DARTMOUTH 2020

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Laxjunkie
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DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by Laxjunkie »

The championship is over. 2020 begins.

Can't go anywhere but up from here: http://fanlax.com/fanlax/2019/05/27/201 ... EBmniAcP7E

Thoughts on 2020?
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admin
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by admin »

LaxJ, I'm assuming you're more tied into Dartmouth than I am and... What's going on? Years ago, Dartmouth was a (relatively) top team, one of the teams in our Fantasy League, etc. Plays in a good conference, has a lacrosse tradition, to the best of my understanding, good fans, good education, New England is attractive... I don't get it.
RumorMill
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by RumorMill »

Wow! I'm fairly new to this, but MD, are you going to start a 2021 thread? Can't believe you let Laxj get in front of you on this! :lol:
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

RumorMill wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 6:39 pm Wow! I'm fairly new to this, but MD, are you going to start a 2021 thread? Can't believe you let Laxj get in front of you on this! :lol:
:lol:
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

admin wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 6:29 pm LaxJ, I'm assuming you're more tied into Dartmouth than I am and... What's going on? Years ago, Dartmouth was a (relatively) top team, one of the teams in our Fantasy League, etc. Plays in a good conference, has a lacrosse tradition, to the best of my understanding, good fans, good education, New England is attractive... I don't get it.
Well, not sure how Wagner and Binghampton get rated above Dartmouth, but gosh, obviously there's very little difference between the absolute bottom of the cellar and one step up. LaxJ's fundamental point is accurate.

Let's not belabor history, but yes, this has been a disastrous decade for Dartmouth Men's Lacrosse. The Sowell era, however, definitely showed the potential.

Can we regain forward momentum?

I believe so.
I base that on what I hear, directly from players and parents, about the culture change that is now in place, the players' support for the current coaching staff, the personal growth of the HC, and the commitments being made financially, making possible a first class Associate Head Coach and new indoor facility in construction, with hopefully an endowed HC soon.

2020 will, for the first time since 2015, have all 11 members of the senior class who matriculated leading the team. Junior captains Richardson and Martin return. With the addition of two freshman FOGO's, and hopefully the return of the injured FOGO. With also perhaps the best class of freshmen players to date competing for time. And 2021 even better.

Back to FOGO, if Dartmouth had simply won 50% of its FO's (instead of 30% overall and 23% in Ivy), the record would have been dramatically different. That doesn't mean beating this year's Yale or Penn teams, but most OOC games won, and potential Ivy upsets.

Other than X, Dartmouth wins the GB hustle battle by a wide margin. They create TO's. They fight super hard, but the X was a crusher, resulting in a very large differential in shots taken and more forced shots.

Dartmouth does face some challenges, given the way the D-Plan works. Fewer total team practices than our Ivy rivals, not to mention non-Ivies. Difficult weather more often than most schools (indoor facility will help a lot). Much of the junior class off campus in fall of that junior year.

This has typically manifested in much less comfortable ball handling and full field play at the beginning of each season versus mid and late season play. Very high turnover rate early on, far less confident ball movement, clearing, etc.

Those challenges are not insurmountable, but it requires recognition and a real commitment by the players to off-season work. Guys need to be playing summer ball, not thinking of summer as 'vacation' from lax. It's clear that the physical commitment has been much improved with the current culture, but there's now a recognition that, more than running and lifting, these guys need a stick in their hands constantly.

I think we're going to see increased Lax IQ over the next few years, due to the recruiting and the coaching development, and the relative experience level of the teams going forward. That's going to result in more W's.

If that doesn't happen, there will be a complete reboot. But there's plenty of optimism about the trajectory.

Meanwhile, the team is achieving its highest GPA levels ever and the team culture is strong, far less off-field issues. We're proud of the young men.

