D3 All Americans

D3 Mens Lacrosse
ColonelFastBreak
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 4:39 pm

D3 All Americans

Post by ColonelFastBreak »

Here is a stab at the 1st team AA:

A - Keating (F&M)
A - Wolf (Amherst)
A - Nally (RIT)
A - Pfeiffer (York)
M - Pompeo (Salisbury)
M - Gwin (Salisbury)
M - Hoffman (Williams)
M - Klein (Cabrini)
FO - Hodgson (W&L)
FO - Malamphy (Salisbury)
LSM - Usich (Dickinson)
SSDM - McAfee (Amherst)
D - Wycoff (Gettysburg)
D - Broekmate (Tufts)
D - Beck (York)
D - Maruna (RIT)
G - Del Rosario (WAC)

Couldn't decide between Malamphy and Hodgson. They are both great and a bit above the next tier of top Face-off midfielders in division 3.

Usich is the best LSM in Division 3 hands down. It is a shame that Dickinson couldn't earn a bid. Would have been fun to see him play some more.

Keating is fantastic. An excellent all-around attackman. His linemate, Mollihan is also quite good and should find his way onto one of the three AA teams as well. Nally managed to lead RIT in scoring despite missing the first two games of the year.

Having both Pompeo and Gwin on the 1st team may seem like overkill, but they are what make that Salisbury offense go. Without even one of them this year's Salisbury team would not be a national title contender. They just do not seem to have the depth in the midfield and while the attack is very good at what they are asked to do, the midfield initiates the offense. If you wanted to pick one, do it. I would have no real qualms if someone argued to replace anyone other than Hoffman with Barnable.

There are those who may argue against having a Tufts defender on the 1st team, given how many goals they allow. Those people have not watched them play too much. #44 is a heck of a player. Beck is the best defender on the most well organized defense in division 3 and we should give credit where it is due. Wycoff has continue his exceptional career at Gettysburg this year.

Hare from RIT and Davies from Roanoke both had fine seasons, but nobody did more with less around him than Del Rosario from WAC. He deserves recognition.

Other players who may end up on one of the three AA teams:

A: Chlastawa (Bates), Davis (York), Kruug (Cabrini), McNulty (Coast Guard), Mollihan (F&M), Murphy (Tufts), O'Connell (Dickinson), Pittroff (Denison), Witherell (W&L)
M: Barker (Wesleyan), Barnable (RIT), Briggs (F&M), Della Puca (Ithaca), Isaac (RIT), McCann (Union), McCormick (Gettysburg), Phillips (Dickinson), Solberg (Amherst)
FO: Hartwick (Dickinson), Morgan (Trinity), Newhouse (Union), Sasso (York)
LSM: Dyson (Denison), Murphy (Salisbury), Roman (York), Stewart (Williams)
D: Allen (RIT), Broderick (W&L), DeLuca (Cabrini), Gannon (SLU), Malarchuk (Wesleyan), Meadows (Lynchburg), O'Connor (F&M), Sullivan (Amherst)
G: Bohan (Wesleyan), Davies (Roanoke), Hare (RIT)

Will be interesting to see how McNulty is categorized. As a midfielder, I think he is a top 3 team AA. As an attackman he is probably an honorable mention. I only saw CGA play a couple times. He seemed to be lined up at attack the majority of the time, yet CGA lists him as a midfielder. Regardless of position he is an AA.
NYLaxer
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:38 am

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by NYLaxer »

ColonelFastBreak wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:38 am Here is a stab at the 1st team AA:

A - Keating (F&M)
A - Wolf (Amherst)
A - Nally (RIT)
A - Pfeiffer (York)
M - Pompeo (Salisbury)
M - Gwin (Salisbury)
M - Hoffman (Williams)
M - Klein (Cabrini)
FO - Hodgson (W&L)
FO - Malamphy (Salisbury)
LSM - Usich (Dickinson)
SSDM - McAfee (Amherst)
D - Wycoff (Gettysburg)
D - Broekmate (Tufts)
D - Beck (York)
D - Maruna (RIT)
G - Del Rosario (WAC)

