Under Armour All-Americans

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Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

admin wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:33 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:30 amYou sure it wasn’t an 8/31 cut off?
90% sure. it was based on birth year. 1/1-12/31. with this said, i'm not young. i.e. plenty of time for this to change.
Ok. Today, “competitive” lacrosse players play down. This does not happen in soccer and hockey. Even AAU basketball has a limit on the number of “over age” players that a team can roster.
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admin
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by admin »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:12 amEven AAU basketball has a limit on the number of “over age” players that a team can roster.
it's kind of funny. they recognize it and just make it part of the rules of the game.
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Matnum PI
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

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not hate for me either. but i don't deal with this issue with my kids. nor did i deal with it in any real way (though classmates disagree) when i was a younger man. kids stayed back, did PG years, etc. but it never dawned on me, then or now, that it was being done to get a competitive advantage on the field. 9 out of 10 times, it was to catch-up in the classroom. That aside, i have a family member (and others) who is hyper-competitive. this family member adopted a son and... They bought (my language, not theirs) the best son. his biological parents are physically the best... the son went to the best grade and high school... plays the best sports, takes part in the best extra-curricular... (for the record, he's 6' 5" and never made a varsity team)... he's going to the best college (just in case this isn't annoying you like it annoys me... the school was Hopkins. :) ) and part of the best major/program... he got the best job, lives in the best city, etc. You get the idea. anyway, along the way, they held him back a year. explicitly, to get a competitive advantage. while at JHU, they told him (and told me about this with pride... in their minds, they're the best parents) to miss tests so he could get the questions from classmates so he could do better on the test when he takes the make-up test. And, in all cases, what they're doing is "just smart". i could go on but you get the idea. yesterday and today, i played and play this silly game because i love it. it's like a cool breeze. just feels good. and... others relate to this game differently. relate to life differently. and i like keeping my distance from them and this mindset. not hate. just not my cup of tea.
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wahoomurf
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by wahoomurf »

When/if BYU moves from Club to D-1 status,folks that played as 18 year old freshman will return for their sophomore season as 21 year olds.Eligibility?
wgdsr
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by wgdsr »

an exception just like military.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Matnum PI wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:21 am not hate for me either. but i don't deal with this issue with my kids. nor did i deal with it in any real way (though classmates disagree) when i was a younger man. kids stayed back, did PG years, etc. but it never dawned on me, then or now, that it was being done to get a competitive advantage on the field. 9 out of 10 times, it was to catch-up in the classroom. That aside, i have a family member (and others) who is hyper-competitive. this family member adopted a son and... They bought (my language, not theirs) the best son. his biological parents are physically the best... the son went to the best grade and high school... plays the best sports, takes part in the best extra-curricular... (for the record, he's 6' 5" and never made a varsity team)... he's going to the best college (just in case this isn't annoying you like it annoys me... the school was Hopkins. :) ) and part of the best major/program... he got the best job, lives in the best city, etc. You get the idea. anyway, along the way, they held him back a year. explicitly, to get a competitive advantage. while at JHU, they told him (and told me about this with pride... in their minds, they're the best parents) to miss tests so he could get the questions from classmates so he could do better on the test when he takes the make-up test. And, in all cases, what they're doing is "just smart". i could go on but you get the idea. yesterday and today, i played and play this silly game because i love it. it's like a cool breeze. just feels good. and... others relate to this game differently. relate to life differently. and i like keeping my distance from them and this mindset. not hate. just not my cup of tea.

They should be in a movie!
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
laxpere
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by laxpere »

Dip&Dunk wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:51 am
CC10 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:09 am Fanlax999, not sure why all the hate, my son PG'd with a few others, yes they turned 20 freshman year but landed at Brown(2), G'town, ND, Harvard, NC. In my opinion, no great rush to work 40+ yrs. Alot of other non athletes are entering late as well with Gap years, taking 5 years to complete college.etc. So age differences is not a big deal when the enter the working world.
Not "hate" but not sure the trend is healthy.
1. Hate to broad brush "all" private schools but each one that recruited my son started off their pitch with dropping him back a year. It was presented like it was assumed. Son does not need to drop back for any academic reason.
2. Service academy's send their lax players (and football, and soccer, etc.) to either their prep school or a year PG (usually with Foundation funding assistance) as a matter of course and have lost some top 100 recruits just for this reason under last coach. This is their way of getting a red shirt year.
3. The growth of PG schools dedicated just for athletes is growing. PG for academics is a very good reason in my opinion. Not convinced otherwise.
4. 5 years to graduate from college in my experience (3 kids through college) is a major switching issue. Starting college at 20+ in no way solves this issue. So if all things are equal, starting college at 20 + 5 years = 25 y.o. for the undergrad. At this age you are starting to push up against health care issues. Full time student or not, depending on your status, at as early as 24 you might have to pay a supplemental to keep them on your policy. I know this first hand.
5. At 25, first time job applicants are competing against post grad (MS/MBA/MA) applicants.
6. Bottom line: Lax is expensive enough. If you are reading this blog you know what I mean. Now add one or two more of the most expensive years on at the end? Seriously? Lax is not life. This trend is wrong.
I agree with the conclusion that the trend is not healthy. A couple of observations/questions.
1. I suggest that you run as fast as you can because the coach only cares about lacrosse, not academics. There might be some cases where it makes sense; you live in a non-hotbed state or the kid made a stupid decision. You are doing the coach a favor because he is essentially saying that you aren't good enough now or smart enough but go prove it and I'll take you in a year. He has a free option because there are no guarantees. Plus, it isn't cheap at $65-$75k/year.
2. Service academies are different and I think that the prep school serves a broader purpose than red shirting. Transitioning to military life and team building are important reasons. Yes, some opt out because they find out that it is much tougher than they expected (academically and physically) and the grass is always greener. But I would argue that it is better to find out at the prep school than at the academy where they can't be replaced (no transfers) and they have taken a deserving kid's spot.
3. When PG schools become a business, like sports academies, it probably won't end well. Build up or improve your academic record, but strictly for athletics? Playing a D-I sport has become like a full-time job and coaches are demanding, but academics should be the primary consideration.
4. Are you saying that it encourages kids to opt for the five year plan instead of graduating on time? Health care might be an issue, but seems very inconsequential.
5. Not sure that companies recruit based on age. Maybe more by work experience?
6. As Magnum PI says, it's a game and you should play it for fun. The more fun that you take out of it, the more it becomes work.

