Rules question: Wing play

D1 Mens Lacrosse
Scarlet
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:46 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Scarlet »

ABV 8.3% wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 10:15 am Last I read the NCAA rule book, there was nothing specific about leaving the two faceoff guys alone while battling for the ball. If someone could find it, that would be great. I think it's just an unwritten rule.

Goalies can faceoff. You can also face off lefty.

Please stop with the "lets change the faceoffs" discussion . Yale lost because UVA played great defense. Sticks on the hands & arms, disrupting shots and passes. Yale lost because they won 75% of the faceoffs , but would have won if it were 65% ? Is this the argument?
Rule 5, Section 6, Part d: Initiating contact with a player who has any part of his body on the ground other than his feet is an illegal body check. While engaged in the faceoff, players have their hands, forearms, and/or knees in contact with the ground, so initiating contact would be an illegal body check.
wgdsr
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by wgdsr »

hoodat and scarlet are correct.
in addition... while a faceoff, you are not allowed to "hold" the faceoff man, including his stick, until the exit happens past tense. different than other places on the field,
so the only engagement you could really have is checking his stick (without holding it). not a great proposition if it turns out you're not really helping and many times putting yourself out of position as a wing.
not an nc$$ ref, but i did sleep in a holiday inn express last night.
xxxxxxx
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by xxxxxxx »

steel_hop wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 8:42 am
shoothi wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:08 pm I am not advocating removing the face off.

I believe a person who just faces off is a specialist....long ago....yes long ago, there was no face off specialist, just two middies who went to face off....there was some real good ones that could also play midfield. The role of the face off specialist came about several years ago and now has morphed into what we have now.
That is my view. The face-off position has become way too dominate of an issue. Irelan et al. are certainly playing within the rules but I don't think the rules should be set so that any individual face-off guy should be winning 75%+ every time. The rules were changed about 5-6 years ago because of the motorcycle grip to lower individual win percentages and I think the rule committee needs to go back and look at getting top individual players down to only 65% tops. Face-offs should be more 50/50 then it is now.

Lowering the face-off win percentage (I'm not an expert enough to determine how best to do that) would also lower the number of FOGOs because you don't want him getting caught on defense if he isn't winning 70%+.

You would think the shot clock would help this issue in the sense that a team with a dominate FOGO can't hog the ball (and slow the game down if they want). But, now it allows teams that play fast with a dominate FOGO to reap the rewards of taking a team out by halftime.
While we are at it, should we make it so Goalies can't have 75% save percentages? I feel the shot clock has really helped the situation. In the Penn State game vs Yale TD was dominant and Penn State couldn't make a stop to get the ball back. I think their goalie made one save in the first quarter giving up ten goals. Contrast that to the Virginia game where TD was also dominant but UVA goalie and defense made great stops. You have a different game. I think the face off situation is a great unique part of the game and in a pretty good place right now.
xxxxxxx
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by xxxxxxx »

wgdsr wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 1:25 pm hoodat and scarlet are correct.
in addition... while a faceoff, you are not allowed to "hold" the faceoff man, including his stick, until the exit happens past tense. different than other places on the field,
so the only engagement you could really have is checking his stick (without holding it). not a great proposition if it turns out you're not really helping and many times putting yourself out of position as a wing.
not an nc$$ ref, but i did sleep in a holiday inn express last night.
I believe in the new PLL they are going to allow some form of contact from the wings, it may be sticks only, I am not sure, We will see this weekend.
michaeldwilson
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 12:02 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by michaeldwilson »

Thanks for the terrific clarification, everyone. Much appreciated!

Mike
NElaxtalent
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:23 am

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by NElaxtalent »

Face offs are fine and a unique thrilling part of the sport.
Thrilling???

To me, this is the least exciting aspect of lacrosse (unless you or your kid are/were a FOGO).

The baseball equivalent is watching the pitcher bat in a NL game and hearing from "purists" how the sacrifice bunt and double switch are fascinating nuances of the game.

I've never used my DVR to replay a FO...