I agree with most of these choices with a few substitutions, of course. Nolan Sachs in a heartbeat. His performance is spot on. As for GK (and this is NOT intended to knock Del Rosario's game) UC's GK ended the season standing at the highest save % in the conference, and the lowest goals against for a full-time GK. Del Rosario is a great GK.
Last edited by NYLaxer on Tue May 07, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~~Played in the days when the helmets weren't nearly as cool!
ctbagataway
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:32 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by ctbagataway »

I'd have to toss in a vote for Meadows from Lynchburg at close defense. I have seen most of the players on that list in action, and he has been the most impressive. Reminds me a lot of Joe Fletcher from Loyola in the way he makes very good attackmen go quiet. Feet are perfect, takes great angles and he is strong enough to keep guys from getting topside.
COGULL
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:34 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by COGULL »

Not sure if I'm missing something but I can't see why Josh Melton wouldn't be on anyone's list (other than not being a senior ?!!?)-

The Junior Josh Melton has:
103 Points - 59G 44A SHT% 50.4% -
He'll end up being a 4 year starter (1st line Mid as Freshman)
Hat-Tick in NC game '17 (leading returning scorer following season)
Goal & Assist in NC game '18 (Starting Attack)

Can anyone tell me why he shouldn't be on the list ?
ergit
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by ergit »

Because familiarity creates bias in judgement...
(people are unable to recognize it and unwilling to admit it on this forum, particularly anything related to the ODAC, Centennial or Denison ;) )
Dehuntshigwa’es
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Location: Old Dominion

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by Dehuntshigwa’es »

Winning teams make All Americans, to the victor belong the spoils. AJ Witherell has had another spectacular year, despite that and unless the voting is already done don’t think he will make first team this year and the only reason will be 3 one loss games. Can’t imagine what he’d do playing for Salisbury, Tufts, RIT and Amherst.If he played on any one of those teams he’d be player of the year.
Empirelaxer
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 2:12 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by Empirelaxer »

Maruna didn’t make First Team Liberty League. Ed Winters (Union) and Tyler Burns ( SLU) had the better years
richard
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:14 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by richard »

ergit wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:42 pm Because familiarity creates bias in judgement...
(people are unable to recognize it and unwilling to admit it on this forum, particularly anything related to the ODAC, Centennial or Denison ;) )
Not an ODAC guy here. E8 and Liberty.

Meadows is the best defender this year. No doubt in my mind.
Scarlet
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:46 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by Scarlet »

Last year’s W&L team started 0-3 with losses to York, CNU, and Denison, lost to Lynchburg in ODAC semis, and in OT to Dickinson in the NCAAs, finishing 15-5. Essentially the same record as this year. AJ was 1st Team in 2018. His numbers are a bit lower this year because he missed some time with an injury in the first third of the season. I am confident he will be an All-American, and there is no sense wondering what his career would have been at a different school. He’s been a great player for the school he chose, and will be in the W&L Hall of Fame someday.
MrLax2U
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:09 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by MrLax2U »

Can anyone tell me why he {Melton} shouldn't be on the list ?
I can't imagine Melton not making AA. And several other Gulls not on the Colonel's list.