At the end of the day, the hate or criticism of the PG seems based on the outliers who try to game the system. Those parents might not be cheating (except for the parents who encourage the kid to miss an exam so that he can find out the questions), but they are crossing into that gray area. While it might be "right" to them, it is unethical to most of us.
“The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall.” Vince Lombardi
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are...." John Wooden
laxpere
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by laxpere »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:03 am
Matnum PI wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:21 am not hate for me either. but i don't deal with this issue with my kids. nor did i deal with it in any real way (though classmates disagree) when i was a younger man. kids stayed back, did PG years, etc. but it never dawned on me, then or now, that it was being done to get a competitive advantage on the field. 9 out of 10 times, it was to catch-up in the classroom. That aside, i have a family member (and others) who is hyper-competitive. this family member adopted a son and... They bought (my language, not theirs) the best son. his biological parents are physically the best... the son went to the best grade and high school... plays the best sports, takes part in the best extra-curricular... (for the record, he's 6' 5" and never made a varsity team)... he's going to the best college (just in case this isn't annoying you like it annoys me... the school was Hopkins. :) ) and part of the best major/program... he got the best job, lives in the best city, etc. You get the idea. anyway, along the way, they held him back a year. explicitly, to get a competitive advantage. while at JHU, they told him (and told me about this with pride... in their minds, they're the best parents) to miss tests so he could get the questions from classmates so he could do better on the test when he takes the make-up test. And, in all cases, what they're doing is "just smart". i could go on but you get the idea. yesterday and today, i played and play this silly game because i love it. it's like a cool breeze. just feels good. and... others relate to this game differently. relate to life differently. and i like keeping my distance from them and this mindset. not hate. just not my cup of tea.
They should be in a movie!
A Rick Singer client? Great life lessons for the kid!
There are more than a few best parents out there and good to keep distance.
“The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall.” Vince Lombardi
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are...." John Wooden
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Matnum PI
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by Matnum PI »

laxpere wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:19 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:03 am They should be in a movie!
A Rick Singer client? Great life lessons for the kid!
There are more than a few best parents out there and good to keep distance.
I think, today, this perspective is common. In numbers. How is this different than, I'll hold him back a year. Heck, two. He'll do better both academically and athletically. it's just smart...
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Cheeseandcrackers
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by Cheeseandcrackers »

We would all agree that a career in lacrosse (player, coach, business) is not likely for these high achievers, right? So, we are talking about postponing the start of work life until age 25 minimum or 27 (MBA), 28 (JD), 32 (MD). All so that the kid can use lax to get into a better college? I just don't see the payoff.
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by smoova »

laxpere wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:14 am At the end of the day, the hate or criticism of the PG seems based on the outliers who try to game the system. Those parents might not be cheating (except for the parents who encourage the kid to miss an exam so that he can find out the questions), but they are crossing into that gray area. While it might be "right" to them, it is unethical to most of us.
I think this is accurate. IME, the PG/reclassification practice is just another way for affluent parents to use their resources to gain an advantage for their kids ... at the expense of kids/families with fewer resources. Every time I hear someone bemoan affirmative action, I think about words like "PG" and "reclassify." Amusing ... and sad.
cornfed
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by cornfed »

I regard to the discussion of holding kids back..Read chapter 1 of Malcom Gladwell's book Outliers. He discusses the benefits of being older than your peers in athletics by analyzing the Canadian junior hockey league and European soccer. Relates well to this discussion.
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by thetruth »