Fwiw we had the 2nd half & OT of Duke/UVA put on in a sports bar. Several non-lax people loved it and listened to the pre-Game 2 hype (esp Ament & O'Keefe vs defending Champs). However, by the end of Q1 of PSU/Yale they'd completely lost interest. Niche sport nuances will keep NCAA Lax behind women's softball ratings-wise... The game is exciting the "1v1 FO wrestling" is not. No one obsesses about the FO in hockey, it's a part of the game, but not the single most important factor.

The Mano a Mano, pinch & pop battle with plastic tweezers is boring (& too influential in a team sport). Find a way to get it back to a 3v3 GB battle.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

NElaxtalent wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 2:32 pm
Face offs are fine and a unique thrilling part of the sport.
Thrilling???

To me, this is the least exciting aspect of lacrosse (unless you or your kid are/were a FOGO).

The baseball equivalent is watching the pitcher bat in a NL game and hearing from "purists" how the sacrifice bunt and double switch are fascinating nuances of the game.

I've never used my DVR to replay a FO...

Fwiw we had the 2nd half & OT of Duke/UVA put on in a sports bar. Several non-lax people loved it and listened to the pre-Game 2 hype (esp Ament & O'Keefe vs defending Champs). However, by the end of Q1 of PSU/Yale they'd completely lost interest. Niche sport nuances will keep NCAA Lax behind women's softball ratings-wise... The game is exciting the "1v1 FO wrestling" is not. No one obsesses about the FO in hockey, it's a part of the game, but not the single most important factor.

The Mano a Mano, pinch & pop battle with plastic tweezers is boring (& too influential in a team sport). Find a way to get it back to a 3v3 GB battle.
Have the ref drop the ball like hockey or roll it and not allow the player to withhold the ball with the back of the crosse....
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
NElaxtalent
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by NElaxtalent »

Lots of great options available. I'd be fine with any of them that get it back to the exciting team sport it is after the FO.

In basketball, the guy who does the tip can't be the 1st one to possess it.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

NElaxtalent wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 2:44 pm Lots of great options available. I'd be fine with any of them that get it back to the exciting team sport it is after the FO.

In basketball, the guy who does the tip can't be the 1st one to possess it.
I had not thought about that. James Naismith was actually a lacrosse player before inventing basketball......
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
palaxoff
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by palaxoff »

Niche sport nuances will keep NCAA Lax behind women's softball ratings-wise...
Oh I thought there was so much Women's Softball on TV because of the young ladies. :lol:

Face off part of what make lax Unique. How bout special stick for facing off that do away with all the torquing of heads.
RumorMill
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:30 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by RumorMill »

I'm surprised people on here have different opinions about this. :D

I like the faceoff just the way it is. If they change it to some other option/method/technique/rules, etc., coaches and teams will just adapt to whatever that is to give their team the best chance of winning. It's difficult reading opinions that want to change the game because someone is good at what they're supposed to be doing (within the current rules of play)... while we're at it, let's just give everyone trophies!
xxxxxxx
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by xxxxxxx »

NElaxtalent wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 2:32 pm
Face offs are fine and a unique thrilling part of the sport.
Thrilling???

To me, this is the least exciting aspect of lacrosse (unless you or your kid are/were a FOGO).

The baseball equivalent is watching the pitcher bat in a NL game and hearing from "purists" how the sacrifice bunt and double switch are fascinating nuances of the game.

I've never used my DVR to replay a FO...

Fwiw we had the 2nd half & OT of Duke/UVA put on in a sports bar. Several non-lax people loved it and listened to the pre-Game 2 hype (esp Ament & O'Keefe vs defending Champs). However, by the end of Q1 of PSU/Yale they'd completely lost interest. Niche sport nuances will keep NCAA Lax behind women's softball ratings-wise... The game is exciting the "1v1 FO wrestling" is not. No one obsesses about the FO in hockey, it's a part of the game, but not the single most important factor.

The Mano a Mano, pinch & pop battle with plastic tweezers is boring (& too influential in a team sport). Find a way to get it back to a 3v3 GB battle.
y
So you think the five goals scored by TD and Arceri in the final four were boring? Did you realize that without a face off and down by two goals with less than two minutes to play UVA has no real chance to win the game vs Duke? Every OT face off is very exciting to me. Yes I think it is a thrilling part of the game. Do I enjoy two guys stuck in an extended scrum? No but I'll take it over the alternatives.
foreverlax
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by foreverlax »

Agreed.