Regarding AJ Witherell; he's had a great college lax career. He took his team to the conference title and the NCAA playoffs. Whether he plays or watches May 26, he's earned memories to last a lifetime. Hope he gets a nod for AA.
Scarlet
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:46 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by Scarlet »

Amen to that
ColonelFastBreak
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Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by ColonelFastBreak »

COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm Not sure if I'm missing something but I can't see why Josh Melton wouldn't be on anyone's list
I'm happy to provide my thinking on this one, as I certainly considered naming him as a guy who could be named to another AA team. I wouldn't be shocked in anyway if he was on the 3rd or even 2nd team. It was by no means a comprehensive list.
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm He'll end up being a 4 year starter (1st line Mid as Freshman)
Hat-Tick in NC game '17 (leading returning scorer following season)
Goal & Assist in NC game '18 (Starting Attack)
Not sure what any of this has to do with this discussion, though you could make the argument that past production and past honors do have an impact on who wins these awards.
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm The Junior Josh Melton has:
103 Points - 59G 44A SHT% 50.4% -
This is the best argument for Melton being an AA of any level. Production.
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm Can anyone tell me why he shouldn't be on the list ?
Here is my thinking: Melton is not the most important part of the Salisbury offense, nor is he the second most important part (I've already made my feelings on who I think those two players are quite clear). Particularly against better competition, Melton and the other attackmen are dependent on the Salisbury midfield to initiate offense. He is the beneficiary of the slides and switches drawn by Pompeo and Gwin (and on a good day Snyder, though I am sure there haven't been as many good days as the Salisbury faithful would like). Melton can certainly dodge and beat short sticks with impunity and he gets those opportunities when the off-ball movement of the Salisbury offense, along with the dodging of Pompeo and Gwin, creates switches. That isn't to say he cannot dodge against long poles, just that he is not asked to do it as the primary or even secondary option for the Salisbury offense. So, Melton has been great this year playing off of the midfield, but he isn't asked to carry a huge load.

If you want to nitpick about his production, you can look at Salisbury's games against the best teams on their schedule (Gettysburg, Cabrini, York, Stevenson and Lynchburg) and note that he goes from averaging over 6 points a game in all other games (85 points in 14 games) to just over 3 points a game against those select opponents (18 points in 6 games). That's cherry-picking and to see how useful it is you would have to look at the same type of thing for every other attackmen being considered. It would be natural for production to drop against better opponents. By a factor of 2 times? I have no how significant that is.

Regardless, the summary is that while Melton has had an excellent season he has done so in role that I think is easier to fill than the one that, for example, Evan Wolf holds for Amherst. Please note that I also did not list a player like Max Waldbaum from Tufts who has 60 goals while playing primarily and off-ball role for Tufts with some occasional dodging (like in OT of the NESCAC Championship apparently). He is a very good player but is dependent on the talent around him for the majority of his goals. Very different style of offense, but similar because that's the way I look at Melton and the Salisbury attack this year.

Put this way, if you removed Josh Melton from the Salisbury offense, what would happen? I would guess that Cross Ferrarra and Pierre Armstrong would score more points and there would be a drop-off with respect to whoever the third attackman was, but that it would not stop the Gulls from competing for a National Championship, nor from winning the CAC. Coach Berkman might slide Gwin to attack and try and get more out of Emory Wongus or Jarrett Bromwell. Who knows? However, if you removed Luke Keating from F&M, I do not think they make the NCAA tournament. Same goes for AJ Witherell at W&L. Anyways, Melton is great and if he is a 2nd or 3rd team AA, I'll have no qualms. When I watch Salisbury, I just see an offense predicated on their midfield winning matchups.
MrLax2U wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 3:39 pm I can't imagine Melton not making AA. And several other Gulls not on the Colonel's list.
AA voting by coaches around the country is out-dated. We should just send all the AA plaques to Salisbury and let Coach Berkman pass them out.