Hopefully that will lead to additional alumni and College support, including with Admissions.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

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MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:50 amWell, not sure how Wagner and Binghampton get rated above Dartmouth, but gosh, obviously there's very little difference between the absolute bottom of the cellar and one step up. LaxJ's fundamental point is accurate.
As a bottom-ranked team, they lose zero points for their losses. And they beat Wagner and Binghamton. (but we don't base the rankings on head-to-head. Head-to-head consistently leads to teams chasing another team's tail who is chasing another team's tail who is... chasing the original team's tail.) So why aren't Binghamton and Wagner below them? Because Binghamton also has 2 wins and those 2 wins are better than Dartmouth's: Hartford and UMass-Lowell. And the same for Wagner, 2 wins: NJIT and Bellarmine.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:50 amCan we regain forward momentum? I believe so.
As do I. for some programs, the cards are stacked against them. Dartmouth is not one of them.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

admin wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:50 amWell, not sure how Wagner and Binghampton get rated above Dartmouth, but gosh, obviously there's very little difference between the absolute bottom of the cellar and one step up. LaxJ's fundamental point is accurate.
As a bottom-ranked team, they lose zero points for their losses. And they beat Wagner and Binghamton. (but we don't base the rankings on head-to-head. Head-to-head consistently leads to teams chasing another team's tail who is chasing another team's tail who is... chasing the original team's tail.) So why aren't Binghamton and Wagner below them? Because Binghamton also has 2 wins and those 2 wins are better than Dartmouth's: Hartford and UMass-Lowell. And the same for Wagner, 2 wins: NJIT and Bellarmine.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:50 amCan we regain forward momentum? I believe so.
As do I. for some programs, the cards are stacked against them. Dartmouth is not one of them.
Yeah, I figured it was something like that. Some sort of formula.
Dartmouth, with a much better SOS, beats teams yet ranked below those same teams despite same total record.

But no worries, the basement is the basement.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

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MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:35 amDartmouth, with a much better SOS, beats teams yet ranked below those same teams despite same total record.
Correct. For what it's worth, the first time D'mouth dropped to the bottom (they weren't always there. Binghamton got their 2 wins in their last two games of the season.), I said, Shoot! because I obviously made a mistake and will need to re-run the rankings. Dartmouth on the bottom of the pile made zero sense to me and... Though I was happy that i didn't have to re-run the rankings, I paused and had an unintentional moment of silence. Dartmouth was great. In 2004, Coffin was a First Round Pick. As recently as 2010, Sussman was the #7 top scorer. from 2011 through 2014, D'mouth players were drafted but, even the higher point guys weren't putting up great Points. this includes the D. In 2015, few players were being drafted and, across the board, not big Points. Then, in 2016, Dartmouth and (I can't remember... though I could look it up) were replaced with Denver and Yale. But Dartmouth was one of our teams and they were great! So... It bothered me to see them at the bottom. Sincerely, I'm not saying this to rub salt in a wound. I'm just bothered by their current state.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by Matnum PI »

In 2004, I drafted Grinnel as my 3rd Pick and, in 2005, was the Middie of the Year. Dartmouth had talent.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

admin wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 9:01 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:35 amDartmouth, with a much better SOS, beats teams yet ranked below those same teams despite same total record.
Correct. For what it's worth, the first time D'mouth dropped to the bottom (they weren't always there. Binghamton got their 2 wins in their last two games of the season.), I said, Shoot! because I obviously made a mistake and will need to re-run the rankings. Dartmouth on the bottom of the pile made zero sense to me and... Though I was happy that i didn't have to re-run the rankings, I paused and had an unintentional moment of silence. Dartmouth was great. In 2004, Coffin was a First Round Pick. As recently as 2010, Sussman was the #7 top scorer. from 2011 through 2014, D'mouth players were drafted but, even the higher point guys weren't putting up great Points. this includes the D. In 2015, few players were being drafted and, across the board, not big Points. Then, in 2016, Dartmouth and (I can't remember... though I could look it up) were replaced with Denver and Yale. But Dartmouth was one of our teams and they were great! So... It bothered me to see them at the bottom. Sincerely, I'm not saying this to rub salt in a wound. I'm just bothered by their current state.
Totally understood, indeed the well wishes are appreciated.
We'll be back. Hope that becomes evident in 2020!
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Matnum PI wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 9:04 am In 2004, I drafted Grinnel as my 3rd Pick and, in 2005, was the Middie of the Year. Dartmouth had talent.
Still do.
But winning is necessary to get recognized fully.

