 Hopkins 138 69
Opponents 115 70

2007 Hopkins 178 89
Opponents 133 71

2008 Hopkins 179 85
Opponents 140 71

2009 Hopkins 173 108
Opponents 155 96

2010 Hopkins 152 75
Opponents 144 84

2011 Hopkins 180 99
Opponents 116 68

2012 Hopkins 165 96
Opponents 118 64

2013 Hopkins 161 92
Opponents 109 59

2014 Hopkins 193 119
Opponents 143 81

2015 Hopkins 234 140
Opponents 189 101

2016 Hopkins 185 109
Opponents 174 99

2017 Hopkins 174 100
Opponents 172 100

2018 Hopkins 199 124
Opponents 165 85

2019 Hopkins 185 113
Opponents 192 102


steel_hop wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:26 am
CrossCrease wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:59 pm Shot clock likely played a part in that
Played a part in scoring going up, sure. Playing a part in negative goal differential? Maybe a little.

Slight hi-jack, does anyone know what the scoring differences where when you compare the

2019 year verse
- 30 second shot clock
- the no 30 second shot clock era
- when you could have 6 long poles.

I'd be curious to see what the changes are.
Thanks. Your 2019 numbers are wrong. Hopkins D gave up 208 Goals for 13 GAA.

I was looking more at the entirety of DI lax not just Hopkins specific to see how much of an impact going to the current shot clock rules changed scoring.

If you are going to use just Hopkins numbers you need to look at GAA and GFA i.e. in 2015 Hopkins gave up just over 10 goals a game (they played 2 more games) compared to the 2019 that was at 13 GAA
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HopFan16
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by HopFan16 »

Some good info here: https://lacrossereference.com/2019/05/2 ... hot-clock/

Total goals per game across D1 lacrosse were up by more than 2 from last year. 22.8 in 2019 vs 20.6 in 2018. Possessions and total shots were also up.

The shot clock definitely accounts for some of Hop's gargantuan goals allowed numbers (compared to prior seasons) but it was still 58th or whatever in the country this year. So it was just plain bad no matter how you slice it. 65th out of 69 in save percentage.
51percentcorn
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by 51percentcorn »

It's pretty easy to me - again just look at either Penn State's last goal in the Big Final or Notre Dame's 1st goal in the NCAA 1st round. When Hopkins believes the SSDMs can stand on their own (to some degree - and of course the belief has to be supported by actual events) then the defensive formations and slides that resulted in those two easy goals - and many more like them - will lessen. We abandon solid defensive principles to such a degree we let those shots to be taken by O'Keefe and Costabile. Find a goalie that can stab a couple outside shots and you might have a GAA closer to 10.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Johns Hopkins 2020

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

HopFan16 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:50 pm Some good info here: https://lacrossereference.com/2019/05/2 ... hot-clock/

Total goals per game across D1 lacrosse were up by more than 2 from last year. 22.8 in 2019 vs 20.6 in 2018. Possessions and total shots were also up.

The shot clock definitely accounts for some of Hop's gargantuan goals allowed numbers (compared to prior seasons) but it was still 58th or whatever in the country this year. So it was just plain bad no matter how you slice it. 65th out of 69 in save percentage.
Was it the 80 second shot clock or the 20 second clear and shorter box that changed so much possession and led to more shots? I bet more shots came out of failed clears versus faster 6 v 6 pace of play.......
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