I imagine you would like Warren, Apgar and maybe Borkowicz listed. Not sure any of them should get anything above HM, but you never know. Warren in particular has been excellent at times, but I couldn't forget that York regular season game so I didn't put him down with the goaltenders. All three are very good players. Anybody else?
thescottharris
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:42 am

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by thescottharris »

Jake Brummett, FOGO at Hampden-Sydney, should be in consideration. 65.1%, won the groundball to himself on approximately 69% of his faceoff attempts for 164 ground balls. Went 15-25 with 7 GBs against Hodgson from W&L, second straight year besting him head to head.
Ace492cave
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 2:18 pm

Re: D3 All Americans

Post by Ace492cave »

ColonelFastBreak wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 5:33 pm
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm Not sure if I'm missing something but I can't see why Josh Melton wouldn't be on anyone's list
I'm happy to provide my thinking on this one, as I certainly considered naming him as a guy who could be named to another AA team. I wouldn't be shocked in anyway if he was on the 3rd or even 2nd team. It was by no means a comprehensive list.
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm He'll end up being a 4 year starter (1st line Mid as Freshman)
Hat-Tick in NC game '17 (leading returning scorer following season)
Goal & Assist in NC game '18 (Starting Attack)
Not sure what any of this has to do with this discussion, though you could make the argument that past production and past honors do have an impact on who wins these awards.
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm The Junior Josh Melton has:
103 Points - 59G 44A SHT% 50.4% -
This is the best argument for Melton being an AA of any level. Production.
COGULL wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:33 pm Can anyone tell me why he shouldn't be on the list ?
Here is my thinking: Melton is not the most important part of the Salisbury offense, nor is he the second most important part (I've already made my feelings on who I think those two players are quite clear). Particularly against better competition, Melton and the other attackmen are dependent on the Salisbury midfield to initiate offense. He is the beneficiary of the slides and switches drawn by Pompeo and Gwin (and on a good day Snyder, though I am sure there haven't been as many good days as the Salisbury faithful would like). Melton can certainly dodge and beat short sticks with impunity and he gets those opportunities when the off-ball movement of the Salisbury offense, along with the dodging of Pompeo and Gwin, creates switches. That isn't to say he cannot dodge against long poles, just that he is not asked to do it as the primary or even secondary option for the Salisbury offense. So, Melton has been great this year playing off of the midfield, but he isn't asked to carry a huge load.

If you want to nitpick about his production, you can look at Salisbury's games against the best teams on their schedule (Gettysburg, Cabrini, York, Stevenson and Lynchburg) and note that he goes from averaging over 6 points a game in all other games (85 points in 14 games) to just over 3 points a game against those select opponents (18 points in 6 games). That's cherry-picking and to see how useful it is you would have to look at the same type of thing for every other attackmen being considered. It would be natural for production to drop against better opponents. By a factor of 2 times? I have no how significant that is.

Regardless, the summary is that while Melton has had an excellent season he has done so in role that I think is easier to fill than the one that, for example, Evan Wolf holds for Amherst. Please note that I also did not list a player like Max Waldbaum from Tufts who has 60 goals while playing primarily and off-ball role for Tufts with some occasional dodging (like in OT of the NESCAC Championship apparently). He is a very good player but is dependent on the talent around him for the majority of his goals. Very different style of offense, but similar because that's the way I look at Melton and the Salisbury attack this year.

Put this way, if you removed Josh Melton from the Salisbury offense, what would happen? I would guess that Cross Ferrarra and Pierre Armstrong would score more points and there would be a drop-off with respect to whoever the third attackman was, but that it would not stop the Gulls from competing for a National Championship, nor from winning the CAC. Coach Berkman might slide Gwin to attack and try and get more out of Emory Wongus or Jarrett Bromwell. Who knows? However, if you removed Luke Keating from F&M, I do not think they make the NCAA tournament. Same goes for AJ Witherell at W&L. Anyways, Melton is great and if he is a 2nd or 3rd team AA, I'll have no qualms. When I watch Salisbury, I just see an offense predicated on their midfield winning matchups.
MrLax2U wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 3:39 pm I can't imagine Melton not making AA. And several other Gulls not on the Colonel's list.
AA voting by coaches around the country is out-dated. We should just send all the AA plaques to Salisbury and let Coach Berkman pass them out.

