Rules question: Wing play

D1 Mens Lacrosse
michaeldwilson
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 12:02 pm

Rules question: Wing play

Post by michaeldwilson »

Hello all,

What rule prevents the wings from engaging in the faceoff when two FOGOs are fighting over a clamped ball? They always pull up rather than playing man-ball or trying to dislodge the ball too.

Thanks,

Mike
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14443
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by youthathletics »

This should answer your question....from the NCAA 2019 Rules book.

Interference
SECTION 8. A player may not interfere in any manner with the free movement
of an opponent, except when that opponent has possession of the ball, the ball
is in flight and within 5 yards of the players, or both players are within 5 yards
of a loose ball.


The key here is that no one has possession of the ball, therefore a wing player cannot make contact.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
shoothi
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:22 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by shoothi »

Go back to the days of being able to hit the face off guy....he would have a mental clock in his head, knowing sooner rather than later, unless the wings were riding the guys out, a blow was coming or the wings could go for the ball. Enough standing around.

Pet peeve of mine as I believe the face off position is wayyyyyyy to specialized. Just the acronym alone FOGO (face off get off) is some what offensive to a player. Either you can play someform of midfield, ( offense or defense) or you can't. If not, get better before you go out there.


My understanding, this special face off person designate, was put in to give some kids at all levels a chance to play....now look at it. Heck the guy from Yale is in consideration for "the best player in the game". Not a knock on him, he is just going by the rules....but come on, to be thought of as the best player in game, when your own position name, FOGO, indicates you get off the field after face off....ridiculous.


Just my 2 cents
faircornell
Posts: 1633
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by faircornell »

I could be wrong, since both players are within five yards of the ball some contact might be okay. However, since the FOGOs are crouched and extremely close to each other, the wing player initiating contact might hinder his own man from gaining possession, or be called for a push or unnecessary roughness.
Last edited by faircornell on Tue May 28, 2019 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chuckman
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:09 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Chuckman »

It looked to me in the Va vs Yale game that one of the wings was trying to lift the face off mans stick up while clamped on ball with other face off man.
a fan
Posts: 17723
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 6:27 pm This should answer your question....from the NCAA 2019 Rules book.

Interference
SECTION 8. A player may not interfere in any manner with the free movement
of an opponent, except when that opponent has possession of the ball, the ball
is in flight and within 5 yards of the players, or both players are within 5 yards
of a loose ball.


The key here is that no one has possession of the ball, therefore a wing player cannot make contact.
It's a loose ball, is it not? Yes. So unless there is a rule specific to face offs?

I can't find anything in 2019's Rule 4, Section 3 on facing off preventing wingmen from checking a fogo's stick, for example.

Where are the refs on the board?
xxxxxxx
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by xxxxxxx »

shoothi wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:27 pm Go back to the days of being able to hit the face off guy....he would have a mental clock in his head, knowing sooner rather than later, unless the wings were riding the guys out, a blow was coming or the wings could go for the ball. Enough standing around.

Pet peeve of mine as I believe the face off position is wayyyyyyy to specialized. Just the acronym alone FOGO (face off get off) is some what offensive to a player. Either you can play someform of midfield, ( offense or defense) or you can't. If not, get better before you go out there.


My understanding, this special face off person designate, was put in to give some kids at all levels a chance to play....now look at it. Heck the guy from Yale is in consideration for "the best player in the game". Not a knock on him, he is just going by the rules....but come on, to be thought of as the best player in game, when your own position name, FOGO, indicates you get off the field after face off....ridiculous.


Just my 2 cents
Considering that five goals were scored by face off specialists in the D1 final four, I think they can play some form of midfield. Face offs were part of the game long before anyone though about giving kids at any level a chance to play. By this logic one could say goalies are way too specialized too. Face offs are fine and a unique thrilling part of the sport. Without face offs UVA doesn’t come back vs Duke, and a dominating face off performance doesn’t guarantee victory, just ask Yale.
shoothi
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:22 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by shoothi »

I am not advocating removing the face off.