Pannell, Myles Jones, Gutterding, etc, etc... and numerous other AAs all did a PG year. As well as many great successful business people, coaches, teachers, parents, etc, etc...
I suppose you guys all think Bill Belichick and his parents were cheaters because he did a PG year at Andover.
Sorry folks, life isn't a level playing field. You can either complain about it or work hard to prevail.
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by smoova »

thetruth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:34 pm Should change the name of this thread to Sanctimonious Pontificators.
Pannell, Myles Jones, Gutterding, etc, etc... and numerous other AAs all did a PG year. As well as many great successful business people, coaches, teachers, parents, etc, etc...
I suppose you guys all think Bill Belichick and his parents were cheaters because he did a PG year at Andover.
Sorry folks, life isn't a level playing field. You can either complain about it or work hard to prevail.
Thanks for posting. All this time, I'd failed to recognize that 16 year-olds playing against 14 year-olds is really just the older kids "working hard to prevail." Learn something every day!
thetruth
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by thetruth »

smoova wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:51 pm Thanks for posting. All this time, I'd failed to recognize that 16 year-olds playing against 14 year-olds is really just the older kids "working hard to prevail." Learn something every day!
I'm talking about PGs not 14 year olds and 16 year olds.
But life ain't fair even when you're 14.
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by laxpere »

smoova wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:51 pm
thetruth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:34 pm Should change the name of this thread to Sanctimonious Pontificators.
Pannell, Myles Jones, Gutterding, etc, etc... and numerous other AAs all did a PG year. As well as many great successful business people, coaches, teachers, parents, etc, etc...
I suppose you guys all think Bill Belichick and his parents were cheaters because he did a PG year at Andover.
Sorry folks, life isn't a level playing field. You can either complain about it or work hard to prevail.
Thanks for posting. All this time, I'd failed to recognize that 16 year-olds playing against 14 year-olds is really just the older kids "working hard to prevail." Learn something every day!
You're right that PG years can be beneficial. It is all about choice and what's right for the kid and family. I am guessing here, but those names and other AAs may have benefitted academically from a PG year because most of them probably didn't need it to compete athletically.

There are cases where hold backs might be different story as pointed out, but you're right that life is all about working hard and overcoming obstacles to succeed. Life can be brutally unfair, but buck up and try harder. No quarter given, no mercy shown.
“The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall.” Vince Lombardi
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are...." John Wooden
thetruth
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by thetruth »

laxpere wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:28 pm You're right that PG years can be beneficial. It is all about choice and what's right for the kid and family. I am guessing here, but those names and other AAs may have benefitted academically from a PG year because most of them probably didn't need it to compete athletically.

There are cases where hold backs might be different story as pointed out, but you're right that life is all about working hard and overcoming obstacles to succeed. Life can be brutally unfair, but buck up and try harder. No quarter given, no mercy shown.
The main benefit of a PG year is maturity all around; social, emotional, mental and physical. Same for holding back and repeating. These college coaches aren't idiots, they know what an early bloomer looks like and they know how old the kids are that they are recruiting. By sophomore or junior year in high school it all evens out. Many top D1 players are kids that were heldback or simply old for their grade. They just continued to progress throughout high school and college.
All of the PGs above are the same story which is why so many college coaches direct players in that direction. What college coach wouldn't want a player to develop emotionally, socially, mentally and physically for another year before coming to college particularly at a boarding school. They will join the college team in a much better chance to succeed at every level. And if you are a good enough high school player, there are scholarships galore at prep schools for PGs even for the late bloomers.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

thetruth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:34 pm Pannell, Myles Jones, Gutterding, etc, etc... and numerous other AAs all did a PG year. As well as many great successful business people, coaches, teachers, parents, etc, etc...
I suppose you guys all think Bill Belichick and his parents were cheaters because he did a PG year at Andover.
Sorry folks, life isn't a level playing field. You can either complain about it or work hard to prevail.
Myles and Guterding were late scratches already headed to Duke. Kavanaugh was a late scratch to ND. Pannel was noticed late and went to Prep School to improve his outcome. Their club lacrosse days and recruitment were over when they went to Prep school.
Last edited by Typical Lax Dad on Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:56 pm
thetruth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:34 pm Pannell, Myles Jones, Gutterding, etc, etc... and numerous other AAs all did a PG year. As well as many great successful business people, coaches, teachers, parents, etc, etc...
I suppose you guys all think Bill Belichick and his parents were cheaters because he did a PG year at Andover.
Sorry folks, life isn't a level playing field. You can either complain about it or work hard to prevail.
Myles and Guterding were late scratches already headed to Duke. Kavanaugh was a late scratch to ND. Pannel was noticed late and went to Prep School to improve his outcome. Their club lacrosse days and recruitment were over when they went to Prep school.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
smoova
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Re: Under Armour All-Americans

Post by smoova »

thetruth wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:20 pm
smoova wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:51 pm Thanks for posting. All this time, I'd failed to recognize that 16 year-olds playing against 14 year-olds is really just the older kids "working hard to prevail." Learn something every day!
I'm talking about PGs not 14 year olds and 16 year olds.
But life ain't fair even when you're 14.
A veritable fount of wisdom! Always entertaining to see how folks rationalize their efforts to arrange "suitable" competition.
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