I imagine you would like Warren, Apgar and maybe Borkowicz listed. Not sure any of them should get anything above HM, but you never know. Warren in particular has been excellent at times, but I couldn't forget that York regular season game so I didn't put him down with the goaltenders. All three are very good players. Anybody else?
[Pfiefer on York only has 76 points. Nally on RIT has 73. I get they are skilled Attackman but being put on the first team is unrealistic. The mideseason all American list was pretty much spot on with who should be where. Also, just getting points off ball does not mean that you are less of a player. Take Carson Kalama for instance. He was an off ball player, but he knew how to move off ball better than anyone. That is how Salisbury has always been a midfield dodging offense with a smart attack that finishes plays and it seems to have worked considering how many all Americans and championships they have...]
ColonelFastBreak
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Re: D3 All Americans

Post by ColonelFastBreak »

Ace492cave wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 7:50 pm [Pfiefer on York only has 76 points.
Try comparing Pfeiffer to Melton in CAC regular season games only. That takes the noise out of the statistics. You are comparing the same thing. You don't have to figure out whether putting up 11 points in a 15 goal win over Geneseo (18-3) including scoring the 16th goal in the 4th quarter is more worthwhile than having 4 points while playing only the 1st quarter of a nine goal win over Bryn Athyn. What about scoring 3 points in a half against Susquehana (final score 12-4)? Is that more or less valuable than scoring 10 points, including 2 goals and an assist in the 4th quarter of a 22-6 win over Illinois Wesleyan?

I don't care if teams leave their starters in longer than others. Coaches have plenty of reason to do so or not, but don't treat all of these points like they are completely equal. Here are the CAC regular season only stats for Pfeiffer and Melton:

Pfeiffer: 22 G & 10 A on 52% SH with 12 GB and 9 TO

Melton: 16 G & 14 A on 48% SH with 6 GB and 7 TO.
Ace492cave wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 7:50 pm Also, just getting points off ball does not mean that you are less of a player.
Nobody is saying that it does, but it does mean you depend on others for your production. A talented off-ball player isn't very valuable without someone to dodge, draw a slide and throw them the ball. Someone who can dodge, draw a slide and make a feed is made better by talented off ball players, but they'll be quite impactful even if everyone else has a low lax IQ.
Ace492cave wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 7:50 pm That is how Salisbury has always been a midfield dodging offense with a smart attack that finishes plays and it seems to have worked considering how many all Americans and championships they have...
We agree that this system works. Nobody can deny that. The fact that a system works or that it produces national championships doesn't make an individual worthy of a 1st team AA nod.
Ace492cave wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 7:50 pm The mideseason all American list was pretty much spot on with who should be where.
Nally was on the 1st team on Inside Lacrosse's mid-season list. Melton was on the 2nd team. My list was of a 1st Team AA group and then players that have impressed me throughout the year who might make one of the other two teams.

Melton is an excellent player who will probably be a 2nd or 3rd team AA. Maybe he'll be a 1st team AA. I don't know. I just don't view him as quite as valuable as the other attackmen I listed. Maybe it just shows what I know. I mean, one of the defensemen that really impressed me this year was only named honorable mention All Liberty League (Good thing they have honorable mention).
Gullible
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Re: D3 All Americans

Post by Gullible »

"The noise out of the statistics" Your posts are a case study in statistical selectivity and you've made some assumptions that are inaccurate.

First, your post assumes Josh Melton is only a finisher. I don't know what games you're watching but he's far more than that. He's one of the top feeders & finishers in the country and has a great mid-range shot. This notion that he doesn't or can't dodge to create space or score is just incorrect. There is a reason why he ran with the first line midfield as a freshman and scored 3 "unassisted" goals in the National Championship game against RIT.