I believe a person who just faces off is a specialist....long ago....yes long ago, there was no face off specialist, just two middies who went to face off....there was some real good ones that could also play midfield. The role of the face off specialist came about several years ago and now has morphed into what we have now.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 14443
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:56 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 6:27 pm This should answer your question....from the NCAA 2019 Rules book.

Interference
SECTION 8. A player may not interfere in any manner with the free movement
of an opponent, except when that opponent has possession of the ball, the ball
is in flight and within 5 yards of the players, or both players are within 5 yards
of a loose ball.


The key here is that no one has possession of the ball, therefore a wing player cannot make contact.
It's a loose ball, is it not? Yes. So unless there is a rule specific to face offs?

I can't find anything in 2019's Rule 4, Section 3 on facing off preventing wingmen from checking a fogo's stick, for example.

Where are the refs on the board?
It’s written as the face off is treated almost like the crease....a special unique consideration, outside the field of play.

I interpreted it as “ any contact with either of the two in the act of a “faceoff” while no possession is awarded is “interference”.

I believe there is also something in there about making contact with a player while they are in contact with the ground.....not on their feet.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
Chitown
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:28 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by Chitown »

Interesting question.

I faced off in the olden days. The object was to get the ball "out" or win it fast, because the wing players could run in and level you when you were in that crouch position or just coming out with the ball. I had my shoulder separated in the week before the Maryland game, and that really hurt.

I "understood" that the rules were changed to prevent that sort of hit, because the face-off middie is defenseless when low and fighting for the ball.


Maybe someone who has played recently would know the rules.
DocBarrister
Posts: 6104
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by DocBarrister »

Chitown wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 10:42 pm Interesting question.

I faced off in the olden days. The object was to get the ball "out" or win it fast, because the wing players could run in and level you when you were in that crouch position or just coming out with the ball. I had my shoulder separated in the week before the Maryland game, and that really hurt.

I "understood" that the rules were changed to prevent that sort of hit, because the face-off middie is defenseless when low and fighting for the ball.


Maybe someone who has played recently would know the rules.
Didn’t players in those days also have metal spikes on their shoulder pads, elbow pads, and helmets so that they could mortally wound the enemy?!? Must have been a brutal “game” in those days ... indeed, a game to the death!!! :shock: :o

You must have received a lot of blows to the head when facing off, Chitown. Not suggestin’ anything ... just notin’ for the record. :?

DocBarrister ;)
@DocBarrister
steel_hop
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by steel_hop »

shoothi wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 8:08 pm I am not advocating removing the face off.

I believe a person who just faces off is a specialist....long ago....yes long ago, there was no face off specialist, just two middies who went to face off....there was some real good ones that could also play midfield. The role of the face off specialist came about several years ago and now has morphed into what we have now.
That is my view. The face-off position has become way too dominate of an issue. Irelan et al. are certainly playing within the rules but I don't think the rules should be set so that any individual face-off guy should be winning 75%+ every time. The rules were changed about 5-6 years ago because of the motorcycle grip to lower individual win percentages and I think the rule committee needs to go back and look at getting top individual players down to only 65% tops. Face-offs should be more 50/50 then it is now.

Lowering the face-off win percentage (I'm not an expert enough to determine how best to do that) would also lower the number of FOGOs because you don't want him getting caught on defense if he isn't winning 70%+.

You would think the shot clock would help this issue in the sense that a team with a dominate FOGO can't hog the ball (and slow the game down if they want). But, now it allows teams that play fast with a dominate FOGO to reap the rewards of taking a team out by halftime.
ABV 8.3%
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by ABV 8.3% »

Last I read the NCAA rule book, there was nothing specific about leaving the two faceoff guys alone while battling for the ball. If someone could find it, that would be great. I think it's just an unwritten rule.

Goalies can faceoff. You can also face off lefty.