Each year there may be a handful or less of true 70%+...even fewer can actually play lacrosse. Most of the studs annually are 65% and there is a big gap between the top and bottom of that group as well.

Aside from Baptiste, TD and arguably Woodall, who else has been "dominate" since they changed the grip and carry rules? Stephen Kelly was the #1 coming in and finished his career under 55%. Same with RG Keenan.
Cheeseandcrackers
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:33 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Cheeseandcrackers »

Relatively minor rule changes to increase the importance of wing play and overall lacrosse skill on the part of FOGOs (without changing FO mechanics):

1. A/D are locked in the box until the ball is advanced into one of the boxes (no release on possession)
2. Ball cannot be carried, passed, batted or kicked back into your own defending box.

So, Team A "wins" the FO by winning the ball backward and picking it up. Under today's rules that ball is passed back to the goalie 95% of the time. This is followed by a clear attempt that succeeds 85% of the time (somebody probably has that stat). Under this change the three Team A mids have to advance the ball up the field and get it into the box without getting it taken away. Meanwhile Team A's attack has to stay in the box, making it easier for Team B to lock them off. I think this will create a "game within the game" on a lot of FOs with turnovers and GBs between the RLs that's great for the spectators. And your FOGO better be able to handle.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

foreverlax wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 4:05 pm Agreed.

Each year there may be a handful or less of true 70%+...even fewer can actually play lacrosse. Most of the studs annually are 65% and there is a big gap between the top and bottom of that group as well.

Aside from Baptiste, TD and arguably Woodall, who else has been "dominate" since they changed the grip and carry rules? Stephen Kelly was the #1 coming in and finished his career under 55%. Same with RG Keenan.
Throw the ball down and not allow guys to use the back of their sticks to withhold the ball. This will improve tempo and created more unsettled play in the middle of the field.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
NElaxtalent
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:23 am

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by NElaxtalent »

I'm not opposed to a FO, I just don't want it to be 1v1 30-35x per game. I'd be fine with "anything" that is contested by multiple players from each team (3v3).

A team game shouldn't be dependent/determined based on a single 1v1 match-up. Just my $0.02

Some great options have been suggested. I'm fine with any of them that make it a "contested GB" vs "our FOGO is better than your FOGO" so your TEAM loses.
NElaxtalent
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:23 am

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by NElaxtalent »

Throw the ball down and not allow guys to use the back of their sticks to withhold the ball. This will improve tempo and created more unsettled play in the middle of the field.
Like a hockey FO? Sounds fun/fast/contested/chaotic ... I like it
NElaxtalent
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:23 am

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by NElaxtalent »

Timely .... PLL face-off rule changes & interesting video from Greg Gurenlian:

https://twitter.com/GregBeast32/status/ ... 47712?s=19
AreaLax
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by AreaLax »

Here are rules for the new PLL
● The face-off area will consist of two lines at midfield (6-inches apart along a 4-inch line)

● Face-off players will position their sticks along the lines outlined on the diagram below

● Sticks will line up with the ball closer to the top of the head

● After the whistle and clamp, wing players are permitted to use their sticks to dislodge the ball from a face-off lockup. e.g. Wing players can poke and/or rake the ball out, but cannot body-check a face-off player. Standard infractions apply (push and/or slash)

● Once the ball is clamped, the player has one step to remove the ball from the back of the stick. This must be performed in one continuous motion

● If a player commits an illegal procedure foul prior to the faceoff, the opposing team will be awarded possession, and the infracting player will be prohibited from participation in the next face-off

● Hands are not permitted on the head of the stick at any point

● Ball is placed before the players enter their stance. The official’s verbal queue will be “down, set” followed by blowing the whistle
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

NElaxtalent wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 5:13 pm
Throw the ball down and not allow guys to use the back of their sticks to withhold the ball. This will improve tempo and created more unsettled play in the middle of the field.
Like a hockey FO? Sounds fun/fast/contested/chaotic ... I like it
Yes. Just throw it down quickly and let the scramble ensue.....the bounce of the ball adds some variety and makes it more unpredictable.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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