Secondly, This idea that Melton cherry-picks is a joke and your premise about Melton's value vs. Gwin/Pompea doesn't hold water. One of your false premises is that Melton doesn't score against tougher teams yet your endorse two of his teammates that Melton out-performed against the 6 ranked teams you noted- What's more interesting is that when I compare numbers between the the top 3 games, (i.e., York regular season, York CAC & Cabrini) Melton performs even better and ranks 1st in almost every statistical category. Also, your statement about scoring 10-11 in a game would have some merit if Melton's shooting percentage wasn't above 50%. It's not like he's taking a lot of shots per game.

Melton's obviously a quality kid being chosen by his coaches and teammates to be Captain in his Junior year, and Berkman has stated his "his lacrosse IQ is off the charts". One more thing to consider is that if Melton matches just his regular season point total as a senior, He'll move in to 3rd place all time at Salisbury surpassed only by Coffman & Cannone . He's been pretty valuable for the Gulls - I think your selling this kid short.
ColonelFastBreak
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Re: D3 All Americans

Post by ColonelFastBreak »

Gullible wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:25 am Your posts are a case study in statistical selectivity
I know. I said as much:
ColonelFastBreak wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 5:33 pm That's cherry-picking and to see how useful it is you would have to look at the same type of thing for every other attackmen being considered.

Gullible wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:25 am First, your post assumes Josh Melton is only a finisher.
No, I don't:
ColonelFastBreak wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 5:33 pm Melton can certainly dodge and beat short sticks with impunity and he gets those opportunities when the off-ball movement of the Salisbury offense, along with the dodging of Pompeo and Gwin, creates switches. That isn't to say he cannot dodge against long poles, just that he is not asked to do it as the primary or even secondary option for the Salisbury offense.

Gullible wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:25 am Secondly, This idea that Melton cherry-picks is a joke
See above. The term cherry pick was in reference to my own use of statistics in a select group of games. I don't even know what it would mean for the person scoring the goals and assists to be "cherry picking" them.
Gullible wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 2:25 am Melton's obviously a quality kid
Not sure what this has to do with selecting a 1st team AA group.


This horse is beat to death. He is a really good player. I'm just not sure he is one of the 4 best attackmen in division 3 men's lacrosse this year.
MrLax2U
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Re: D3 All Americans

Post by MrLax2U »

Greetings Ace;
I imagine you would like Warren, Apgar and maybe Borkowicz listed.
Apgar for sure. Plus the Colonel already listed Murphy.

Greetings Colonel;
You bring an outsider's view and make some interesting points about Melton. I always thought an AA should carry a team. Make everybody else play above his regular game. He's a leader; gives his teammates a confidence boost.

After the 2010 season Eric Law transferred from Salisbury to Denver and lead the Pioneers to a NC. Some fans think, if he had stayed, he would have helped the Gulls past Stevenson in the 2013 semis and into the title game. Lot of similarities with Melton. Berkman thinks he has that special spark.
ah23
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Re: D3 All Americans

Post by ah23 »

I have to ask: no 1st team shot for Bates' Matt Chlastawa? Second in the country in points per game (6.13) while facing the nation's eighth-toughest schedule and carrying a huge workload every game in Bates' offense (involved in 43% of Bates' goals this year, compared to 39% for Keating/F&M, 31% for Pfeiffer/York and Wolf/Amherst, and 22% for Nally/RIT).

Not sure if anyone caught the Tuesday night Tufts-Bates game from a few weeks ago, but he was matched up with Broekmate (projected 1T AA defenseman) all night and put on a clinic. Had 5g/3a with 3 unassisted goals off dodges and a fourth after catching an end of the half goalie heave in a crowd near midfield and beating everyone down the field. Bates is obviously not of the same caliber as RIT or York - low top twenty vs. top five - but this is an individual honor (and anyway, Keating's inclusion suggests you don't have to play on a top team to merit a spot).

Any thoughts?
richard
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Re: D3 All Americans

Post by richard »

I watched the Denison game vs Concordia last night. I might be tempted to give some AA consideration to the Concordia keeper Wohlford. He was impressive in and out of the cage.
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