Please stop with the "lets change the faceoffs" discussion . Yale lost because UVA played great defense. Sticks on the hands & arms, disrupting shots and passes. Yale lost because they won 75% of the faceoffs , but would have won if it were 65% ? Is this the argument?
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
smoova
Posts: 982
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:35 am

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by smoova »

I have no more problem with a dominant faceoff specialist than I would with a dominant goalie or attacker, but I am a proponent of complete lacrosse players. That said, I also respect the amount of time and effort many kids have dedicated to perfecting their faceoff techniques.

As a result, I'd love to see a rule that only permits teams to substitute long sticks for short sticks until there had been a possession change following a faceoff. In other words, if you have an LSM on a wing and you win the faceoff, you can sub the LSM for a short stick, but your shorty wing and your faceoff specialist must stay on until the first change of possession. This would still permit the use of faceoff specialists, but would require them to be able to play both offense and defense and would require teams to have at least two good faceoff specialists since their top specialist would get a lot more run.
User avatar
HooDat
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by HooDat »

my understanding is that it is linked to the rule against making contact with a player on the ground.

I wouldn't mind seeing something that allows gradual pressure, or something, where you can't t-off on the FOGO's but you can apply pressure to move the other team's FOGO. But I don't really mean it, because I am against the idea of changing rules all the time. My basic instinct is quit tinkering.

Even the "greatest FOGO to walk the earth" was capable of being neutralized in the title game. I like the runs that face offs create.

It seems to be working fine....
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
ABV 8.3%
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by ABV 8.3% »

The top 20 players in NCAA faceoff winning percentage, only five were on a team that were invited to the tournament. Think on that for a moment while contemplating rule changes.
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
ABV 8.3%
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by ABV 8.3% »

HooDat wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 10:41 am my understanding is that it is linked to the rule against making contact with a player on the ground.

I wouldn't mind seeing something that allows gradual pressure, or something, where you can't t-off on the FOGO's but you can apply pressure to move the other team's FOGO. But I don't really mean it, because I am against the idea of changing rules all the time. My basic instinct is quit tinkering.

Even the "greatest FOGO to walk the earth" was capable of being neutralized in the title game. I like the runs that face offs create.

It seems to be working fine....
It's body contact, you can still check the stick and attempt to take the ball away. If it weren't the case, couldn't you just walk on your knees straight to the goal? ;)
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
User avatar
HooDat
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by HooDat »

ABV 8.3% wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 10:15 am You can also face off lefty.
actually no you can't:

3 b. 4.: The right hand may not touch any part of the head of the
crosse. The player’s feet may not touch his crosse. Both hands and feet
of each player must be to the left of the throat of his crosse.
Each player
must be positioned so his entire body is to the left of the throat of his
crosse.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
User avatar
HooDat
Posts: 2372
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by HooDat »

Illegal Body Check
SECTION 6. Illegal body checking includes the following actions:
a. The body checking of an opponent who is not in possession of the ball or
within 5 yards of a loose ball.
b. Initiating contact with an opponent from the rear or at or below the waist.
c. Initiating contact with an opponent above the shoulders of the opponent.
To be legal, a body check must be below the neck, and both hands of the
player applying the body check must remain in contact with his crosse.
Note: If a player is about to be body checked turns his back, ducks or jumps in such a
manner as to make what started to be a legal check appear illegal, no foul is committed
by the player applying the body check. The initial contact, not any secondary contact,
shall determine whether a body check is legal. No official should make the call “from
the rear” or “below the waist,” unless he sees the initial contact.
d. Initiating contact with an opponent who has any part of his body other than
his feet on the ground.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
a fan
Posts: 17723
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: Rules question: Wing play

Post by a fan »

Ah, so the player's hands are still on the ground during the faceoff. Well spotted, HooDat.

What about stickchecks?

Are there seriously no NCAA refs on the board anymore who can answer these questions?
Post Reply

Return to “D1 MENS LACROSSE”