I was surprised, for instance, that Dartmouth's tender wasn't All-Ivy.
Really a joke that he wasn't. He missed a couple of games due to injury, but the #2 crushed it in his absence. Between them they had the highest saves %, facing the highest barrage of shots, of any goalie in the Ivy League.

But no Ivy wins since 2015...

Remember, this same squad, basically, was an inch away from upsetting Penn just a year ago.
A freshman phenom and a FOGO transfer were the only substantive differences for Penn; and loss of D's best pole to injury.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by Dartjd76 »

Ranking aside, it will take a miracle for Dartmouth to become competitive (.500) in the Ivy League. The realistic alums and fans know this, and will settle for winning a weak OOC schedule and one or two IL wins per year. That is how success is spelled at DC for men's lax.
Hopefully all the solid positional recruits in the pipeline and improved coaching can move the program up the rankings to at least the top 50. Beyond that, it's not gonna happen because Sowell ain't coming back, and coaches of that caliber have all declined the job.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by QuakerSouth »

Dartmouth being better is good for all the Ivies. One of the beauties of this conference are the dogfights every league game usually brings. That has been missing of late, and we need to get that back.

D is turning the corner. It seemed like the team was better this past year. Just marginally, but they did seem better. They will knock an Ivy off. Soon. They took the Quakes to 2OT in 2018, hitting a pipe in OT that was just inches from being the game-winner.

It only takes a couple quality recruits. Maybe they are already on campus, and they will blossom next year. Its hard to tell.

And although D thinks the D-plan is a differentiation, and a strength, I think its a negative. Pton's calendar was different with Fall Finals after Christmas for years. They finally changed that. As strange as things like that sound, the kids want to be on the same schedule as 99% of their the rest of the country, and their friends. Scrap the D-Plan go to semesters, and I bet they start to get recruits they weren't getting before. And increase enrollment. Doesn't have to be by much, just 100-200 per class.

They won't be down forever. And as I've mentioned before on LP, there are a few coaches on campus (in other sports) I know who have been part of the exact kind of turnaround (at other Ivies) that D needs. Their insight should be sought out. Now I'd like to see D turn the corner, but I can't tell you who those people are. D needs to figure that out themselves.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by sguy9 »

Nice to see Dartmouth 2020 off to a hot start. Lets hope the team follows along. GBG
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QuakerSouth
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by QuakerSouth »

Dartjd76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 9:31 am The realistic alums and fans know this, and will settle for winning a weak OOC schedule and one or two IL wins per year. That is how success is spelled at DC for men's lax.
Wow. Sounds like DC should just scrap the program all together and be like Columbia Men's Lacrosse.

A year or two ago, I thought DC and Georgetown Lacrosse were at about the same point. And both fanbases were calling for both coaches' heads. I thought both were two of the best opportunities in D1 lacrosse. Look at what Gtown has done.

Is there any reason why DC can't do what Gtown has done? Granted, Big East Lacrosse isn't Ivy lacrosse, and winning the Ivy auto bid would be a much more difficult task than the BE auto bid, but....

A coach who gets DC to a winning record and in the hunt for an ILT berth would be a hero in administration. Once at that point, anything can happen. You can at least talk to top recruits, and you might even get a couple. Thats how trends start and quality programs are (re)built.

A rebuild will never happen with a defeatist attitude....find a coach that will change the above narrative, not accept it. He's out here looking for his shot...
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by admin »

One more Fantasy Lacrosse comment. :) The first year of our League, one of our coaches was a Dartmouth player. It was kind of funny. Needless to say, he drafted himself...
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus »

admin wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 11:42 am One more Fantasy Lacrosse comment. :) The first year of our League, one of our coaches was a Dartmouth player. It was kind of funny. Needless to say, he drafted himself...
That’s almost like Being John Malkovich.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

QuakerSouth wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 9:41 am Dartmouth being better is good for all the Ivies. One of the beauties of this conference are the dogfights every league game usually brings. That has been missing of late, and we need to get that back.

D is turning the corner. It seemed like the team was better this past year. Just marginally, but they did seem better. They will knock an Ivy off. Soon. They took the Quakes to 2OT in 2018, hitting a pipe in OT that was just inches from being the game-winner.

It only takes a couple quality recruits. Maybe they are already on campus, and they will blossom next year. Its hard to tell.

And although D thinks the D-plan is a differentiation, and a strength, I think its a negative. Pton's calendar was different with Fall Finals after Christmas for years. They finally changed that. As strange as things like that sound, the kids want to be on the same schedule as 99% of their the rest of the country, and their friends. Scrap the D-Plan go to semesters, and I bet they start to get recruits they weren't getting before. And increase enrollment. Doesn't have to be by much, just 100-200 per class.

They won't be down forever. And as I've mentioned before on LP, there are a few coaches on campus (in other sports) I know who have been part of the exact kind of turnaround (at other Ivies) that D needs. Their insight should be sought out. Now I'd like to see D turn the corner, but I can't tell you who those people are. D needs to figure that out themselves.
I'm doubtful we'll see any change to the D-plan, but I agree that it's a challenge...not to recruiting, just to the time together as a team.

Thanks for your positive thoughts, appreciated.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Dartjd76 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 9:31 am Ranking aside, it will take a miracle for Dartmouth to become competitive (.500) in the Ivy League. The realistic alums and fans know this, and will settle for winning a weak OOC schedule and one or two IL wins per year. That is how success is spelled at DC for men's lax.
Hopefully all the solid positional recruits in the pipeline and improved coaching can move the program up the rankings to at least the top 50. Beyond that, it's not gonna happen because Sowell ain't coming back, and coaches of that caliber have all declined the job.
You've been quite consistent with that view.

But I'm quite sure that the AD and the Friends don't agree with: "...settle for winning a weak OOC schedule and one or two IL wins per year. That is how success is spelled at DC for men's lax."

Yes, the first big step is winning the OOC games and start bumping off other Ivies, but that's not where it ends.

You'll see the SOS strengthen as well, with 'upsets' of top tier teams, and ILT challenges...get in the mix and it can become a virtuous cycle. We've seen it in other sports, no reason to think we can't do it in Men's Lax. And I think we're just a handful of guys away from playing seriously good ball again.

But I think what you're really saying is that you don't believe these coaches can do it. That's been your recurring theme, and, hey, you could be correct.

Of course, I strongly hope you're not correct, but if you are, changes will be made.
I think the AD learned the hard way during the last transition that the lax world's perception of the opportunity at Dartmouth had become less attractive than he'd assumed (having successfully attracted a bunch of other premiere hires, and subsequently with the Women's Lax hire) and the fumbles and loss of a cycle won't happen again.

But I think we may well see the maturation of this head coach into a real success story. The team plays really hard and has remained amazingly positive about the coaching staff, despite really awful frustrations on the scoreboard. Administration is very pleased with change in off-field achievements and behaviors.

How long did it take Andy Shay to bring Yale into top Ivy contention (7 yrs?) and who the heck thought a national championship, or even a Final Four, was possible for Yale even a decade ago? Frankly, if Sowell hadn't headed to a city environment we might have seen Dartmouth sucking up all the oxygen that Shay took advantage of once Dartmouth slipped. Same for Harvard and Tillman.

Things change.
We need to see forward momentum soon, though.

Meanwhile, it's great to see the Ivy representatives in the big dance play such great ball.
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Re: DARTMOUTH 2020

Post by b1w7o9y7h »

I shall begin the 2020 campaign by invoking the rarely utilized Ghosts of Samson Occom Double Secret Lone Pine Probation clause. It's never too early to tilt the playing field toward Green, although the last time it was invoked the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man was seen roaming the deep stacks of Thayer Library. Fingers crossed...
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